Of what value is life?

[tractor]

Ok, my apologies for the strange title. This is not a post about being pro-life or pro-choice, in fact it has nothing to do with the abortion topic, nor suicide, nor anything religion based.

However, I'm curious about your thought on keeping someone alive, at any cost, even though they will either spend the rest of their lives in jail, or ultimately be put to death?

Here's the back story..just a couple of miles from me, a man killed his wife and three children (all under the age of eight), before turning the gun on himself. He missed, shooting himself in the head, but is still alive. He is now in intensive care, they are doing everything they can to keep him alive.

I have an issue with this, why keep him alive, he clearly has no regard for life, has no desire to live, and is now just costing thousands of dollars that could be used for something far better. I don't agree with this, just let him die..

What do you think?

[laterbloomer]

Let him die.

[chiver78]

I'd love to just let him die. unfortunately, without a valid DNR in place the doctors and nurses have to keep him alive. 

[tractor]

Jun 5, 2022 19:01:13 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I'd love to just let him die. unfortunately, without a valid DNR in place the doctors and nurses have to keep him alive. 

I understand they have a duty to perform care, but given the circumstances, can't they get a pass? I know it's harsh, but so is shooting your wife and kids in their home.

[mollyanna58]

Jun 5, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5 tractor said:

Jun 5, 2022 19:01:13 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I'd love to just let him die. unfortunately, without a valid DNR in place the doctors and nurses have to keep him alive. 

I understand they have a duty to perform care, but given the circumstances, can't they get a pass? I know it's harsh, but so is shooting your wife and kids in their home.

I am guessing they don't have a choice, just like the police and EMTs at the site of the shooting didn't get to just say, "Nah, why bother". 

[Deleted]

Yeah, I’m good with just letting him die. I just wish he would’ve shot himself before he shot and killed his family, so they would still be alive. I always think that when somebody kills other folks before killing (or in this case trying to kill) themselves.

If he’s kept alive, we (as in taxpayers) will either pay for medical support for him, and if he ends up being a vegetable, I REALLY don’t want to pay for that particular vegetable, or we will pay the costs to take him to trial and then we’ll pay for him through the money making machines we call prisons.

This is one of the things I can be a total bitch about, when I usually try to be kind and compassionate. 

He killed his wife and children, and bungled his attempt to kill himself. Part of me would like for him to suffer, if he’s aware of his suffering. But we ain’t got money to spend on shit like that. Soooooo…….

LET HIS ASS DIE.

[chiver78]

Jun 5, 2022 19:13:24 GMT -5 mollyanna58 said:

Jun 5, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5 tractor said:

I understand they have a duty to perform care, but given the circumstances, can't they get a pass? I know it's harsh, but so is shooting your wife and kids in their home.

I am guessing they don't have a choice, just like the police and EMTs at the site of the shooting didn't get to just say, "Nah, why bother". 

 pretty much this. until you're presented with a valid DNR, you work to preserve life. 

[Deleted]

Jun 5, 2022 19:13:24 GMT -5 mollyanna58 said:

Jun 5, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5 tractor said:

I understand they have a duty to perform care, but given the circumstances, can't they get a pass? I know it's harsh, but so is shooting your wife and kids in their home.

I am guessing they don't have a choice, just like the police and EMTs at the site of the shooting didn't get to just say, "Nah, why bother". 

Despite my post, I understand that. I understand our doctors and such take an oath to do no harm, which I ASSume would include through neglect. I understand it’s not up to them to be judge and jury concerning who they try to save, and I’m actually glad it’s that way.

I’m just saying here that in this particular instance if it could happen without medical professionals harming themselves spiritually, personally and professionally, I’d be ok if this person died.

[gambler]

Let him die or help him on the way.

[Tennesseer]

tractor - has the man been convicted of his crimes yet, and if so, what was his punishment?

If not convicted of any crime(s) yet, a motto of the medical field is 'First do no harm."   So the hospital is attempting to keep him alive as that is their medical duty.

If convicted and sentenced, life in prison or death penalty?  Again I go back to the hospital.  It is not their job to let people die.  They must try and keep him alive if possible.

I understand your point.  I do.  But in letting him die, he is getting what he wanted.  It is not what the State wants.  At least not at this time.  He is entitled to a trial.  

Who knows-maybe he is brain dead.  That will upen up a whole new can of worms.

[billisonboard]

I believe life is to be honored but have asked myself "When is it okay to take a life?" And I can come up with circumstances in which I believe it is justified. I believe that almost everyone can. I believe that there is almost universal agreement if there is immediate threat to one's life that a fatal response is justified. Beyond that, I believe common ground is less and less to be found. I see in the world that there are some that have very disturbing circumstances in which they believe taking a life is justified.  Due to those beliefs, I have reached a conclusion that if I don't want them to act on their beliefs, I can't justify acting on mine (short of immediate threat).

[dannylion]

Jun 5, 2022 19:07:26 GMT -5 tractor said:

Jun 5, 2022 19:01:13 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I'd love to just let him die. unfortunately, without a valid DNR in place the doctors and nurses have to keep him alive. 

I understand they have a duty to perform care, but given the circumstances, can't they get a pass? I know it's harsh, but so is shooting your wife and kids in their home.

The problem with giving them a "pass" is that we don't give our healthcare personnel the role of being judge, jury, and executioner.  Their burden is heavy enough as it is; they don't need that on top of it.  When the rule of law is honored in this type of circumstance, the rest of us can feel more confident that it will be upheld for everyone.  That is why proposing laws to allow healthcare personnel to use personal religious reasons to deny care to a patient is such a bad idea.  "Oh, you don't practice the same flavor of (insert name of religion here) that I do?  I don't have to save your life because it would violate my religious principles."  "You are a different race/gender orientation/political party from me.  I don't have to save your life.  It would violate my religious principles."  It doesn't matter what the patient's backstory is.  That's not the doctors' job to adjudicate.  It's the job of our legal system.  

[weltschmerz]

The hospital staff is not his judge and jury.   They can't be. 

Besides, what if he's usually a good father and husband, but had a psychotic break?  Maybe angels were telling him to kill the family so they would go to heaven.  I used to see a lot of that in psychiatry. He can be given medications to bring him back to reality.
On the other hand, if he survives, he'll probably die of guilt.

[toomuchreality]

It's hard to wish good things for someone who does such horrible things.

[tractor]

I appreciate the feedback. I don't think the medical personnel should be asked to make a life/death decision. I think someone else (?), should determine to just "let him go", maybe a judge (?).

He has not been convicted, at this point, as far as I know, he is still in intensive care, and may not live anyway. The whole thing just bothers me as I cannot fathom shooting kids, let alone my own kids. That's just a whole new kind of messed up where an eternity in hell hardly seems sufficient.

I don't have an answer, but seeing/hearing the diversity of opinions has been helpful.

[Artemis Windsong]

I say die.  Delaying treatment at the scene.

A paramedic told me once that every hospital has it's own Dr. Kavorkian.  Assisted but not direct cause of death.

[toomuchreality]

I can't imagine killing anyone, certainly not my own family/children! But if I had done something horrific like that and then had botched my own suicide afterward (but had caused myself significant harm), I don't think I would want to go through the process and pain of healing, just to be sentenced to life in prison, or the death penalty.
I'd rather just have it over with.

[billisonboard]

Jun 6, 2022 15:13:48 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

I can't imagine killing anyone, certainly not my own family/children! But if I had done something horrific like that and then had botched my own suicide afterward (but had caused myself significant harm), I don't think I would want to go through the process and pain of healing, just to be sentenced to life in prison, or the death penalty.
I'd rather just have it over with.

If you do something horrific like that, I wouldn't care what you want.

[toomuchreality]

Jun 6, 2022 17:46:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 6, 2022 15:13:48 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

I can't imagine killing anyone, certainly not my own family/children! But if I had done something horrific like that and then had botched my own suicide afterward (but had caused myself significant harm), I don't think I would want to go through the process and pain of healing, just to be sentenced to life in prison, or the death penalty.
I'd rather just have it over with.

If you do something horrific like that, I wouldn't care what you want.

Good point!

[cronewitch]

Until he is tried and convicted, they need to work to save him. They don't need to work really hard like putting him ahead of someone else having problems. 
My mom was against the death penalty because even someone like his has a mother who would be upset. He doesn't have a wife or kids but still someone might care about him or want to see him suffer. 

[TheOtherMe]

It doesn't matter if he has no one who cares about him.  

He hasn't been tried and convicted.  He may end up in the state mental hospital for the rest of his life and not in prison.  

[Tiny]

I beg to differ - this does have to do with suicide and kind of with the death penalty.

It's also a slippery slope.

Why do we bother to stop people from committing suicide or provide life saving medical help if their attempt failed (someone discovered them and did something to save their life)?

Why do we bother to help people who overdose? Ok, it's not suicide but they are most likely doing something they shouldn't be doing - and I know addiction is much more complicated than what I've written here.

Will we need new triage standards to decide who gets what help at the scenes of terrible accidents? As in the people the medical personal deem will most like die anyway (or survive but live the rest of their life as an invalid or need medical care for the rest of their lives) don't get treated?

What about babies born with such terrible health issues that they may only survive a few days/weeks/months? Why do we prolong their lives?



I think it's far easier to ask our medical profession to do their best to save a life - than to ask them to MAKE A DECISION when faced with a life threatening situation.

[weltschmerz]

Jun 7, 2022 9:41:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I beg to differ - this does have to do with suicide and kind of with the death penalty.

It's also a slippery slope.

Why do we bother to stop people from committing suicide or provide life saving medical help if their attempt failed (someone discovered them and did something to save their life)?

Why do we bother to help people who overdose? Ok, it's not suicide but they are most likely doing something they shouldn't be doing - and I know addiction is much more complicated than what I've written here.

Will we need new triage standards to decide who gets what help at the scenes of terrible accidents? As in the people the medical personal deem will most like die anyway (or survive but live the rest of their life as an invalid or need medical care for the rest of their lives) don't get treated?

What about babies born with such terrible health issues that they may only survive a few days/weeks/months? Why do we prolong their lives?



I think it's far easier to ask our medical profession to do their best to save a life - than to ask them to MAKE A DECISION when faced with a life threatening situation.

Many people who overdose are just ordinary, hard-working people who were infortunate enough to get hurt, like in a car accident. They get hooked on opiates from their doctors, and then they can't get any more, so they turn to the streets because now they're horribly addicted. Subsequently, they can get a hot dose with fentanyl and they overdose.

That's why we should bother to help them.  They're just like you and me.  I've read some absolutely heartbreaking stories.

[thyme4change]

If we are denying treatment to people who are "doing something wrong" - what about poor eating habits, or when smoking causes lung cancer, or maybe just not working out or whatever.

That said - I agree that maybe we should let this guy go. I'm not a 'save them at all costs' person - which is why my Mom made me her medical POA. She knows I will pull the plug when it is time.

[billisonboard]

Jun 7, 2022 9:41:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I beg to differ - this does have to do with suicide and kind of with the death penalty.

It's also a slippery slope.

Why do we bother to stop people from committing suicide or provide life saving medical help if their attempt failed (someone discovered them and did something to save their life)?

Why do we bother to help people who overdose? Ok, it's not suicide but they are most likely doing something they shouldn't be doing - and I know addiction is much more complicated than what I've written here.

Will we need new triage standards to decide who gets what help at the scenes of terrible accidents? As in the people the medical personal deem will most like die anyway (or survive but live the rest of their life as an invalid or need medical care for the rest of their lives) don't get treated?

What about babies born with such terrible health issues that they may only survive a few days/weeks/months? Why do we prolong their lives?



I think it's far easier to ask our medical profession to do their best to save a life - than to ask them to MAKE A DECISION when faced with a life threatening situation.

We won't need new standards because that is already taken into account when necessary.

In advanced triage, specially trained doctors, nurses and paramedics may decide that some seriously injured people should not receive advanced care because they are unlikely to survive. It is used to divert scarce resources away from patients with little chance of survival in order to increase the chances for others with higher likelihoods.link

[tractor]

Quick follow-up. The husband has survived and upon release from the hospital, he was arrested and charged with 21 felony counts including capital murder. No word yet if there will be a trial, but he will spend the rest of his life in jail.

[weltschmerz]

Jun 7, 2022 16:57:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

If we are denying treatment to people who are "doing something wrong" - what about poor eating habits, or when smoking causes lung cancer, or maybe just not working out or whatever.

That said - I agree that maybe we should let this guy go. I'm not a 'save them at all costs' person - which is why my Mom made me her medical POA. She knows I will pull the plug when it is time.

Can you be my POA too?  DS said he'll do anything and everything to keep me alive.
He'll probably keep my corpse in the attic, like Norman Bates did with his mother in Psycho.

He loves me, dontcha know?

[tractor]

Jun 17, 2022 23:38:33 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jun 7, 2022 16:57:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

If we are denying treatment to people who are "doing something wrong" - what about poor eating habits, or when smoking causes lung cancer, or maybe just not working out or whatever.

That said - I agree that maybe we should let this guy go. I'm not a 'save them at all costs' person - which is why my Mom made me her medical POA. She knows I will pull the plug when it is time.

Can you be my POA too?  DS said he'll do anything and everything to keep me alive.
He'll probably keep my corpse in the attic, like Norman Bates did with his mother in Psycho.

He loves me, dontcha know?

Do you have an ex? My dad wanted to put my mother as his PO (they've been divorced for 30+ years), because he knew she would pull the plug just to be done with him 😊

[TheOtherMe]

Jun 17, 2022 19:54:50 GMT -5 tractor said:

Quick follow-up. The husband has survived and upon release from the hospital, he was arrested and charged with 21 felony counts including capital murder. No word yet if there will be a trial, but he will spend the rest of his life in jail.

I don't think he spends the rest of his life in jail unless there is a trial or plea deal.  

He also can claim he is mentally incompetent and spend his life in a mental health institution.  

Just because he's now in prison,  doesn't mean it's over in the judicial system.  

[weltschmerz]

Jun 18, 2022 7:56:51 GMT -5 tractor said:

Jun 17, 2022 23:38:33 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Can you be my POA too?  DS said he'll do anything and everything to keep me alive.
He'll probably keep my corpse in the attic, like Norman Bates did with his mother in Psycho.

He loves me, dontcha know?

Do you have an ex? My dad wanted to put my mother as his PO (they've been divorced for 30+ years), because he knew she would pull the plug just to be done with him 😊

I do, but he lives in a different country. He'll probabably die before I do, as he has severe COPD.