How to be a good friend? (mild relationship drama)

[adela76]

Tonight, my friend Mary called me to complain about a conversation she had with her new boyfriend, John.  John is feeling down because his knee hurts.  He injured it awhile ago, and his doctor told him this week that his knee might not get completely better.  Mary has told me that she is feeling hurt, because yesterday John said she wasn't sympathetic enough about his injury, but she was just trying to give him space to process the news on his own. This is how Mary recounted the latest conversation to me:

John: Yesterday, you didn't seem to care about the doctor's bad news about my knee.
Mary: I do care!  I listened and was sympathetic when you told me what the doctor said.  I wanted to give you space to process and not hover and be annoying.
John: Yeah, you listened, but sometimes I want you to do something to show that you care about me!
Mary: Ok, what can I do to show you that I care?
John: You could do something nice for me, like drop by my place to surprise me with some groceries this weekend.
Mary: I'm not going to buy you groceries because you tell me to buy you groceries!  
John: I'm not telling you to by me groceries.  I'm just saying that that would be a way to show you care.
(Mary, an aside to me: I'm not going to surprise him with groceries. That's silly, I might not buy the right stuff. He should just ask me to buy him groceries and give me a list if that's what he needs.  But I don't even know if I want to buy him groceries, if he's going to be so demanding about it.)
Mary: I want to show you that I care, but you aren't telling me what you need. 
John: I don't want to have to tell you exactly what to do, then it doesn't feel like you really care.  It doesn't have to be groceries - I just want you to do something caring and spontaneous.

Mary: I don't want to play guessing games and try to figure out what gesture you want me to do to show that I care. Just tell me what you need.


Mary says to me:
    John is being unreasonable and not telling me what he wants, but expects me to read his mind.
    Mary is clearly asking John to be direct with her, and he's just telling her she doesn't do enough and that she should be doing more for him.

I wasn't there, I don't know exactly what was said.  But based on her description, I can at least imagine that John might see it this way:
    John is clearly describing to Mary how she can show that she cares about him, and she's not listening.
    Mary is being unreasonable and just shooting down everything he says, but he's just trying to explain his perspective.


I try to, very gently, suggest to Mary that John might see things differently.  Mary thinks I'm arguing just to be difficult and I should be more supportive.  I haven't met John yet.  It's driving me crazy that she won't even consider what I'm saying about John as a possibility.

What should I do now?
Probably nothing.  But I'm concerned that Mary's stubbornness might be hurting the relationship, which otherwise has a lot of positive things, and as a friend I think I should try to help her see his perspective.  I'm also concerned that I'm giving John the benefit of the doubt too much, and Mary could be 100% right that John is moody and unreasonable and as a friend I should just support her.  

WWYD?

[tallguy]

Nothing.  They're both idiots, apparently, and if they can't figure this out they ain't got a shot anyway.  Being in the middle is bad enough even if you are dealing with smart people. 

[giramomma]

How new is the new boyfriend? For me that would make a difference.

Generally, I fall on team Mary, in terms of directness. (And, to me personally, caring and spontaneous isn't concrete enough. That could be quite a moving target.)

But, context matters. I also think length of relationship matters. So, for me there are exceptions to directness. But, learning those comes with time, and depends on the situation.

What would I do? Nothing. Change the subject or set a boundary if Mary wants to keep chatting about this. I don't really talk about my marriage IRL with anyone anymore, except my therapist.

[Deleted]

I'm all for transparency. If you want something, tell me. I'm not going to "surprise" you with something you don't want or like.

It may be mismatched expectations. My Ex did NOT like to be surprised by Christmas or birthday gifts. He'd tell me what to get him. Not very romantic, but OK. He also preferred that method with me- tell me what you want and I'll get it. I liked surprises and was willing to take the risk that it might not be exactly what I wanted but he didn't work that way.

[finnime]

Myself, if I were Mary's friend, I would make vague supportive statements such as, it's hard to show someone you care if they don't let you know what that looks like. Or, yes, he sounds like he expects you to be a magician; it's hard.

If I were Mary I'd take away that caring to John is a spontaneous display and go with that. Maybe get or give him a massage for stress relief, or offer to step and fetch for a day while his knee hurts.

As me, I wonder if John is the needy type or just irritable because he's in some pain. I appreciate Mary's need for specific direction but wonder if she's too new in the relationship to anticipate well.

[Artemis Windsong]

The easy gift would be lunch or dinner sandwich brought in for both of them.

If this is a long relationship and she knows his grocery shopping items and schedule, she could step in if he cannot walk or get himself to a grocery store for preordered pick up.

I see his asking as manipulation which can escalate as the relationship goes forward.

[raeoflyte]

I would do nothing.

But I'd think they need to discuss this more when it isn't so emotional.

He likes spontaneous gifts. Dh is like this and I really try to get him a coffee when I go out for stuff.

She likes being direct. So in the moment she should ask him how she can support him best.

And I'm going to add that I love other people's problems. They're so easy.

Last night I tried to talk to dh about how burned out I'm feeling. He jumped right in (not quite interrupting) to commiserate that everyone feels like that. Which is 100% not what I wanted from the conversation. But bringing it up then was likely to start a fight so I just got in a tub and went to bed. I will try harder in the future to be more direct that I need him to just listen.

[nidena]

This is not your circus and not your monkeys.

I would say to Mary.  "Mary, I'm your friend but this is between you and John."

[swamp]

John sounds like a nightmare to me.  Tell me what you want.  

[adela76]

May 21, 2022 8:45:13 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I would do nothing.

But I'd think they need to discuss this more when it isn't so emotional.

He likes spontaneous gifts. Dh is like this and I really try to get him a coffee when I go out for stuff.

She likes being direct. So in the moment she should ask him how she can support him best.

And I'm going to add that I love other people's problems. They're so easy.

Last night I tried to talk to dh about how burned out I'm feeling. He jumped right in (not quite interrupting) to commiserate that everyone feels like that. Which is 100% not what I wanted from the conversation. But bringing it up then was likely to start a fight so I just got in a tub and went to bed. I will try harder in the future to be more direct that I need him to just listen.

That's such a good way to think about it!!

I really appreciate the comments, because, while I knew that there was room for ambiguity, I thought John was being pretty clear about what he wanted, even if it was outside Mary's comfort zone, and Mary just needed to decide what she was willing to do and not willing to do.  So obvious when it isn't me, lol!

More people are team Mary than I expected, which is a good reality check for me.  I invited her out to dinner tonight.  I'm going to listen and be sympathetic.  I'm going to ask if she wants to hear a different perspective, and respect it if she says no.  When I've had enough John talk, I'll be direct about it and say I'd like to talk about something else.  

Thanks everyone for the mini-therapy session, lol.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Here’s my take…..I think this is what John was asking, and somewhat understand.

John’s knee hurts, which makes doing stupid stuff much more difficult than it should be.  That includes grocery shopping, which is the absolute worst thing to do when a joint hurts.  So I *think* John was asking for help, hoping Mary would volunteer.  ‘Hey, I’m hitting the grocery store, do you need anything?’  

She could have been more direct, because her thinking he needed to process this IMO gave that look that she was backing away from someone who is becoming disabled.  Her ‘wanting him to process’ looks different from the other side.

However, I agree that they are both idiots.  

[dannylion]

Is there no grocery delivery where John lives?  If there is grocery delivery where John lives, John could solve his own problem.  

[NoNamePerson]

May 21, 2022 16:23:21 GMT -5 dannylion said:

Is there no grocery delivery where John lives?  If there is grocery delivery where John lives, John could solve his own problem.  

I am under the impression that John would need someone to come dial the number for him. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 21, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

May 21, 2022 16:23:21 GMT -5 dannylion said:

Is there no grocery delivery where John lives?  If there is grocery delivery where John lives, John could solve his own problem.  

I am under the impression that John would need someone to come dial the number for him. 

It is nice to be asked.  John used groceries as an example, bu5 it could have been take out,or just an eat to listen to him process.  Instead, his gf exited stage right.  

[dannylion]

May 21, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

May 21, 2022 16:23:21 GMT -5 dannylion said:

Is there no grocery delivery where John lives?  If there is grocery delivery where John lives, John could solve his own problem.  

I am under the impression that John would need someone to come dial the number for him. 

Good point.  

I would have had some respect for John if he had simply been straightforward and asked Mary if she would mind picking up some groceries for him while he figured out the logistics of his new status.  Whining and claiming that her failure to read his mind means she does not care about him is gaslighting and a dick move.  It is also a red flag of which Mary might want to take note.  

[giramomma]

"I want you to do something spontaneous" is not clear.

To me, it is no more clear than when the kids ask what's for dinner and DH says "Food."

When the kids are looking for a clear answer, DH's response upsets them. Because they then complain about the "food" response DH gives them.

There's so much we don't know.

My MIL has had a bum knee for I think a decade. She's determined not to get knee replacement surgery, even though that's where it's going, per her drs. She's admitted both to me. We've never had a conversation like OP and her boyfriend. When my inlaws need help they say "we need help lugging water softener salt around."

Now, my mom and I. I've actually given up trying to convince her that I care. I do care. My mom's expectation is not only that I read her mind on what she needs, but I'm also supposed to know what exactly she's willing to relinquish control on so that I can help her.  If she isn't willing to relinquish control, I'm supposed to repeatedly ask her to to allow me to help her. All of course, on her time schedule, as mine doesn't matter. That's what makes her feel cared for and important.  But, I don't.  So, I'm an uncaring, unfeeling person with no capabilities for empathy. She''s told me as much.

[Happy prose]

I think John is a big baby. Tell him to call his mother.

[Tiny]

LOL! I have baggage - I am an "asker" who grew up with "guessers" who gave me a lot of grief because I was unable to properly learn how to pretend to be a guesser. When I was a kid - I seriously thought everyone else was psychic and I was the only one who wasn't. I couldn't ever seem to figure out what people actually meant when they said certain stuff. (if someone says they don't want X - do they really mean they don't want X or does it mean they DO want X and they want me to do/get it for them. and is X what they actually want or is X a code word for something else??) 

With that personal history -

If John was my boyfriend (and I am assuming he is a "guesser" who has been pushed to a limit and has actually attempted to "ask" for something and may be feeling bad about doing that - because "asking" for a "guesser" is rude and bad.) - I would "decode" what he asked for like this:

Does His sore knee keep him from standing/walking - as in - is preparing a meal (or doing laundry or keeping his place tidy) a challenge? It might be. Does his sore knee make driving difficult or a challenge (getting to the grocery/laundromat/shoppingj could be slow and painful). Has John NOT been getting a paycheck because he can't work?
A "yes" to any of those questions I asked myself inside my head would determine how I would react and what I would do.   Based on what I think might help John (the questions I asked myself about the situation)  I might attempt a round of 20 questions  with John to see if I can suss out what he really wants (because as a "guesser" he might not be 100% comfy coming out and saying what he wants.   I might also try to foster some "trust"  and let him know  I'm not good at "guessing" but I do want help him (because I LIKE him...). 

I'm guessing  Mary may lean towards being an "asker"  and John leans towards being a "guesser" - and neither one of them is playing "20 Questions" very well.

 

And since I didn't answer the OP's actual question -   I think I would point Mary to  google "asker/guesser" (or I would do it so I could explain it to Mary in a nice way) and see if that helps her to find a way to better communicate with John.       

My BFF since High School - is a hardcore "guesser"  and I'm a hardcore (aka total clueless about social stuff)  "asker" -   we had a falling out in HS  and  it took a very unpleasant and uncomfortable heart to heart to resolve what was a minor thing - made really Awful by our asker/guesser  natures.    Thankfully we both liked each other enough (as friends) to be open minded enough to deal with the two dramatically different ways we deal with the world.   Neither of us "changed" all that much -  but we did "change" enough to trust that neither of us is intentionally being hurtful - when we get into a sticky "guesser/asker" complicated situation.         And that is how we've managed to remain really good friends (and can be quite the dynamic duo when we work on something together....  ) 

[happyhoix]

I would just stay out of it. Be a good friend and listen to her vent but don’t offer suggestions. If you say anything negative about the BF, sure enough they’ll straighten things out, get married, and your GF will remember those negative things you said about her spouse for EVER. Better to not get involved. Most likely she’s just interested in someone listening to her problems, anyway.

You’re only hearing one side of the story, anyway. She may be complaining that he isn’t specific, but he may not want to specifically ask, but is dropping very broad hints. For instance, “Really craving that Moose Munch ice cream I love but it’s too painful to go to the grocery to get it right now - oh well.” He may be hoping she’ll pick up on these sideways requests. She may be one of those people who need things spelled out in concrete words for them. It’s up to the two of them to decide if they can continue on together.

[Deleted]

May 22, 2022 14:00:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

LOL! I have baggage - I am an "asker" who grew up with "guessers" who gave me a lot of grief because I was unable to properly learn how to pretend to be a guesser. When I was a kid - I seriously thought everyone else was psychic and I was the only one who wasn't. I couldn't ever seem to figure out what people actually meant when they said certain stuff. (if someone says they don't want X - do they really mean they don't want X or does it mean they DO want X and they want me to do/get it for them. and is X what they actually want or is X a code word for something else??) 

With that personal history -

If John was my boyfriend (and I am assuming he is a "guesser" who has been pushed to a limit and has actually attempted to "ask" for something and may be feeling bad about doing that - because "asking" for a "guesser" is rude and bad.) - I would "decode" what he asked for like this:

Does His sore knee keep him from standing/walking - as in - is preparing a meal (or doing laundry or keeping his place tidy) a challenge? It might be. Does his sore knee make driving difficult or a challenge (getting to the grocery/laundromat/shoppingj could be slow and painful). Has John NOT been getting a paycheck because he can't work?
A "yes" to any of those questions I asked myself inside my head would determine how I would react and what I would do.   Based on what I think might help John (the questions I asked myself about the situation)  I might attempt a round of 20 questions  with John to see if I can suss out what he really wants (because as a "guesser" he might not be 100% comfy coming out and saying what he wants.   I might also try to foster some "trust"  and let him know  I'm not good at "guessing" but I do want help him (because I LIKE him...). 

I'm guessing  Mary may lean towards being an "asker"  and John leans towards being a "guesser" - and neither one of them is playing "20 Questions" very well.

 

And since I didn't answer the OP's actual question -   I think I would point Mary to  google "asker/guesser" (or I would do it so I could explain it to Mary in a nice way) and see if that helps her to find a way to better communicate with John.       

My BFF since High School - is a hardcore "guesser"  and I'm a hardcore (aka total clueless about social stuff)  "asker" -   we had a falling out in HS  and  it took a very unpleasant and uncomfortable heart to heart to resolve what was a minor thing - made really Awful by our asker/guesser  natures.    Thankfully we both liked each other enough (as friends) to be open minded enough to deal with the two dramatically different ways we deal with the world.   Neither of us "changed" all that much -  but we did "change" enough to trust that neither of us is intentionally being hurtful - when we get into a sticky "guesser/asker" complicated situation.         And that is how we've managed to remain really good friends (and can be quite the dynamic duo when we work on something together....  ) 

Interesting. I’ve never thought about it in terms of asker and guesser. Mister admitted early on in our relationships that he doesn’t catch hints that are really subtle requests. It’s true, he really doesn’t. But a straightforward request, he will do what’s asked of him, no problem. 

Me, I often act without being directly asked to. That is a dynamic I became aware of when DD and I were having a difficult relationship. I realized that all she had to do was tell me about a problem, and I’d try to fix it if I could. I had to make a conscious effort to not do that, because I was enabling her without her even asking me to do anything.

I guess it’s just my nature though, because I still do it in small ways with Mister. Like one time we were talking while he was at work, he’d had a difficult day and said he wanted to come home and just sit on the couch and drink beer. It was odd because he doesn’t even really drink beer, the only time he might want a cold beer is when he’s been working in the yard. When he got off work, I called and told him to just come on home, I’d already gone and bought him some beer. He was surprised (but happy) because just like he doesn’t “get” hints, he doesn’t give them either. If he wants me to do something, he just asks me, so what he said wasn’t a subtle request, he was just talking.

I think an important part of the early dating stages is getting to know each other. If 2 people are already getting on each other’s nerves because of their differences or the way they each communicate early in the game, maybe that’s a sign they aren’t a good fit. I know I wouldn’t be running in circles trying to figure out how to deal with someone that’s already getting on my nerves when I’ve only known them a few months.

And that’s probably what I would tell Mary if she’s my friend. I understand that groceries wasn’t really the point the BF was trying to make, but I think the OP said Mary might not have bought groceries even if he’d asked, which to me, means she might not even like him that much. So why even go through the angst and moan and groan to me about somebody you don’t like or know well enough to buy a few groceries for to make things a little easier for them while they are dealing with a painful health issue? But that’s just me.

[CCL]

And I'm over here thinking, doesn't everyone's knee hurt? I must be getting old lol.

Sorry, but John sounds like a crybaby to me. If he needs something, just ask.

[nidena]

I was confused by the whole Asker/Guesser thing and then I realized it's just another name for Low-Context/High-Context Culture--something I learned about in International Business.

[zibazinski]

Well, I’m on team John. It’s a love language thing. He has asked for her to show she cares and she failed. They both need to give a little. But if she does care or just considers him a pita crybaby then she needs to decide if she’s willing to do some things that make him feel loved. Lawsy, it’s like she’s the man and he’s the woman. How bizarre. I myself can’t imagine not helping out my female friends, let alone someone I call my boyfriend. It’s never occurred to her that he might need some help?

[giramomma]

I don't think it's an issue of whether or not he might need some help.

I think the question is in the "how."

I know my mom needs help. She still needs to get cataract surgery on one of her eyes. I told her to get something scheduled right away after Dad died, and I would take off of work to get her to the appointment and follow up the next day.

Mom said "No. I'm not ready. I will schedule it when I am ready." 

Well, mom didn't listen to me. She still has to get her surgery done. I had to prioritize my cancer treatment and now, my nuclear family.

I'm not going to sit and beg her every week, "Mom, please schedule your surgery so that I can take care of you." That's what she wants. Mom is upset with me because she has another health thing that should be dealt with. But, because I'm not on her case like she's my 10 year old child, with the reminding, the follow up, the help with the problem solving to get the issue fixed..well, I'm not helping mom.

And now, mom has multiple data points that she doesn't get any help. I mean, it is true, but not really.

My mom also bitches constantly when she gets help. Because it's only "help" if it's done the way she wants it, when she wants it.

I don't even know how it's possible to piss off senior groups that provide help. But, she's managed to do it. Like, volunteers won't deal with her anymore and head of organizations are referring her to other groups.

I think my mom has also been "that customer" and can't get help from businesses. Think about it. It's getting to the point where putting up with mom isn't worth the money folks will make off of her.

Why would one offer to help someone if all they are going to do is complain about how "wrong" it is? What if John has been harsh with Mary or insulted her in the past? Is he still owed the help?

This is my experience with trying to help someone who expects mind reading and offers no clear communication. It sounds like others have a different experience. But, our past does color us.

[TheOtherMe]

I fired my last client when I was a volunteer rep payee.  She was a PITA constantly.  She didn't follow the program rules.  

When a person is in the program, they agree: 

1.  not to open a credit card b
2.  not to open a different bank account
3.  not to move without letting the program know

She did all of those things more than once.  I was also going through my not yet diagnosed gall bladder problem and I could not deal with her problems any more, so I told the agency I quit.  

When a volunteer took care of the bills, etc., it was free to the client.  If the agency did it, it cost $40 per month.  They didn't charge when I started but as the state cut their funding, something had to give.

I also fired the client who said I would give my mother priority over her after she moved here.  She complained that I was no longer spending enough time with her.  She complained so much that she was kicked out of the program and had to find someone on her own.

So I get what giramomma is talking about.

You can't help people who do not want to be helped and volunteers do not have to put up with it.  I wanted to help people.  Everyone else I had worked with had died.  None caused drama.  They were a pleasure to visit in the nursing home.