Another SL payment is coming

[Ava]

I'm with you jerseygirl

I would love to see an overhaul of the student loan and the healthcare industries.
But I'm not confident it will happen.

I'm afraid Biden is playing politics with us, student loan borrowers, just stringing us along until the mid-term and then he'll drop us like a hot potato. I wouldn't be surprised. And I voted for him.

[Ava]

I have a coworker who's son recently graduated.
My coworker is in the same boat as me; immigrant, minority, arrived here in his 30s, had to take student loans to get an education and get a better job.
Some people criticize older students for taking on loans, but I was a cashier and he was a security guard before we graduated. How do you get ahead with that sort of jobs? Then if you don't get an education it's also your fault that you didn't improve your lot in life.

Anyway, he has big student loans like me, and his son is first generation American. So his son wanted to go to university, my coworker was very supportive but absolutely could not pay for it.
So he helped his son get as many grants and scholarships as possible, and take loans for the rest.
Now that his son has graduated, he's moved back home with my coworker.
My coworker says he could not help with expenses, but he's now giving his son room and board for free, so son can pay off the loans.

[Deleted]

The digression on MDs was interesting even if OT and I wanted to add to that after some thought. There's plenty of room in the medical profession for docs who are not rocket scientists- birthing the average baby, writing prescriptions, well child visits. I chose my OB because a friend who asked all the nurses she knew who was good recommended him. He turned out to be an expert in high-risk pregnancies, which mine was not (and a graduate of the University of Istanbul's Medical school). The nurses know.

The rock stars from the elite schools do research that benefits the rest of us. I don't need a rock star to look over my bloodwork and renew my one prescription. I do have a cardiologist and if anyone wants to cut I'll make sure I get someone with a sterling reputation. Same if, heaven forbid, I were diagnosed with maybe-survivable cancer or ha done of the ugly cases of COVID.

So, I think it depends on what you're dealing with. Most docs will work for a group practice, which are increasingly bought up by hospitals, and will do well but not enough to justify $200K in student loan debt. My sister is one- U. of Akron, Ohio undergrad, Ohio State Medical School, small loans (and a very hard-working husband who supported her). She's comfortably retired now.

Regardless of major, you need to do a realistic estimate of the change to your income potential vs. the loan repayments. And, sadly, all bets are off if you drop out.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 7, 2022 7:20:38 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

The digression on MDs was interesting even if OT and I wanted to add to that after some thought. There's plenty of room in the medical profession for docs who are not rocket scientists- birthing the average baby, writing prescriptions, well child visits. I chose my OB because a friend who asked all the nurses she knew who was good recommended him. He turned out to be an expert in high-risk pregnancies, which mine was not (and a graduate of the University of Istanbul's Medical school). The nurses know.

The rock stars from the elite schools do research that benefits the rest of us. I don't need a rock star to look over my bloodwork and renew my one prescription. I do have a cardiologist and if anyone wants to cut I'll make sure I get someone with a sterling reputation. Same if, heaven forbid, I were diagnosed with maybe-survivable cancer or ha done of the ugly cases of COVID.

So, I think it depends on what you're dealing with. Most docs will work for a group practice, which are increasingly bought up by hospitals, and will do well but not enough to justify $200K in student loan debt. My sister is one- U. of Akron, Ohio undergrad, Ohio State Medical School, small loans (and a very hard-working husband who supported her). She's comfortably retired now.

Regardless of major, you need to do a realistic estimate of the change to your income potential vs. the loan repayments. And, sadly, all bets are off if you drop out.

Given medical school tuitions, even at state schools, it is almost impossible to have less than $200k in debts. My son graduated from our state medical school in 2019. Tuition was about $42k. Add in living expenses and other fees and it was $60k. No other option was cheaper, and they do not give merit scholarships.

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2022 7:41:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Given medical school tuitions, even at state schools, it is almost impossible to have less than $200k in debts. My son graduated from our state medical school in 2019. Tuition was about $42k. Add in living expenses and other fees and it was $60k. No other option was cheaper, and they do not give merit scholarships.

Just out of curiosity, how much extra for the Stanford/Harvard/Columbia?

And I did another interesting calculation- I have my SS records including Medicare wages (which are equal to total wages for 1991 and subsequent- before that they were capped at the SS level). I accumulated them to today at 6% interest and got $15 million. Dayum, where did it all go? Someone starting out today with $200K worth of loans would have a much bigger future earnings number, of course. My job started in 1975 at $10,000 and my highest-earning years were 2007-2012, all over $200K. So, respectable but not California Cosmetic Surgeon level.

In considering whether or not college is worth taking on loans or "upgrading" to a top-tier school I'd look at the change in income potential compared to the cost of the loan. As Ava noted, going from minimum-wage to white-collar professional it can make sense. Going from a decent state U. to Harvard Medical school when you just want to heal people but don't want to set the world on fire may not.

[minnesotapaintlady]

I do think the prestige can be worth it for some degrees, certainly Harvard Law is going to take you far over an unknown, it's the undergrad I have trouble with. Does anyone care where you did your undergrad if your graduate work was at an Ivy?   Why add 250-300K for undergrad on top of 200-300K for graduate work?

[Cookies Galore]

Is everyone forgetting the Ivies give out a shit ton of grants and scholarships? Not everyone is paying sticker price for their name brand education. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't have been so afraid to apply to Penn. Now, whatever mistakes students are making by taking out massive loans, I don't have the answer, but a lot of private colleges do have money to burn, so that fancy education isn't always a life doomed to loans.

[TheOtherMe]

When I was applying for grad school for my MBA, my professors had me apply to 5 schools.  Two were top rated, one being Wharton.  

I was accepted to all 5 schools.  Back then I may have been admitted because I was a woman.  I don't know.  

I did not have the self confidence to go to the two top rated schools so I picked Colorado.  The professors were not happy with me.  

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2022 11:04:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I do think the prestige can be worth it for some degrees, certainly Harvard Law is going to take you far over an unknown, it's the undergrad I have trouble with. Does anyone care where you did your undergrad if your graduate work was at an Ivy?   Why add 250-300K for undergrad on top of 200-300K for graduate work?

The problem is that if you want to get into Harvard Law you're far more likely to get accepted with an undergrad degree from an equally prestigious school.  This is also true for some of the less-marketable fields (Art History, English Literature) where you need a graduate degree to get any kind of decent job (or teach at university level) and to get into grad school, especially a top-tier one, your undergrad degree has to be from a well-regarded school.  The numbers may not make sense unless you're a trust fund baby and don't have to borrow.  

Apr 7, 2022 12:12:53 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

When I was applying for grad school for my MBA, my professors had me apply to 5 schools. Two were top rated, one being Wharton.

I was accepted to all 5 schools. Back then I may have been admitted because I was a woman. I don't know.

I did not have the self confidence to go to the two top rated schools so I picked Colorado.  The professors were not happy with me.

BIL, who is now almost 80, was a smart HS student back in Ohio when his teachers encouraged him to apply to Harvard.  He got in.  He went to Ohio State because he liked Ohio and saw no need to go elsewhere.  BIL and SIL (my Ex's sister) became VERY successful entrepreneurs and could buy and sell us all.  When their son, equally bright, was talking with his HS counselor about colleges and mention this, the counselor said wryly, "You weren't thinking about future generations when you made that decision, were you?"  Nephew got into Middlebury with an English Literature degree and later got an MBA at Georgetown so he did OK.

[TheOtherMe]

Had I gone to Wharton, guess who would have been one of my classmates?  Yes, tfg

[Cookies Galore]

Apr 7, 2022 12:30:07 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Had I gone to Wharton, guess who would have been one of my classmates?  Yes, tfg

Fuck that. Just think of all the journalists reaching out to you for a quote about tfg. Lol

[TheOtherMe]

I could have told them he was last in the class.  I'm sure it was common knowledge.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 7, 2022 12:24:16 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Apr 7, 2022 11:04:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I do think the prestige can be worth it for some degrees, certainly Harvard Law is going to take you far over an unknown, it's the undergrad I have trouble with. Does anyone care where you did your undergrad if your graduate work was at an Ivy?   Why add 250-300K for undergrad on top of 200-300K for graduate work?

The problem is that if you want to get into Harvard Law you're far more likely to get accepted with an undergrad degree from an equally prestigious school.  This is also true for some of the less-marketable fields (Art History, English Literature) where you need a graduate degree to get any kind of decent job (or teach at university level) and to get into grad school, especially a top-tier one, your undergrad degree has to be from a well-regarded school.  The numbers may not make sense unless you're a trust fund baby and don't have to borrow.  

That got me curious.  I haven't dug too deep, so the first thing that popped up is a little old.  But the 567 graduates of the 2015 class at Harvard Law School came from 161 different undergraduate schools.  Some elites on that list, but lots and lots of state schools too.

The list is here

"This Harvard list reminded me of a conversation that I had at a college conference a year ago with a UCLA admission representative. She said that undergrads at her elite state university often assume that they will enjoy an advantage getting into the professional schools at their alma mater, but it isn’t true."

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 7, 2022 10:55:11 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Apr 7, 2022 7:41:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Given medical school tuitions, even at state schools, it is almost impossible to have less than $200k in debts. My son graduated from our state medical school in 2019. Tuition was about $42k. Add in living expenses and other fees and it was $60k. No other option was cheaper, and they do not give merit scholarships.

Just out of curiosity, how much extra for the Stanford/Harvard/Columbia?

And I did another interesting calculation- I have my SS records including Medicare wages (which are equal to total wages for 1991 and subsequent- before that they were capped at the SS level). I accumulated them to today at 6% interest and got $15 million. Dayum, where did it all go? Someone starting out today with $200K worth of loans would have a much bigger future earnings number, of course. My job started in 1975 at $10,000 and my highest-earning years were 2007-2012, all over $200K. So, respectable but not California Cosmetic Surgeon level.

In considering whether or not college is worth taking on loans or "upgrading" to a top-tier school I'd look at the change in income potential compared to the cost of the loan. As Ava noted, going from minimum-wage to white-collar professional it can make sense. Going from a decent state U. to Harvard Medical school when you just want to heal people but don't want to set the world on fire may not.

I know tuition at Duke was $80k, need to add room and board and other fees, so it would have been between 90 and 100k. I doubt the ones you are asking about were less.

A stidy was published in the New England journal of medicine about 25 years ago. It compared going to medical school, law school, or getting an mba. Except for those in the highly paid surgical specialties, there was no economic advantage to going to medical school, when you factor in opportunity costs. This is counter to the general narrative that is out there

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2022 12:55:00 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I know tuition at Duke was $80k, need to add room and board and other fees, so it would have been between 90 and 100k. I doubt the ones you are asking about were less.

A study was published in the New England journal of medicine about 25 years ago. It compared going to medical school, law school, or getting an mba. Except for those in the highly paid surgical specialties, there was no economic advantage to going to medical school, when you factor in opportunity costs. This is counter to the general narrative that is out there

Wow. It would be a tough decision if you had a kid who really had the potential to be a superstar in the medical field.

I'm not surprised on the comparisons with MBAs and law school. The doctors I know are doing fine but they're not shopping for private planes or yachts, and it's darned hard work (I couldn't do it) with a long delay till you actually start making decent money.

Is it NYU that's working towards funding medical school from their endowment so the students don't have to pay? I think that's a good move. The cost of doctors' heavy student loan burdens, not to mention medical malpractice premiums, before they have any money left to buy a house, start a family and take the occasional vacation has to be adding a lot to healthcare costs.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 7, 2022 13:39:42 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Apr 7, 2022 12:55:00 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I know tuition at Duke was $80k, need to add room and board and other fees, so it would have been between 90 and 100k. I doubt the ones you are asking about were less.

A study was published in the New England journal of medicine about 25 years ago. It compared going to medical school, law school, or getting an mba. Except for those in the highly paid surgical specialties, there was no economic advantage to going to medical school, when you factor in opportunity costs. This is counter to the general narrative that is out there

Wow. It would be a tough decision if you had a kid who really had the potential to be a superstar in the medical field.

I'm not surprised on the comparisons with MBAs and law school. The doctors I know are doing fine but they're not shopping for private planes or yachts, and it's darned hard work (I couldn't do it) with a long delay till you actually start making decent money.

Is it NYU that's working towards funding medical school from their endowment so the students don't have to pay? I think that's a good move. The cost of doctors' heavy student loan burdens, not to mention medical malpractice premiums, before they have any money left to buy a house, start a family and take the occasional vacation has to be adding a lot to healthcare costs.

Yes, nyu, my alma mater is going tuition free. Raised $600 from a donor to do this. Only costs room and board.

You also have to realize that the more lucrative specialties are more competitive for residency spots and those who go to the more prestigious schools have a higher chance in matching there. It is not only those who want to do world class research who benefit. If you want to do radiology, orthopedics, ophthalmology, your credentials matter when it comes to residency spots and eventually permanent positions in the more lucrative private practices.

It is a realize problem. Debt burden drives specialty choice. Primary care specialties pay less. Those with high debt burden make a rational choice, and it drives the shortages in some specialties. It was one reason nyu did what it did

[jerseygirl]

DS went to state med school and residency. Then fellowship at UCLA. When he had residents he said most at UCLA were ‘white collar’ from prestigious med schools. Little real life experience. At the state med school in an inner city the med students were thrown into the ER stitching up knife and gun wounds etc. He felt his state experience prepared him better for surgery (and cost less)
He won several awards from residents who appreciated his experience

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 7, 2022 16:25:46 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

DS went to state med school and residency. Then fellowship at UCLA. When he had residents he said most at UCLA were ‘white collar’ from prestigious med schools. Little real life experience. At the state med school in an inner city the med students were thrown into the ER stitching up knife and gun wounds etc. He felt his state experience prepared him better for surgery (and cost less)
He won several awards from residents who appreciated his experience

I went to nyu, a private school. Bellevue was our main teaching hospital. I doubt he saw more than I did in medical school. The Johns Hopkins hospital is in a horrible neighborhood, another private school. The Boston hospitals use Boston city hospital. All those hospitals are private. Emory uses the city hospital in Atlanta. Tulane used charity in New Orleans before it closed. There are many more examples of private medical schools having partnerships with public hospitals for training. The government likes it for cheap labor. It had nothing to do with being at a state school.

People kill to have the experience we had at Bellevue

[steph08]

Apr 7, 2022 12:00:22 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

Is everyone forgetting the Ivies give out a shit ton of grants and scholarships? Not everyone is paying sticker price for their name brand education. If I could do it over again, I wouldn't have been so afraid to apply to Penn. Now, whatever mistakes students are making by taking out massive loans, I don't have the answer, but a lot of private colleges do have money to burn, so that fancy education isn't always a life doomed to loans.

I went to a smaller private college. My mom always said that it cost my parents less for me to go there than it would have if I went to the local state school because of the amount of grants and discounts I was given. If you are reasonably smart and lower middle class, there is a lot of money floating around out there.

I did my masters online and my first employer paid for the majority of it. I worked the system there to get the $5200/yr reimbursement to stretch.

The problem for my kids is that we are most likely going to make too much money for significant aid, but we will see what happens in 10 years when my oldest is college age. I still think my Alma mater would give a good discount from when I did their online calculator.

[Deleted]

Interesting post on the Early Retirement Board: a couple gave each of their 2 kids $80K for education. Son spent less than that, used the rest for a house down payment and is a highly-successful diesel mechanic. Daughter got a 4-year degree in a biology field and has now used up her $80K but dreams of becoming a dentist. They think it will run $400K all-in. They can't fund that without endangering their retirement savings.  (She hasn't asked for it, either.)

Here's the discussion. I didn't participate since they wanted responses from people who had been there/done that.

www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/kids-in-graduate-school-113616.html

Wow. I hope none of the grandkids wants to be a dentist.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dental school is NOT cheap.  I checked out Creighton out of curiosity and they are around the $400k+ mark.   Creighton is a private university.

Looking at University of Iowa it's $225k for all four years.  So still not cheap but "cheaper" than Creighton.  

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 8, 2022 9:12:04 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dental school is NOT cheap.  I checked out Creighton out of curiosity and they are around the $400k+ mark.   Creighton is a private university.

Looking at University of Iowa it's $225k for all four years.  So still not cheap but "cheaper" than Creighton.  

Yes, that is what medical school and dental school costs. Based on the posts here, it seems most people think it is a bad choice. Not sure where we will get dentists and doctors from. Maybe import them?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Apr 8, 2022 9:33:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:12:04 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dental school is NOT cheap.  I checked out Creighton out of curiosity and they are around the $400k+ mark.   Creighton is a private university.

Looking at University of Iowa it's $225k for all four years.  So still not cheap but "cheaper" than Creighton.  

Yes, that is what medical school and dental school costs. Based on the posts here, it seems most people think it is a bad choice. Not sure where we will get dentists and doctors from. Maybe import them?

I know people attending Creighton.  I knew it was expensive but never looked up the exact price.  I figured it had to be around those numbers though.

Vet school is uber expensive too.  I've been told University of Iowa's vet program is even harder to get into than their medical school but I am not sure how much truth there is to that.

Gwen's toyed with both.  I've told her we will do what we can for undergraduate but medical or vet school would have to be on her.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 8, 2022 9:33:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:12:04 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dental school is NOT cheap.  I checked out Creighton out of curiosity and they are around the $400k+ mark.   Creighton is a private university.

Looking at University of Iowa it's $225k for all four years.  So still not cheap but "cheaper" than Creighton.  

Yes, that is what medical school and dental school costs. Based on the posts here, it seems most people think it is a bad choice. Not sure where we will get dentists and doctors from. Maybe import them?

I don't think anyone said that...


Although, the only doctor in my family got his MD paid for by the Army which seems like a good way to do it. 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 8, 2022 9:46:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:33:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yes, that is what medical school and dental school costs. Based on the posts here, it seems most people think it is a bad choice. Not sure where we will get dentists and doctors from. Maybe import them?

I don't think anyone said that...


Although, the only doctor in my family got his MD paid for by the Army which seems like a good way to do it. 

How many people are saying taking out that debt is a bad idea? There is no way to become a physician, dentist, or wet without having over 250K in debt, unless your family is rich. So if it isa bad idea, why should anyone do it.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 8, 2022 9:45:03 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:33:47 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Yes, that is what medical school and dental school costs. Based on the posts here, it seems most people think it is a bad choice. Not sure where we will get dentists and doctors from. Maybe import them?

I know people attending Creighton.  I knew it was expensive but never looked up the exact price.  I figured it had to be around those numbers though.

Vet school is uber expensive too.  I've been told University of Iowa's vet program is even harder to get into than their medical school but I am not sure how much truth there is to that.

Gwen's toyed with both.  I've told her we will do what we can for undergraduate but medical or vet school would have to be on her.

There are far fewer vet schools. Requirements are the same. It has always been said it is just as difficult if not more so to get into vet school. I know when I was premed there were about 13 vet schools compared to 100 medical schools.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 8, 2022 9:53:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:46:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I don't think anyone said that...


Although, the only doctor in my family got his MD paid for by the Army which seems like a good way to do it. 

How many people are saying taking out that debt is a bad idea? There is no way to become a physician, dentist, or wet without having over 250K in debt, unless your family is rich. So if it isa bad idea, why should anyone do it.

I literally just gave you an example of how to become a physician without all that debt.  

But, nobody has said it's not worth it to take on debt to become a physician, that's a personal decision. Heck, my kids go to private K-12. 

The only debating I've seen is the difference in the cost of elite schools over the state schools, and I said it didn't make sense to take on 250K for undergrad knowing there would be another 200K tacked on top of that. To ME it seemed like a good idea to minimize the undergrad cost.  I mean are we all supposed to just agree on what we consider an acceptable cost?  How about 600K?  Would you have considered it worth it for that? 

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 8, 2022 10:06:21 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 8, 2022 9:53:31 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

How many people are saying taking out that debt is a bad idea? There is no way to become a physician, dentist, or wet without having over 250K in debt, unless your family is rich. So if it isa bad idea, why should anyone do it.

I literally just gave you an example of how to become a physician without all that debt.  

But, nobody has said it's not worth it to take on debt to become a physician, that's a personal decision. Heck, my kids go to private K-12. 

The only debating I've seen is the difference in the cost of elite schools over the state schools, and I said it didn't make sense to take on 250K for undergrad knowing there would be another 200K tacked on top of that. To ME it seemed like a good idea to minimize the undergrad cost.  I mean are we all supposed to just agree on what we consider an acceptable cost?  How about 600K?  Would you have considered it worth it for that? 

I went to Georgetown undergrad, the medical school was the most expensive in the country. 1/2 of the class were on military scholarships. Have a good friend who did it for medical school. He was sent to NC, Washington state, Arkansas, and Virginia before his commitment was done. Was over 40 before he could get into private practice. You pay with time instead of money, your life is not your own, and you are at the whims of the military. It is not a free lunch.

If you are in between in income where aid does not cover cost of attendance and your family cannot pay, if is impossible to get through college and medical school for under $300k. That is the reality.

So your saying that everyone who is poor/middle class needs to join the military to become a physician. You do realize those options are also limited. It is not available to everyone.

[nidena]

What is funny to me is when private colleges (read: my alma mater), despite charging a poop-ton for tuition, board, and meals--it's not medical school but one year could be $40k, easily--gets bought by the state school that charges less than half that, mostly because of money mismanagement.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 8, 2022 10:15:35 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 8, 2022 10:06:21 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I literally just gave you an example of how to become a physician without all that debt.  

But, nobody has said it's not worth it to take on debt to become a physician, that's a personal decision. Heck, my kids go to private K-12. 

The only debating I've seen is the difference in the cost of elite schools over the state schools, and I said it didn't make sense to take on 250K for undergrad knowing there would be another 200K tacked on top of that. To ME it seemed like a good idea to minimize the undergrad cost.  I mean are we all supposed to just agree on what we consider an acceptable cost?  How about 600K?  Would you have considered it worth it for that? 

I went to Georgetown undergrad, the medical school was the most expensive in the country. 1/2 of the class were on military scholarships. Have a good friend who did it for medical school. He was sent to NC, Washington state, Arkansas, and Virginia before his commitment was done. Was over 40 before he could get into private practice. You pay with time instead of money, your life is not your own, and you are at the whims of the military. It is not a free lunch.

If you are in between in income where aid does not cover cost of attendance and your family cannot pay, if is impossible to get through college and medical school for under $300k. That is the reality.

So your saying that everyone who is poor/middle class needs to join the military to become a physician. You do realize those options are also limited. It is not available to everyone.

Really?  That's what you get out of my quoted statement?  


eta:  The only reason I even mentioned the military is because of your saying there was NO WAY to become a physician without debt.  Then you go on to say half your class was getting theirs paid by the military!