Another SL payment is coming

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 6, 2022 11:38:37 GMT -5 @beckaroo said:

Apr 6, 2022 10:51:43 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Well, too much credit card debt you can declare bankruptcy.  Too much mortgage you can either sell or let it go into foreclosure.

What is the option with student loans?

Either way, somebody will be losing.
When the credit cards were maxed out, was payback thought about?
When the humungous mortgage papers were signed, were the house payments thought about?
When student loans were taken out, was payback considered?

I doubt you'll find a more anti-debt person on this board than me. 

Still, you can't predict everything in life.  Jobs are lost and spouses die. People that were healthy and able to work one day may be unable to the next.  Debt that was manageable can suddenly become overwhelming.  There is NO escape from student loans like their is with other debt.  That system needs to be overhauled, it's ridiculous.  And I'm not just blaming the student loan industry.  The parents that agree to cosign on ridiculous amounts of debt (student is very limited in what they can do on their own) are just as much to blame for some of it. 

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2022 11:38:37 GMT -5 @beckaroo said:

Apr 6, 2022 10:51:43 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Well, too much credit card debt you can declare bankruptcy.  Too much mortgage you can either sell or let it go into foreclosure.

What is the option with student loans?

Either way, somebody will be losing.
When the credit cards were maxed out, was payback thought about?
When the humungous mortgage papers were signed, were the house payments thought about?
When student loans were taken out, was payback considered?

This. There is no "free". If banks take the loss they raise interest rates and their taxes decrease for the bad loans- so we all pay. It really bothered me during the housing crisis when people were walking away from the house when they had negative equity with no guilt. Purely a business decision, they said.

I do think there should be more signed disclosure with student loans as well as mortgages. For student loans: You are borrowing X. The average starting salary for graduates with your major from your college is Y. Your monthly payments starting after graduation will be Z. These loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. For mortgages, especially ARMs: "You are borrowing X. Monthly principal and interest for the next year will be Y. After a year it will adjust according to current interest rates and could go as high as Z."

Apr 6, 2022 11:22:02 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Colleges right now have no responsibility for the loans
Maybe having colleges take on the risks and management of loans would cause colleges to be more aware of the problems
Right now colleges can increase tuition and fees and they encourage kids to take these loans.

Amen to this. Right now they have nothing to lose.

[pulmonarymd]

Most of these ridiculous balances are from graduate schools. There is a limit(I think it is about 30K over 4 years) for subsidized loans for undergraduate degrees. Anything above that is typically a PLUS loan. The sky's the limit for graduate schools. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 6, 2022 13:54:44 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Most of these ridiculous balances are from graduate schools. There is a limit(I think it is about 30K over 4 years) for subsidized loans for undergraduate degrees. Anything above that is typically a PLUS loan. The sky's the limit for graduate schools. 

That's true.  The average balance for undergrad is under 30K.

Still...

I'm in another group that focuses on paying for college and with decision day coming up, some of the choices being made right now are painful. Just two from yesterday..

Duke 77K/year

Columbia 86K/year

UMD - FULL RIDE, including a stipend for books.

Came asking if 250K in debt was worth it for CS degree from Columbia.  EVERYONE said take the full ride at UMD and now they're posting asking where to get the loans above what the school would give.

Another one.  Son wants to major in Physics.

Yale - 80K

Brown - 60K

Georgia Tech - 30K

Going with Yale because GT is "too far away".  200K more and he'll probably be going to graduate school anyhow.  (To be fair, this might have been a money is no issue situation). 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

IDK about now but when I was going to college private loans were in their infancy.  You could take out a shit ton of money with little to no effort and if that wasn't enough hey have your parents apply too!  

I know someone who was in her sophomore year of school and she told me she'd already ran up $80k.

While I do think there should be more flexibility in ability to qualify for bankruptcy, I am otherwise fine with federally backed student loans having stipulations attached.  In trade interest is capped (I believe it can only go as high as 8% which is high but not the end of the world) and has limits on how much you can borrow.

Private loans are hella shady.  If you want to be private then you should have to accept the same risks as credit card companies do.  If you want to be subsidized then you should have to abide by the same regulations as the federally backed ones.

College prices would start having to come down due to pressure if you, your parents and in some cases even grandparents couldn't go into a lifetime of debt for them.  There would simply be no capital to feed the market.  I've read a few articles about that regarding colleges lately.  People are becoming more aware of cost and some colleges are having to reconsider how expensive they are if they want to remain competitive and operational.  

I also LOVE older people getting huffy saying "college is not a requirement" yet they are the ones that run society and have set up the job market as such that it's expected you have a 4 year degree just to get in the door.  Yeah yeah I know Phil says it is because people are dumb because back in his day you were an expect by physics in 4th grade which also happens to be the age you graduated from school because that's how excellent public education was  in his day. 

But come on when you think about it do most jobs that require one REALLY require one if you stop to think about the tasks involved?  Are people REALLY "dumb" like Phil claims or is this yet another method of gatekeeping certain jobs by those who have the privilege and power to set the rules?

Couldn't a HS education and job training do the same thing?  That's how it used to work until employers outsourced their training expectations onto colleges.  I had a talk with a phelbotomist at the hospital about that.  She said they used to train in house when she started. The hospital system decided that was too expensive so they outsourced it to training schools.

Now they have to wait longer to get candidates and also have a smaller pool of them because programs only accept a handful of people and not everyone can afford the price tag.  Shocker over time there has now become a shortage. 

My husband apprenticed as a press operator.  Employers didn't want to invest in people because "people leave".  Now it's people DH's age and older who have the knowledge to run the presses because they started expecting experience to be hired.  Then they went and laid them all off during COVID.  Yet again the result is now a shortage and they are having to rethink apprentice programs.

I am tired of people blaming it all on young people for being idiots.  I'm sure some are but they are not the ones propping up the system.  It's going to require a massive shift in societal thinking on every level for things to change.  I think in the next 5-10 years as we really grasp the impact COVID has had we'll start to see it. 

Yelling at 18 year olds over accusing them of being spoiled because back in your day you would have been thrilled just to have in door plumbing in your dorm solves nothing.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 6, 2022 14:24:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 6, 2022 13:54:44 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Most of these ridiculous balances are from graduate schools. There is a limit(I think it is about 30K over 4 years) for subsidized loans for undergraduate degrees. Anything above that is typically a PLUS loan. The sky's the limit for graduate schools. 

That's true.  The average balance for undergrad is under 30K.

Still...

I'm in another group that focuses on paying for college and with decision day coming up, some of the choices being made right now are painful. Just two from yesterday..

Duke 77K/year

Columbia 86K/year

UMD - FULL RIDE, including a stipend for books.

Came asking if 250K in debt was worth it for CS degree from Columbia.  EVERYONE said take the full ride at UMD and now they're posting asking where to get the loans above what the school would give.

Another one.  Son wants to major in Physics.

Yale - 80K

Brown - 60K

Georgia Tech - 30K

Going with Yale because GT is "too far away".  200K more and he'll probably be going to graduate school anyhow.  (To be fair, this might have been a money is no issue situation). 

The fact that we have to make these choices is ridiculous. We need to change the system to give everyone more of a level playing field.

I will give an alternate viewpoint. The options that schools live the Ivies, Duke, and GT give you are difficult to find at other schools. Can you do well elsewhere, sure. But they open doors and grease the wheels. There is a reason that people who are alumni want to keep the legacy admissions. There are schools where the degree pays you more than you could get elsewhere. If you are an engineering student and you were admitted to MIT, probably the best technical college in the world, would you seriously turn it down? I also believe that parents with resources have less of a need for these schools than people who have not had these experiences.

I truly believe I would have turned out differently if I went to my state school vs my alma mater. Pre-med program was better, reputation was better, and I was admitted to multiple medical schools. I also had opportunities that I would not have had as an undergraduate. But everyone is in a different situation. 

Getting into those schools is an impressive accomplishment. I do interviews for my alma mater, and i am glad I do not have to make the admission decisions since there are many qualified and impressive applicants

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2022 14:47:14 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I also LOVE older people getting huffy saying "college is not a requirement" yet they are the ones that run society and have set up the job market as such that it's expected you have a 4 year degree just to get in the door.  Yeah yeah I know Phil says it is because people are dumb because back in his day you were an expect by physics in 4th grade which also happens to be the age you graduated from school because that's how excellent public education was  in his day. 

But come on when you think about it do most jobs that require one REALLY require one if you stop to think about the tasks involved?  Are people REALLY "dumb" like Phil claims or is this yet another method of gatekeeping certain jobs by those who have the privilege and power to set the rules?

Couldn't a HS education and job training do the same thing?

I agree 100%.  Maybe you do need a degree to practice law or medicine (although those used to be apprenticeship programs, too), but administrative assistants?  Claims adjusters?  Most civil service jobs?  Even my field, the actuarial profession, has its own series of credentialing exams.  If you can master the material through self-study, why not?   Many good jobs require intelligence, a healthy work ethic and willingness to learn.  Period.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 6, 2022 14:49:02 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 6, 2022 14:24:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

That's true.  The average balance for undergrad is under 30K.

Still...

I'm in another group that focuses on paying for college and with decision day coming up, some of the choices being made right now are painful. Just two from yesterday..

Duke 77K/year

Columbia 86K/year

UMD - FULL RIDE, including a stipend for books.

Came asking if 250K in debt was worth it for CS degree from Columbia.  EVERYONE said take the full ride at UMD and now they're posting asking where to get the loans above what the school would give.

Another one.  Son wants to major in Physics.

Yale - 80K

Brown - 60K

Georgia Tech - 30K

Going with Yale because GT is "too far away".  200K more and he'll probably be going to graduate school anyhow.  (To be fair, this might have been a money is no issue situation). 

The fact that we have to make these choices is ridiculous. We need to change the system to give everyone more of a level playing field.

I will give an alternate viewpoint. The options that schools live the Ivies, Duke, and GT give you are difficult to find at other schools. Can you do well elsewhere, sure. But they open doors and grease the wheels. There is a reason that people who are alumni want to keep the legacy admissions. There are schools where the degree pays you more than you could get elsewhere. If you are an engineering student and you were admitted to MIT, probably the best technical college in the world, would you seriously turn it down? I also believe that parents with resources have less of a need for these schools than people who have not had these experiences.

I truly believe I would have turned out differently if I went to my state school vs my alma mater. Pre-med program was better, reputation was better, and I was admitted to multiple medical schools. I also had opportunities that I would not have had as an undergraduate. But everyone is in a different situation. 

Getting into those schools is an impressive accomplishment. I do interviews for my alma mater, and i am glad I do not have to make the admission decisions since there are many qualified and impressive applicants

Of course the Ivies crank out all these students who go on to make lots of money, but with less than a 5% acceptance rate they kind of start with the cream of the crop to begin with.  I read a study once that showed that those that were accepted to one of these schools and then went somewhere else for whatever reason did just as well as those that actually attended, that what it took to get in was what ultimately made them successful.  I do think for some careers the "good old boys" network can be helpful, but do you really think a CS degree at Yale is worth 250K more than a CS degree from UMD? 

And if my kid would have gotten into MIT it would have been a free ride lottery ticket, so yeah we wouldn't have turned it down.   But, there was zero chance of that happening.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 6, 2022 15:38:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 6, 2022 14:49:02 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

The fact that we have to make these choices is ridiculous. We need to change the system to give everyone more of a level playing field.

I will give an alternate viewpoint. The options that schools live the Ivies, Duke, and GT give you are difficult to find at other schools. Can you do well elsewhere, sure. But they open doors and grease the wheels. There is a reason that people who are alumni want to keep the legacy admissions. There are schools where the degree pays you more than you could get elsewhere. If you are an engineering student and you were admitted to MIT, probably the best technical college in the world, would you seriously turn it down? I also believe that parents with resources have less of a need for these schools than people who have not had these experiences.

I truly believe I would have turned out differently if I went to my state school vs my alma mater. Pre-med program was better, reputation was better, and I was admitted to multiple medical schools. I also had opportunities that I would not have had as an undergraduate. But everyone is in a different situation. 

Getting into those schools is an impressive accomplishment. I do interviews for my alma mater, and i am glad I do not have to make the admission decisions since there are many qualified and impressive applicants

Of course the Ivies crank out all these students who go on to make lots of money, but with less than a 5% acceptance rate they kind of start with the cream of the crop to begin with.  I read a study once that showed that those that were accepted to one of these schools and then went somewhere else for whatever reason did just as well as those that actually attended, that what it took to get in was what ultimately made them successful.  I do think for some careers the "good old boys" network can be helpful, but do you really think a CS degree at Yale is worth 250K more than a CS degree from UMD? 

And if my kid would have gotten into MIT it would have been a free ride lottery ticket, so yeah we wouldn't have turned it down.   But, there was zero chance of that happening.

I do, but not for the quality of instruction, but on the connections and opportunities that the Ivies provide. You are surrounded by equally smart people at the Ivies, and that can lead to some incredible opportunities. The guys who founded google were all from Stanford. They may not have found each other and done what they did if they were not in the same program.

I did my post-graduate medical training at Duke. I can tell you the quality of the experience was far better than at some average institution. The physicians I learned from remain some of the best physicians I have ever been associated with. That experience can be invaluable. In addition, the volume and type of cases made me who I am today. Not having any other physicians in my family, it was quite worthwhile. FOr people who have the advantages that come with money, I think the value is not quite the same.

[TheOtherMe]

One group of people I have issues with is people who took out loans to go to school as adults and then continued taking out loans to go to grad school.  They should have been able to understand that loans have to be paid back and have read the paperwork.  If they didn't think they could afford the payments, just like with a car loan or mortgage, the loans should not have been taken out--especially for grad school.  

Young college kids signing loan paperwork for loans in their name is different than an adult taking out student loans or signing parent plus loans.  

I worked about 4 years before I went to college.  No I didn't understand a lot about finances but I understood enough that I wanted to know about how long it was going to take to pay off my student loans and what the payments would be.  I had already paid off a car loan in those 4 years so I had some understanding of how loans worked.  My dad had to co-sign for the car loan and I remember him telling me that if that loan was not my priority he would never help me again with money.  I paid the loan off in 3 years, as was the norm then.  

I have hated the one car loan I had that was 60 months.  I ended up paying that off early too.  

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 6, 2022 16:09:56 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 6, 2022 15:38:12 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Of course the Ivies crank out all these students who go on to make lots of money, but with less than a 5% acceptance rate they kind of start with the cream of the crop to begin with.  I read a study once that showed that those that were accepted to one of these schools and then went somewhere else for whatever reason did just as well as those that actually attended, that what it took to get in was what ultimately made them successful.  I do think for some careers the "good old boys" network can be helpful, but do you really think a CS degree at Yale is worth 250K more than a CS degree from UMD? 

And if my kid would have gotten into MIT it would have been a free ride lottery ticket, so yeah we wouldn't have turned it down.   But, there was zero chance of that happening.

I do, but not for the quality of instruction, but on the connections and opportunities that the Ivies provide. You are surrounded by equally smart people at the Ivies, and that can lead to some incredible opportunities. The guys who founded google were all from Stanford. They may not have found each other and done what they did if they were not in the same program.

I did my post-graduate medical training at Duke. I can tell you the quality of the experience was far better than at some average institution. The physicians I learned from remain some of the best physicians I have ever been associated with. That experience can be invaluable. In addition, the volume and type of cases made me who I am today. Not having any other physicians in my family, it was quite worthwhile. FOr people who have the advantages that come with money, I think the value is not quite the same.

According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $250,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $5,723,074.14 in 30 years!

Now what would one pay on 250K of debt starting at 22? 

You'd have to be making a crap ton more money to come out ahead at 52.

[pulmonarymd]

You are looking at this from an entirely financial perspective. There are many other factors involved here. Not that I will be able to convince you otherwise.

From my personal experience. The medical school acceptance rate was much higher where I went to school compared to my state school. The advising was better too. The size led to more personalized advising. It was easier to get to know the faculty. Your fellow students were all smart, which helped your education. There was no worry that you would not be able to get the class you needed to graduate as there is at many larger institutions. The list goes on.

The elite Colleges and Universities in the US are the envy of the world. The problem is that many private schools are Fords, but they charge prices for high end European luxury vehicles. People pay high tuitions for these schools, and the value is not there. But if you are talking about the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, and schools of a similar rank, I believe there is a difference. 

Part of what is coming in the shake out in higher education is that those middling private schools are either going to find a business model where their tuition is more affordable, or they will go out of business, because they cannot justify their price tag given the quality of student, faculty, and opportunity they have. The college age population is just not expanding enough.

[minnesotapaintlady]

It doesn't surprise me in the least that medical school acceptance rates are higher at the elite schools.  Every student there is highly driven and academically gifted.  I have no doubt you would have still gotten into medical school being the rock star student at the state school.

[wvugurl26]

For some majors, good enough might be good enough. On the other hand, those with active alumni will open doors for you. My sister in law ran a residency program for a top tier institution. After a decade or more she was tired of the politics, city was increasingly more dangerous, etc.

She took a big fat raise to start up an east coast residency program for another institution. The quality of candidates she gets now are nothing like those when she was at the big name place. They are not even close.

[nidena]

I found this Wiki piece to be interesting and learned a new term: Education Inflation.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2022 16:28:41 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $250,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $5,723,074.14 in 30 years!

Now what would one pay on 250K of debt starting at 22? 

You'd have to be making a crap ton more money to come out ahead at 52.

Now that is an interesting calculation.

To wvagirl's and pulmonary's points, I could see the value of the ivies if your kid is going to set the world on fire- as a researcher, or a hotshot lawyer destined for one of the elite law schools, or someone who wants to go into investment banking. Dr. Peter Attia's podcasts with brilliant and eloquent researchers and practitioners who are doing amazing things tend to share his connection with Stanford.

OTOH- I've worked with and interviewed some Ivy grads who weren't all that impressive. One, a Ph.D. in Physics from Princeton, couldn't keep up a phone conversation and he was a native English speaker. He was just dull. Another flopped as CEO of a medium-sized insurance company and ended up at the tiny consulting firm where I worked for the rest of his career. At one employer we fired a Harvard grad. (He's now a doctor. )

Dad once told me he wished he'd sent us to the Ivies, mostly because of the network. (That assumes the Ivies would take us. ) We did just fine at state schools but I told him I wished I'd been able to study in Paris for a year! I'm grateful we all got out without loans and Mom and Dad, may they rest in peace, had enough left to support themselves in old age, including Dad's 18 months in LTC.

I'd be open to one of my grandchildren going to an Ivy but would really want to weigh cost vs. benefit and what they'd do with such an expensive degree. If it's for an MSW for someone planning to stay at home after having kids, well, no. (I realize this is not my decision but that's the input I'd provide DS and DDIL and they'd likely agree.)

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 6, 2022 16:57:46 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It doesn't surprise me in the least that medical school acceptance rates are higher at the elite schools.  Every student there is highly driven and academically gifted.  I have no doubt you would have still gotten into medical school being the rock star student at the state school.

Possibly, but the acceptance rate where I went was 90%. My state school was only about 50-60%. Increased my odds significantly. Given my salary, I think the roi was quite good.

Your point about the the students is my point on the elite schools. You learn from each other. You push each other. You learn about opportunities you may not have known. There is a value to not being the smartest one in the class. In addition, you weed out some of the people who don’t really want to do the academics

[minnesotapaintlady]

Apr 6, 2022 17:49:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Apr 6, 2022 16:57:46 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It doesn't surprise me in the least that medical school acceptance rates are higher at the elite schools.  Every student there is highly driven and academically gifted.  I have no doubt you would have still gotten into medical school being the rock star student at the state school.

Possibly, but the acceptance rate where I went was 90%. My state school was only about 50-60%. Increased my odds significantly. Given my salary, I think the roi was quite good.

Your point about the the students is my point on the elite schools. You learn from each other. You push each other. You learn about opportunities you may not have known. There is a value to not being the smartest one in the class. In addition, you weed out some of the people who don’t really want to do the academics

50-60% at a school that you are the cream of the crop at. I think your personal odds would have been a lot higher than that.

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 6, 2022 17:47:45 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Apr 6, 2022 16:28:41 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $250,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $5,723,074.14 in 30 years!

[/div]

Now what would one pay on 250K of debt starting at 22? 

You'd have to be making a crap ton more money to come out ahead at 52.

[/quote]

Now that is an interesting calculation.

To wvagirl's and pulmonary's points, I could see the value of the ivies if your kid is going to set the world on fire- as a researcher, or a hotshot lawyer destined for one of the elite law schools, or someone who wants to go into investment banking. Dr. Peter Attia's podcasts with brilliant and eloquent researchers and practitioners who are doing amazing things tend to share his connection with Stanford.

OTOH- I've worked with and interviewed some Ivy grads who weren't all that impressive. One, a Ph.D. in Physics from Princeton, couldn't keep up a phone conversation and he was a native English speaker. He was just dull. Another flopped as CEO of a medium-sized insurance company and ended up at the tiny consulting firm where I worked for the rest of his career. At one employer we fired a Harvard grad. (He's now a doctor. )

Dad once told me he wished he'd sent us to the Ivies, mostly because of the network. (That assumes the Ivies would take us. ) We did just fine at state schools but I told him I wished I'd been able to study in Paris for a year! I'm grateful we all got out without loans and Mom and Dad, may they rest in peace, had enough left to support themselves in old age, including Dad's 18 months in LTC.

I'd be open to one of my grandchildren going to an Ivy but would really want to weigh cost vs. benefit and what they'd do with such an expensive degree. If it's for an MSW for someone planning to stay at home after having kids, well, no. (I realize this is not my decision but that's the input I'd provide DS and DDIL and they'd likely agree.)






[/quote]


The ivies get some duds. Legacies have something to do with that(see GWB). But these discussions always wind up with saying you can do just as well as at a state school, without the accompanying statement about those who do not do so well. Percentage wise I think the ivies come out on top.

So I guess everyone is ok seeing doctors who graduated towards the middle of the pack and did mediocre residencies since these elite schools do not provide a superior education?

[pulmonarymd]

Apr 6, 2022 17:53:57 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 6, 2022 17:49:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Possibly, but the acceptance rate where I went was 90%. My state school was only about 50-60%. Increased my odds significantly. Given my salary, I think the roi was quite good.

Your point about the the students is my point on the elite schools. You learn from each other. You push each other. You learn about opportunities you may not have known. There is a value to not being the smartest one in the class. In addition, you weed out some of the people who don’t really want to do the academics

50-60% at a school that you are the cream of the crop at. I think your personal odds would have been a lot higher than that.

A lot more goes into admissions than you think. The higher ranked schools have better advising and opportunities to help your applications. There are some schools that you wouldn’t think of that have excellent pre-med programs. An example is Hilly Cross in Worcester, MA. They have a superb acceptance rate, and for someone who could get a good financial aide package, would be worth the money

[minnesotapaintlady]

Do people really know the class rank of their doctors? Is there a place to look that up?

I was perusing the physician bios on Mayo Clinics website and the undergrad degrees are from all over. My son's anesthesiologist from has a BS in Agriculture from University of Missouri! 🤣

I'm not anti-Ivy. If you can get in and can afford it that's awesome, but no I don't think they're worth borrowing 250K for. It's really only an issue for the families that make too much to get aid, but aren't wealthy enough to pay cash and not worry about it. Like I said, for my kids an Ivy would be a free ride, but finances are not what's keeping them out. Even for a 4.0 student with perfect test scores and amazing extracurriculars they're a lottery these days. Theres 10s of thousands just like them applying.

[pulmonarymd]

Plenty of people make reference to the joke about the person who finishes last in medical school. I wasn’t talking about class rank per se, but you can look at where they did their residencies. I suspect you would prefer someone who did their residencies at Mayo vs eastern Virginia medical college

[nidena]

A connection on LinkedIn wrote this back in late 2020.  It's quite useful if you're looking to get a VERY inexpensive Bachelor's Degree.  I don't think I've shared it already.

How to Get a Bachelor’s Degree for Less than $5,000

[minnesotapaintlady]

I've literally never looked up where any of my doctors did their residency...until now.  Of the two that treated my son last year, one is University of Wisconsin and one is Dartmouth Hichcock (which means nothing to me). They are both doctors at Mayo and both came highly recommended.  I'm more likely to listen to my PCP and my family and friends for recommendations for specialists than peruse the provider bios and try and rank them by school prestige.  I mean, I might be singing a different tune if I was diagnosed with some rare disorder that most doctors had never even seen, or needed a surgery that only a handful had ever done. Hopefully I never have to find out. 

[pulmonarymd]

Feel the same way about foreign medical grads?

[Deleted]

DD went to an expensive private college. She was the kid that had told me she didn’t really see the point in school, and I literally did not know for sure until the day before her high school graduation, that she would actually graduate. She had a great ACT score, and was also accepted to a state college, but wanted to go to the private college. Given her history, I was not willing to pay for her to go to the private college and tried to get her to go to a local university and I would pay for it. I felt like she needed to show me that she was serious about college before I could even think about that kind of money.

The private college is somewhat of a “party” college, and most of the people I’ve known that went there, did not graduate. Another reason I didn’t want to pay for that. So she got loans to go where she wanted to go. I told her if she graduated, I would help her repay the loans. She dropped out after her first year. So since she went against all my advice, and didn’t even graduate, those loans are hers, I will not help pay for them.

DS “settled” for an arts college that was $20k/year. I tried to talk him out of it because I couldn’t afford to pay that, and imo, “starving artists” is a real thing, and at least $80k just for tuition is a lot for something you may or may not be able to support yourself with. He still feels some type of way because I wasn’t very supportive, even though in my mind, I was just being realistic, and at the end of the day, I still paid a lot of money for him to go, just because he insisted it was his dream.

He was 17yo when he graduated high school and started college. I was shocked to learn that he could sign for student loans at 17yo. I thought you had to be at least 18yo to sign a contract. But he could sign for student loans. Even with a scholarship and the loans, it wasn’t enough money, so I paid the rest of the tuition and of course all the books and supplies myself. And he stopped going before the first semester was over.

So both my children have student loans…… for nothing. The whole student loan thing bugs me because 17 and 18 year olds can still be pretty silly, like my children were at those ages. But they can take on massive amounts of debt for college.

I REALLY feel some type of way that DS was able to go into debt like that before he was even a legal adult. How is that okay?

[jerseygirl]

Grandson was in China teaching at a university and had a soccer accident. Broke his cheek bone. Family looked around to see possibility for surgery. Chinese hospitals were out according to all recommendations. Thought about bringing him back to US with his uncle recommending surgeons but realized without insurance costs would be very high
He went to Thailand , all the surgeons were board qualified from US and hospital was beautiful with private room and good care. He looks great with only a very tiny scar.
br]I’m sure the Thai surgeons spent only a small fraction of US tuition
Again the convergence of the poorly managed higher education and medical systems in the US
Personally I’m pessimistic about ever having reasonably managed higher education snd medical systems here in the US. We can be rightly proud of many universities and hospitals and doctors here but ??

[minnesotapaintlady]

I have no idea what you mean by that.  I already said I never looked up where they graduated from.  But...again back to perusing Mayo's website and there are graduates of foreign medical schools too.  I'm looking at one that graduated from Calcutta Medical College with tons of awards in the US for being one of the best colon and rectal surgeons.  Is Calcutta a bad school? I seriously don't know.  

[Cookies Galore]

Apr 6, 2022 20:11:15 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I have no idea what you mean by that.  I already said I never looked up where they graduated from.  But...again back to perusing Mayo's website and there are graduates of foreign medical schools too.  I'm looking at one that graduated from Calcutta Medical College with tons of awards in the US for being one of the best colon and rectal surgeons.  Is Calcutta a bad school? I seriously don't know.  

In order to practice medicine in the US, foreign medical graduates have to take the US Medical Licensing Exam, get ECFMG certified (evaluating their qualifications), do a residency program, and take the state board exam for wherever they will be practicing. There are many good medical programs around the world and in order to practice medicine in the US there are extra steps to ensure you are qualified.
On the flip side, most Caribbean med schools have a bad rep because they will accept the US med school rejects. St. George's in Granada is decent.

[teen persuasion]

Apr 6, 2022 10:51:43 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 6, 2022 10:45:17 GMT -5 @beckaroo said:

I am hoping all debt for everybody will be forgiven.
What about people with credit card debt that have trouble making minimum payments?
Too much mortgage?
etc., etc., etc.

Well, too much credit card debt you can declare bankruptcy.  Too much mortgage you can either sell or let it go into foreclosure.

What is the option with student loans?

And then there's those fun scholarships/grants that convert to loans retroactively if your situation changes, even if it's beyond your control.  TEACH grants for teachers, and NY's Excelsior scholarships both do this. 


The Excelsior one is especially ridiculous - I wonder if *anyone* actually gets any scholarship $$ out of it, it has so many gotcha clauses: have to use SUNY schools, be NY resident, work in NY immediately after graduating for an equal# of years, must carry at least 18 credits/semester (hard to do if can't get needed classes as is common at SUNY), must graduate in 4 years, etc.  Miss one thing, everything reverts to a loan, period.  It's also only good for tuition, not fees (a large and growing portion as tuition is more controlled), and only for the excess tuition after TAP and PELL are claimed/applied (so, essentially only useful for those not eligible for TAP and PELL, because it would cap out after TAP + PELL). It doesn't give any additional fin aid to the lowest income students. Oh, and despite it being designed to pay tuition, it's capped well below full SUNY tuition.

Private schools in state hate it, because they can't participate, and it creates an unfair playing field that favors SUNY schools because they *look* like a better bargain, but it's all bait and switch.