Ageism in the Self-checkout Lane

[Happy prose]

Feb 22, 2022 20:41:39 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 22, 2022 19:50:54 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I remember when gas stations switched to self-serve. 

They will get the hang of it.  And this directly ties to what I was saying in the Inflation thread.  Companies will turn to solutions like this before they pay the kind of raises that people are talking about for unskilled labor.  And cashiers are unskilled labor.  People having trouble with self-checkout are new to it.  Our WM has had it forever, and people just zip through.  

I actually prefer self-checkout.  I hated standing in line while the cashier chatted up the customers to be "friendly."  

When I worked and lived in New Jersey, my boss, who was originally from the PNW, said the only good thing about living in New Jersey was you didn't have to pump your own gas.  This was around 1991.  Today, one probably has to pump their own gas in New Jersey.

We still don't pump gas. If I happen to drive to PA or NY state, I have to get someone to help me. 

[Deleted]

Feb 23, 2022 20:38:23 GMT -5 Happy prose said:

Feb 22, 2022 20:41:39 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

When I worked and lived in New Jersey, my boss, who was originally from the PNW, said the only good thing about living in New Jersey was you didn't have to pump your own gas.  This was around 1991.  Today, one probably has to pump their own gas in New Jersey.

We still don't pump gas. If I happen to drive to PA or NY state, I have to get someone to help me. 

I remember my Mom going to a particular gas station where she didn’t have to pump her own gas, when I was in my preteens. But by the time I was driving myself, as a teenager, I don’t think full service gas stations existed in the area at all anymore.

I am certain that they don’t now. Idk if it’s because laws changed or the industry just changed in the area. I started driving by myself when I got a license at 16yo and was given a car at the same age….. I’ve always had to pump my own gas. Remembering my Mom not having to get out of the car to get gas seems like a real luxury to me now lol.

[Opti]

Feb 23, 2022 16:30:38 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

I've recently noticed that about 1/3 of the self-checkout machines are signed CASH ONLY or CREDIT ONLY which further backs things up because it's guaranteed that at least 1 person will get in the wrong line and a worker has to come and void out their transaction.  And the Cash Only machine requires a worker to come over if it's a $100 bill.  And don't get me started on the use of EBT cards at self-checkout because there's ALWAYS someone who will buy ineligible items so a worker has to come over 

The one place I love self-checkout is CVS because the lines are always stupid long for regular registers.  I can grab a greeting card, a Diet Coke, shampoo and I am out of there!

Because of the pandemic most places nearby stopped taking cash at self-check outs. Only two grocery locations I know about are taking cash again. It could be more, but it's better than the zero it's been for a year plus.

My biggest problem with most self-check outs is opening those plastic bags. Soon it will not be a problem as NJ is banning single use plastic bags I think starting in May. Trying to start prepping for that. 

[tskeeter]

Feb 22, 2022 20:51:23 GMT -5 Sharon said:

Feb 22, 2022 20:41:39 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

When I worked and lived in New Jersey, my boss, who was originally from the PNW, said the only good thing about living in New Jersey was you didn't have to pump your own gas.  This was around 1991.  Today, one probably has to pump their own gas in New Jersey.

Actually New Jersey and parts of Oregon are the only places where you aren't allowed to pump your own gas.  A few years ago Oregon started allowing self service in the very rural, eastern part of the state.  It was supposed to be evening hours and overnight but I have been to stations during the day where it is pump your own.  There is a bill in the legislature this year to allow self serve gas in the rest of the state which would leave New Jersey as the only state that doesn't allow self serve.

I always thought it is ironic that the State of Oregon thought that Dad, the holder of a doctorate level degree, wasn’t smart enough to safely fill his car with gas.  But that a stoned high school drop out with $10,000 worth of sleeves was.

[chiver78]

Feb 23, 2022 11:21:27 GMT -5 anciana said:

Feb 23, 2022 10:25:13 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Same here, I find the line and interacting with a human more annoying.  The only time I ever go through the line is if I have a crap ton of groceries and don't want to bag them by myself with the small area you have at the self checkout. If I have one of my kids along one of us bags and one scans and we're out of there in not time.

My favorite is scan and go at Sam's Club where you just scan the items as you throw them in the cart and then just leave after swiping to pay.  So quick and easy.  You can see how your bill is playing out as you go and sale items show up immediately when scanned.  I would love it if our regular grocery store went to that, but I'm guessing there would be a lot more stealing with that when you're not buying bulk and there are tons of items in a cart.

Me three! All the little chitchat stresses me out when I'm trying to watch the register and the person bagging the groceries and remember to use my coupon or the shopping app. I have gotten pretty good at scanning and I like to bag stuff a certain way (I don't like it when they bag too few items per bag and I end up with gazillion of them), and I'm even pretty quick with produce. But I can use the self checkout only when I don't have a full cart as there is not enough space in the bagging area.

all of this. the one store where I do my big shopping doesn't have self checkout. but, my friend's mom is a bagger there. so I'll wait in whatever line she is working, so that I know I won't get three things in a bag. just because I hand over 6 bags, doesn't mean you need to use them all.

anywhere else? if given the option to self check, I use it.

[NoNamePerson]

Feb 24, 2022 1:20:17 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Feb 22, 2022 20:51:23 GMT -5 Sharon said:

Actually New Jersey and parts of Oregon are the only places where you aren't allowed to pump your own gas.  A few years ago Oregon started allowing self service in the very rural, eastern part of the state.  It was supposed to be evening hours and overnight but I have been to stations during the day where it is pump your own.  There is a bill in the legislature this year to allow self serve gas in the rest of the state which would leave New Jersey as the only state that doesn't allow self serve.

I always thought it is ironic that the State of Oregon thought that Dad, the holder of a doctorate level degree, wasn’t smart enough to safely fill his car with gas.  But that a stoned high school drop out with $10,000 worth of sleeves was.

 and I find it funny that people have trouble figuring it out since everywhere I go and pump my own the instructions are clearly on a screen at the pump. Unless you can't read I don't get the confusion.

But my pet peeve with pump your own now is that they have blaring commercials while you pump. But just the other day I had to get my $20.00 worth for the month and I saw a small red sticker up high on the pump and upon closer look someone had written "mute" on it and places it on one of the squares and bingo NO blaring crap while I pumped. I admit that a few times I have punched some of the buttons trying to mute crap but gave up and didn't hit the correct one!!  Now I know which one to punch  

[NoNamePerson]

Sitting here thinking how things have changed. I remember when the self serve at grocery stores came out everyone seemed to be up in arms about people losing their jobs. So called low end jobs are the expendable ones apparently. Kids who would be cashiering part time on weekends/after school now have to look for part time jobs as engineers, etc  

[wvugurl26]

I wish those stupid gas station things could be muted. I clearly don't know what button to push. I have about jumped out of my skin several times. Dead silence and then hearing a voice all the sudden.

The closest Walmart to me often does not accept cash at self check out since covid. It's only been maybe this year that I've noticed them accepting cash.

I wish our Target would remodel and add self check out. Dozens of registers and maybe 2 open plus returns if you are lucky. I do drive up and go but sometimes I'm in a hurry or I want to pick. They gave me a broken toy and I didn't realize it until after I gave it as a gift. Recipient's mom was very understanding but I was embarrassed. It was obviously tampered with upon a closer look and I'm sure in comparison to others on the shelf you could see what was missing.

[Opti]

My closest Target does have self-checkout and I rarely use cashiers there. I also rarely buy enough for it to be tough to use self-checkout.

[NoNamePerson]

Feb 24, 2022 8:00:27 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

I wish those stupid gas station things could be muted. I clearly don't know what button to push. I have about jumped out of my skin several times. Dead silence and then hearing a voice all the sudden.

The closest Walmart to me often does not accept cash at self check out since covid. It's only been maybe this year that I've noticed them accepting cash.

I wish our Target would remodel and add self check out. Dozens of registers and maybe 2 open plus returns if you are lucky. I do drive up and go but sometimes I'm in a hurry or I want to pick. They gave me a broken toy and I didn't realize it until after I gave it as a gift. Recipient's mom was very understanding but I was embarrassed. It was obviously tampered with upon a closer look and I'm sure in comparison to others on the shelf you could see what was missing.

On the pump I used the sticker was on the second/third button down on the right (should have paid closer attention). I will be checking this out the next time I go to a different station just to see.

Our Target has a few self checkouts but this is a Super Target and they remodeled years ago. Our regular Target doesn't have self checkout but I do notice signs of some remodeling that store too but it's not a big store and an anchor store in a mall so will be interesting if they add self checkout there as well. 

[Opti]

Feb 24, 2022 7:39:29 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Sitting here thinking how things have changed. I remember when the self serve at grocery stores came out everyone seemed to be up in arms about people losing their jobs. So called low end jobs are the expendable ones apparently. Kids who would be cashiering part time on weekends/after school now have to look for part time jobs as engineers, etc  

If they are lucky they will be paid interns. If not, they might choose to be unpaid interns with the hope it will help for future employment. My last two large cattle call info sessions had at least one person ask about intern opportunities. Will be interesting to see how today's DOL and company video call goes.

[Deleted]

Feb 23, 2022 21:52:03 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

But by the time I was driving myself, as a teenager, I don’t think full service gas stations existed in the area at all anymore.

I am certain that they don’t now. Idk if it’s because laws changed or the industry just changed in the area.

My guess is that they make more from people working the counter at the attached mini-marts than they would if they deployed one to pump gas at a bay that charged a few cents extra. Many of us wouldn't want to wait till someone was done with a customer at the counter to come out and pump gas and I suspect most of us would choose "full serve" only if it were freezing or raining! Not very pleasant for the employees.

Back to grocery stories and restaurants: my mother was an intelligent woman- I know she was. She just did not get computers. Her brain didn't work that way and of course she wasn't brought up with them. Dad was very computer-friendly till he was in his late 80s and his mind began to fail. So, it's not just age. There's a segment of the population who can't adjust, maybe doesn't even have the smarts to operate self-serve.

[NoNamePerson]

Feb 24, 2022 8:27:26 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Feb 23, 2022 21:52:03 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

But by the time I was driving myself, as a teenager, I don’t think full service gas stations existed in the area at all anymore.

I am certain that they don’t now. Idk if it’s because laws changed or the industry just changed in the area.

My guess is that they make more from people working the counter at the attached mini-marts than they would if they deployed one to pump gas at a bay that charged a few cents extra. Many of us wouldn't want to wait till someone was done with a customer at the counter to come out and pump gas and I suspect most of us would choose "full serve" only if it were freezing or raining! Not very pleasant for the employees.

Back to grocery stories and restaurants: my mother was an intelligent woman- I know she was. She just did not get computers. Her brain didn't work that way and of course she wasn't brought up with them. Dad was very computer-friendly till he was in his late 80s and his mind began to fail. So, it's not just age. There's a segment of the population who can't adjust, maybe doesn't even have the smarts to operate self-serve.

I'm old enough to remember when there was someone behind the counter and someone to come out to pump gas. But I personally like the self  pump. But and a big but, I don't have to pump gas during snow storm/freezing cold or even if it is raining now that I'm retired.  Wipers clean my windshield, if tire low on air I just pull into place that changes my oil and they fill it. Car wash takes care of keeping it clean!! Life is good     Doesn't take much to keep me happy

[stillmovingforward]

Feb 24, 2022 8:10:33 GMT -5 Opti said:

Feb 24, 2022 7:39:29 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Sitting here thinking how things have changed. I remember when the self serve at grocery stores came out everyone seemed to be up in arms about people losing their jobs. So called low end jobs are the expendable ones apparently. Kids who would be cashiering part time on weekends/after school now have to look for part time jobs as engineers, etc  

If they are lucky they will be paid interns. If not, they might choose to be unpaid interns with the hope it will help for future employment. My last two large cattle call info sessions had at least one person ask about intern opportunities. Will be interesting to see how today's DOL and company video call goes.

Engineering interns are always paid. And well,for an intern.

[daisylu]

Count me in as one who uses the self checkouts as often as I can. I hate waiting in lines with people trying to talk to me. I have had an exhausting day not hurting stupid people and I do not want to have to entertain you. 

I also like my stuff bagged a certain way, and it really bothers me when you put a bottle of Advil in its own bag instead of just adding it in with my pasta. 


Plus, there is a huge shortage of workers here. I know a grocery store paying offering $18 to cashiers, and still not getting applicants.

[anciana]

Feb 24, 2022 8:09:00 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Feb 24, 2022 8:00:27 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

I wish those stupid gas station things could be muted. I clearly don't know what button to push. I have about jumped out of my skin several times. Dead silence and then hearing a voice all the sudden.

The closest Walmart to me often does not accept cash at self check out since covid. It's only been maybe this year that I've noticed them accepting cash.

I wish our Target would remodel and add self check out. Dozens of registers and maybe 2 open plus returns if you are lucky. I do drive up and go but sometimes I'm in a hurry or I want to pick. They gave me a broken toy and I didn't realize it until after I gave it as a gift. Recipient's mom was very understanding but I was embarrassed. It was obviously tampered with upon a closer look and I'm sure in comparison to others on the shelf you could see what was missing.

On the pump I used the sticker was on the second/third button down on the right (should have paid closer attention). I will be checking this out the next time I go to a different station just to see.

Our Target has a few self checkouts but this is a Super Target and they remodeled years ago. Our regular Target doesn't have self checkout but I do notice signs of some remodeling that store too but it's not a big store and an anchor store in a mall so will be interesting if they add self checkout there as well. 

No way, there possibly is a "mute" button?!? NoNamePerson, you just made my day! I need to fill up in the next few days so I will look. Is it on the screen or somewhere on the side?

The screen still makes me go through some chit chat (do you want a car wash, are you using a credit card, click here and here and here) that I almost wish there was an actual person there instead of the screen so I could just cut through all of that and say to fill up such and such gas, and that's that.

[Lizard Queen]

I hate those blaring screens--theyre so loud! I hated working at a gas station back in the 90's, too. The musak was awful, on an endless 40 minute loop, and special size tapes that couldn't be swapped for something better. It was torturous. And then you had the awful manager. The customers for the most part were ok.

[teen persuasion]

Just the other day, I realized the library where I work has morphed into catering mainly to the tech-challenged. The patrons we see in person want physical books. Those using the electronic services don't need to set foot in the building. A good portion of the people I help need copies, faxes sent, scans emailed, and shipping labels printed. Getting a pdf "off my phone" as they think of it, and printed, so they can sign it, and fax it back to the sender is always a fun challenge - they have no idea how to forward an email to me so I can print it for them, and can't login to their email on our network (to print directly) because they have no idea of their password.

It's comical how some older individuals do things so manually. Sally had a book checked out, and loaned it to her neighbor to also read. When she dropped in to return another book, she asked me to renew it because Sharon had it. Not an hour later, Sharon stopped in to ask me to renew the book, too. When I mentioned Sally had already done it, she was a bit miffed Sally hadn't told her, saving her a trip out. Next time, just call me! You don't need to talk to me face to face, I can renew over the phone. Of course, I'd love to teach you how to renew it yourself online, so you can do it 24/7, but that's a bridge too far for some.

Everyone else that I can sign up for email notification, though, is cutting my workload. I don't have to call those people for holds or nag about overdues.

And then there's that lady who wants me to search real estate listings for houses in some other state - for her. I'll give you a computer pass, get you started using the computer, show you how to use a mouse and how to type (really), but you need to do the search yourself. Or, you know, find a real estate agent to work with. When I suggested that last bit, she said the agent told her to use her phone (she has a flip phone). Umm, time for a new agent, one who wants a sale.

[Opti]

I prefer bagging my own stuff as well most of the time. $18/hr.? VHCOL? Locally it is HCOL but not say NYC or Seattle. The largest grocery chain starts at $14/hr. with a shift differential. 

[Opti]

Feb 24, 2022 13:03:31 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Just the other day, I realized the library where I work has morphed into catering mainly to the tech-challenged. The patrons we see in person want physical books. Those using the electronic services don't need to set foot in the building. A good portion of the people I help need copies, faxes sent, scans emailed, and shipping labels printed. Getting a pdf "off my phone" as they think of it, and printed, so they can sign it, and fax it back to the sender is always a fun challenge - they have no idea how to forward an email to me so I can print it for them, and can't login to their email on our network (to print directly) because they have no idea of their password.

It's comical how some older individuals do things so manually. Sally had a book checked out, and loaned it to her neighbor to also read. When she dropped in to return another book, she asked me to renew it because Sharon had it. Not an hour later, Sharon stopped in to ask me to renew the book, too. When I mentioned Sally had already done it, she was a bit miffed Sally hadn't told her, saving her a trip out. Next time, just call me! You don't need to talk to me face to face, I can renew over the phone. Of course, I'd love to teach you how to renew it yourself online, so you can do it 24/7, but that's a bridge too far for some.

Everyone else that I can sign up for email notification, though, is cutting my workload. I don't have to call those people for holds or nag about overdues.

And then there's that lady who wants me to search real estate listings for houses in some other state - for her. I'll give you a computer pass, get you started using the computer, show you how to use a mouse and how to type (really), but you need to do the search yourself. Or, you know, find a real estate agent to work with. When I suggested that last bit, she said the agent told her to use her phone (she has a flip phone). Umm, time for a new agent, one who wants a sale.

Libraries very much are full service, and I am a little surprised about the agent, but my guess is that particular agent did not think the person was that serious about moving. (Doesn't make it true, but some salespeeps only exert themselves for what they think are close to sure sales.)

I find your Sally/Sharon story funny even though I have no idea how often that occurs in my library or parts of the library system. I call all the time actually especially when weather comes up and I decide it is not worth a potential accident to come in. They will renew it online for me, tell me if they can give me a grace day or two to bring it in, or whatever.

The library does have a self-check-out although I haven't seen anyone use it since the pandemic started. I very rarely try to use it. Pre-pandemic all the holds were behind the library circulation desk, so I needed their assistance anyway.
Also, some people want you to do it, no matter what their age is.

[tskeeter]

Feb 24, 2022 13:03:31 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Just the other day, I realized the library where I work has morphed into catering mainly to the tech-challenged. The patrons we see in person want physical books. Those using the electronic services don't need to set foot in the building. A good portion of the people I help need copies, faxes sent, scans emailed, and shipping labels printed. Getting a pdf "off my phone" as they think of it, and printed, so they can sign it, and fax it back to the sender is always a fun challenge - they have no idea how to forward an email to me so I can print it for them, and can't login to their email on our network (to print directly) because they have no idea of their password.

It's comical how some older individuals do things so manually. Sally had a book checked out, and loaned it to her neighbor to also read. When she dropped in to return another book, she asked me to renew it because Sharon had it. Not an hour later, Sharon stopped in to ask me to renew the book, too. When I mentioned Sally had already done it, she was a bit miffed Sally hadn't told her, saving her a trip out. Next time, just call me! You don't need to talk to me face to face, I can renew over the phone. Of course, I'd love to teach you how to renew it yourself online, so you can do it 24/7, but that's a bridge too far for some.

Everyone else that I can sign up for email notification, though, is cutting my workload. I don't have to call those people for holds or nag about overdues.

And then there's that lady who wants me to search real estate listings for houses in some other state - for her. I'll give you a computer pass, get you started using the computer, show you how to use a mouse and how to type (really), but you need to do the search yourself. Or, you know, find a real estate agent to work with. When I suggested that last bit, she said the agent told her to use her phone (she has a flip phone). Umm, time for a new agent, one who wants a sale.

One of the things I’ve learned about people of all ages trying to use technology is that a high frequency of use is necessary.  If you use something every day or two, you learn a bit more about how the software works every time you use the software.  If you only use a piece of software once every three or four months, you struggle.  Why?  First, you don’t use the software often enough to benefit from cumulative learning.  Every time you use the software, you’re in first time learning mode.  That is complicated by the fact that you haven’t used to software frequently enough to firmly embed how to use the software in your memory.  You forget how to use the software between uses.  Finally, infrequent use of software often means that now the software doesn’t work the same way that it did the last time you used it.  A new release of the software has been installed.  Fields have been moved around on the screens you need to use, new steps are now required, something you used to do is no longer required.  It becomes a bit like trying to drive a different type of vehicle each time you leave the house.  Imagine driving your car, then a motorcycle, followed by a semi, and then a farm tractor.  You can probably find the operator’s seat, and maybe even get the vehicle started.  But can you really drive it?  How about if you have an operator’s manual?  Could you get the farm tractor backed out of the driveway and be going down the street within 30 seconds of climbing onto a tractor for the first time?  Now imagine that the controls are labeled with symbols that you don’t understand (such as the three little horizontal bars that indicate you can access a menu by clicking on the symbol).  You’re trying to operate equipment that you’re not familiar with and the instructions are in a language you don’t know how to read.

Renewing a book online may be simple for a librarian who uses the library software every day.  But if you’re a patron who uses the library software three times a year, and who renews a book once every four years, and has never received any training on how to use the library software (I’m betting that the librarian got several hours of training to use the library software), I suspect that doing an online book renewal will be a challenge.

[NoNamePerson]

Feb 24, 2022 11:56:49 GMT -5 anciana said:

Feb 24, 2022 8:09:00 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

On the pump I used the sticker was on the second/third button down on the right (should have paid closer attention). I will be checking this out the next time I go to a different station just to see.

Our Target has a few self checkouts but this is a Super Target and they remodeled years ago. Our regular Target doesn't have self checkout but I do notice signs of some remodeling that store too but it's not a big store and an anchor store in a mall so will be interesting if they add self checkout there as well. 

No way, there possibly is a "mute" button?!? NoNamePerson , you just made my day! I need to fill up in the next few days so I will look. Is it on the screen or somewhere on the side?

The screen still makes me go through some chit chat (do you want a car wash, are you using a credit card, click here and here and here) that I almost wish there was an actual person there instead of the screen so I could just cut through all of that and say to fill up such and such gas, and that's that.

On the pumps there are a row of “square buttons” on either side of the talking screen! This sticker was on a button on right side. Don’t remember for sure but maybe two down. I just know the yelling screen was quite! I plan to test this out next time I get gas!  So if anyone reading this gives it a try and it works report back. Please   It will be a month before I add my next $20.00 then again I just may go pump $5.oo just to satisfy my own curiosity!  

[Lizard Queen]

Feb 24, 2022 14:27:09 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Feb 24, 2022 13:03:31 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Just the other day, I realized the library where I work has morphed into catering mainly to the tech-challenged. The patrons we see in person want physical books. Those using the electronic services don't need to set foot in the building. A good portion of the people I help need copies, faxes sent, scans emailed, and shipping labels printed. Getting a pdf "off my phone" as they think of it, and printed, so they can sign it, and fax it back to the sender is always a fun challenge - they have no idea how to forward an email to me so I can print it for them, and can't login to their email on our network (to print directly) because they have no idea of their password.

It's comical how some older individuals do things so manually. Sally had a book checked out, and loaned it to her neighbor to also read. When she dropped in to return another book, she asked me to renew it because Sharon had it. Not an hour later, Sharon stopped in to ask me to renew the book, too. When I mentioned Sally had already done it, she was a bit miffed Sally hadn't told her, saving her a trip out. Next time, just call me! You don't need to talk to me face to face, I can renew over the phone. Of course, I'd love to teach you how to renew it yourself online, so you can do it 24/7, but that's a bridge too far for some.

Everyone else that I can sign up for email notification, though, is cutting my workload. I don't have to call those people for holds or nag about overdues.

And then there's that lady who wants me to search real estate listings for houses in some other state - for her. I'll give you a computer pass, get you started using the computer, show you how to use a mouse and how to type (really), but you need to do the search yourself. Or, you know, find a real estate agent to work with. When I suggested that last bit, she said the agent told her to use her phone (she has a flip phone). Umm, time for a new agent, one who wants a sale.

One of the things I’ve learned about people of all ages trying to use technology is that a high frequency of use is necessary.  If you use something every day or two, you learn a bit more about how the software works every time you use the software.  If you only use a piece of software once every three or four months, you struggle.  Why?  First, you don’t use the software often enough to benefit from cumulative learning.  Every time you use the software, you’re in first time learning mode.  That is complicated by the fact that you haven’t used to software frequently enough to firmly embed how to use the software in your memory.  You forget how to use the software between uses.  Finally, infrequent use of software often means that now the software doesn’t work the same way that it did the last time you used it.  A new release of the software has been installed.  Fields have been moved around on the screens you need to use, new steps are now required, something you used to do is no longer required.  It becomes a bit like trying to drive a different type of vehicle each time you leave the house.  Imagine driving your car, then a motorcycle, followed by a semi, and then a farm tractor.  You can probably find the operator’s seat, and maybe even get the vehicle started.  But can you really drive it?  How about if you have an operator’s manual?  Could you get the farm tractor backed out of the driveway and be going down the street within 30 seconds of climbing onto a tractor for the first time?  Now imagine that the controls are labeled with symbols that you don’t understand (such as the three little horizontal bars that indicate you can access a menu by clicking on the symbol).  You’re trying to operate equipment that you’re not familiar with and the instructions are in a language you don’t know how to read.

Renewing a book online may be simple for a librarian who uses the library software every day.  But if you’re a patron who uses the library software three times a year, and who renews a book once every four years, and has never received any training on how to use the library software (I’m betting that the librarian got several hours of training to use the library software), I suspect that doing an online book renewal will be a challenge.

Plus, all the damn logins and passwords. Who remembers them all when they're rarely used?

[teen persuasion]

Feb 24, 2022 14:27:09 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Feb 24, 2022 13:03:31 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Just the other day, I realized the library where I work has morphed into catering mainly to the tech-challenged. The patrons we see in person want physical books. Those using the electronic services don't need to set foot in the building. A good portion of the people I help need copies, faxes sent, scans emailed, and shipping labels printed. Getting a pdf "off my phone" as they think of it, and printed, so they can sign it, and fax it back to the sender is always a fun challenge - they have no idea how to forward an email to me so I can print it for them, and can't login to their email on our network (to print directly) because they have no idea of their password.

It's comical how some older individuals do things so manually. Sally had a book checked out, and loaned it to her neighbor to also read. When she dropped in to return another book, she asked me to renew it because Sharon had it. Not an hour later, Sharon stopped in to ask me to renew the book, too. When I mentioned Sally had already done it, she was a bit miffed Sally hadn't told her, saving her a trip out. Next time, just call me! You don't need to talk to me face to face, I can renew over the phone. Of course, I'd love to teach you how to renew it yourself online, so you can do it 24/7, but that's a bridge too far for some.

Everyone else that I can sign up for email notification, though, is cutting my workload. I don't have to call those people for holds or nag about overdues.

And then there's that lady who wants me to search real estate listings for houses in some other state - for her. I'll give you a computer pass, get you started using the computer, show you how to use a mouse and how to type (really), but you need to do the search yourself. Or, you know, find a real estate agent to work with. When I suggested that last bit, she said the agent told her to use her phone (she has a flip phone). Umm, time for a new agent, one who wants a sale.

One of the things I’ve learned about people of all ages trying to use technology is that a high frequency of use is necessary.  If you use something every day or two, you learn a bit more about how the software works every time you use the software.  If you only use a piece of software once every three or four months, you struggle.  Why?  First, you don’t use the software often enough to benefit from cumulative learning.  Every time you use the software, you’re in first time learning mode.  That is complicated by the fact that you haven’t used to software frequently enough to firmly embed how to use the software in your memory.  You forget how to use the software between uses.  Finally, infrequent use of software often means that now the software doesn’t work the same way that it did the last time you used it.  A new release of the software has been installed.  Fields have been moved around on the screens you need to use, new steps are now required, something you used to do is no longer required.  It becomes a bit like trying to drive a different type of vehicle each time you leave the house.  Imagine driving your car, then a motorcycle, followed by a semi, and then a farm tractor.  You can probably find the operator’s seat, and maybe even get the vehicle started.  But can you really drive it?  How about if you have an operator’s manual?  Could you get the farm tractor backed out of the driveway and be going down the street within 30 seconds of climbing onto a tractor for the first time?  Now imagine that the controls are labeled with symbols that you don’t understand (such as the three little horizontal bars that indicate you can access a menu by clicking on the symbol).  You’re trying to operate equipment that you’re not familiar with and the instructions are in a language you don’t know how to read.

Renewing a book online may be simple for a librarian who uses the library software every day.  But if you’re a patron who uses the library software three times a year, and who renews a book once every four years, and has never received any training on how to use the library software (I’m betting that the librarian got several hours of training to use the library software), I suspect that doing an online book renewal will be a challenge.

Yes, all very true.  We help a lot of patrons who aren't very computer savvy to navigate things online, especially with state websites for unemployment, rental assistance, FAFSA, etc.  One guy is in often for help submitting invoices (he's a musician) to places he performs.  Every place had a different format.  Then one switched to a portal service just as the pandemic ramped up.  No performances for over a year. Once he began again, we had a challenge figuring out how to submit invoices again. Where was the link? Was he registered? Yes. How to navigate the portal. Where's the link to the agency the invoice goes to? Is there a template for invoices, or does he create it in Word and upload? How does he get paid?

Round and round we went, me and other staff trying to interpret the directions in the slide presentation from 2019, while most of it went over his head. When we couldn't reproduce the steps, we wondered how much the portal had morphed in a few years. Turns out, his missing link was because it had expired from inactivity. I later stumbled into the parts we couldn't locate (in notifications). Then he needed bank account #s. He was ready to give up gigs with this chain, due to the tech difficulties. I think it'll be easier once he gets it all set up, but


But about renewals in our system SW - the OPAC is completely different from the SW I use behind the desk. Whenever I suggest online renewal, I pull up the OPAC in a browser and walk them thru it. It's not hard once you get logged in - My Account, tick the item, press Renew. Done.

[Opti]

Our library system has actually gotten easier on the renewal front. Because of the pandemic and the library being closed for months, the system auto-renewed your items. It still does so, although it will fail if someone else has requested that item or you've hit your limit of 10 renewals. They also went to a no fines system. In practice, its roughly a three-week grace period. After that they assume you lost the item or aren't going to return it, so they send you billing notices. They started that earlier than I as a frequent patron knew. I had one item I returned late, which the system marked as missing even though it was sitting in one of their bins waiting to age out from Covid exposure.

I held onto that notice for too long, even though I could see the system acknowledged the return. I am a frequent user of my home library but infrequent user of others. The ones in my county that are part of a municipal complex confuse me. My homes were in a more established county, so there isn't property available generally to build a whole new complex and toss the library in along with town offices, etc.  

[Lizard Queen]

Feb 25, 2022 1:50:36 GMT -5 Opti said:

Our library system has actually gotten easier on the renewal front. Because of the pandemic and the library being closed for months, the system auto-renewed your items. It still does so, although it will fail if someone else has requested that item or you've hit your limit of 10 renewals. They also went to a no fines system. In practice, its roughly a three-week grace period. After that they assume you lost the item or aren't going to return it, so they send you billing notices. They started that earlier than I as a frequent patron knew. I had one item I returned late, which the system marked as missing even though it was sitting in one of their bins waiting to age out from Covid exposure.

I held onto that notice for too long, even though I could see the system acknowledged the return. I am a frequent user of my home library but infrequent user of others. The ones in my county that are part of a municipal complex confuse me. My homes were in a more established county, so there isn't property available generally to build a whole new complex and toss the library in along with town offices, etc.  

Our library has similar policies,  but only 2 renewals.  But if I had to figure out my login to do it instead,  I'd just call the library to do it. I'd only go in to do it in person if I had something else I needed to do there.

[jerseygirl]

For the last 5 years I only borrow library books online only had to go to library once when my card had to be renewed. Nice to actually go in with all the stacks of books, displays and ‘library ladies’!
My mom was a librarian and libraries were always one of my favorite places. My cousin became a librarian at a pharmaceutical company. She combined my career in pharma with my love of libraries!

[NoNamePerson]

Feb 25, 2022 9:19:54 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Feb 25, 2022 1:50:36 GMT -5 Opti said:

Our library system has actually gotten easier on the renewal front. Because of the pandemic and the library being closed for months, the system auto-renewed your items. It still does so, although it will fail if someone else has requested that item or you've hit your limit of 10 renewals. They also went to a no fines system. In practice, its roughly a three-week grace period. After that they assume you lost the item or aren't going to return it, so they send you billing notices. They started that earlier than I as a frequent patron knew. I had one item I returned late, which the system marked as missing even though it was sitting in one of their bins waiting to age out from Covid exposure.

I held onto that notice for too long, even though I could see the system acknowledged the return. I am a frequent user of my home library but infrequent user of others. The ones in my county that are part of a municipal complex confuse me. My homes were in a more established county, so there isn't property available generally to build a whole new complex and toss the library in along with town offices, etc.  

Our library has similar policies,  but only 2 renewals.  But if I had to figure out my login to do it instead,  I'd just call the library to do it. I'd only go in to do it in person if I had something else I needed to do there.

My log in is my account number and pin. It's saved so I don't have to actually enter it any more. But if things go wonky I have it written down on a book mark that they gave me a hundred years ago when they issued pin numbers for accessing the Ancestry. Com data from home to do research, sending print jobs to library, dl movies and stuff like that. 

I know there was a 72 hour period for a while that they didn't show books returned. I kept checking online to see if two books I had put in outside return box had been returned. Finally they showed returned. But from what I can tell now books show returned immediately.

I go in to pick up books I put on hold online but when I return them I go to outside drive up box!! 
 

[Opti]

Our books were held in 5 different bins for a time. And I think they did not count weekends. So, if you dropped it off on a Friday, it might not be scanned into the system until the coming Thursday or even Friday, a week later. They disabled the drop boxes and had these huge bins they would leave near the entrance with one or two library personnel keeping watch.

[Lizard Queen]

Feb 25, 2022 9:39:44 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Feb 25, 2022 9:19:54 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Our library has similar policies,  but only 2 renewals.  But if I had to figure out my login to do it instead,  I'd just call the library to do it. I'd only go in to do it in person if I had something else I needed to do there.

My log in is my account number and pin. It's saved so I don't have to actually enter it any more. But if things go wonky I have it written down on a book mark that they gave me a hundred years ago when they issued pin numbers for accessing the Ancestry. Com data from home to do research, sending print jobs to library, dl movies and stuff like that. 

I know there was a 72 hour period for a while that they didn't show books returned. I kept checking online to see if two books I had put in outside return box had been returned. Finally they showed returned. But from what I can tell now books show returned immediately.

I go in to pick up books I put on hold online but when I return them I go to outside drive up box!! 
 

I save them, but they get unsaved periodically. Always at the worst time, too.