So you believe the democrats are all about the downtrodden

[Value Buy]

and poor.
Then they do this.


www.cnbc.com/2021/11/01/tax-strategy-of-the-rich-backdoor-roth-survives-in-latest-democrat-plan.html

This is how they reward the rich who back their election campaigns.
I had hopes it would be stopped as they had written this in the build back better plan to end the plan.

[Tiny]

Are we all sure this isn't a concession to the wealthy Republicans - in order to get them to agree to some of the other stuff in the plan?

[teen persuasion]

Does ending the Backdoor Roth and Mega Backdoor Roth hurt the poor? Or are the taxes generated by those part of the budgeting process for the bills?

If you've got a big tIRA balance from a rollover of a previous employer 401k, you can't do a BDR until you eliminate the tIRA basis. If you convert that to Roth, you pay ordinary income tax rates on it.

If you instead skip the BDR or MBR then where do you put those $ you wanted to save? Taxable is the only place left. But LTCG tax rates are lower than the ordinary tax rates you'd pay for eventual withdrawals from tIRA accounts (can you say tax break for the wealthy?)

Also, taxable accounts have no RMDs (another unfair advantage the article was trying to pin on Roth accounts), and get a step up in basis at death. So the wealthy still have a tax break - who is more likely to never touch a taxable account so it gets passed on with the step up in basis, the poor or the wealthy?

Honestly, if this really was about making things more fair (and not about the budgeting apparatus) the law would be broadening availability of tax advantaged accounts to everyone, instead of making certain kinds illegal. Mandate that every employer has to offer a 401k with all the bells and whistles found in 401ks at megacorps: rule of 55, $ matching (not % matching), after tax contributions allowed, Roth conversion and in service distributions allowed, low cost index funds, etc.

[tallguy]

Okay, so if we stipulate that Democratic priorities and legislation are only 50% slanted to help the poor and downtrodden, how does that compare with Republicans?  Well, since maybe .05% (on a good day) of Republican priorities go toward helping those people, then Democrats are still 1000 times better than Republicans.  Yeah, I can live with that.   

[countrygirl2]

I agree, dems are far from perfect and they have to cater to repubs to get anything for the "people" out here. Biden had a lot of good ideas and if that trillion dollar cut for the rich were rescinded it would have worked pretty good. The poor are getting more numerous and pushed down more. They need to be careful, rebellion comes from unjust wealth distribution, when they finally get pushed down to far.

[bean29]

Nov 1, 2021 15:12:41 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

and poor.
Then they do this.


www.cnbc.com/2021/11/01/tax-strategy-of-the-rich-backdoor-roth-survives-in-latest-democrat-plan.html

This is how they reward the rich who back their election campaigns.
I had hopes it would be stopped as they had written this in the build back better plan to end the plan.

My question to you is Did you take advantage of the ability to do a "Backdoor" Roth, and do you have regular Roth investments in your Portfolio?  I pretty much agree with the others, There are just too many poor people and the imbalance of wealth concentrated at the top is very concerning.  Even in the 9-9 group they have been discussing there is a vast disparity in wealth in the group.

It is all well and good to say people should lift themselves out of poverty with work, but what if they really are not able to work, or work as efficiently as employers demand?  Do we just let them live as homeless people until they die?  I think we should be building low income housing for the poor-maybe something on the order of a rooming house but with private baths?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I don't know if democrats are for the poor exactly but the Republican party has made it crystal clear they are for NOBODY but themselves and Trump.  So I'm going to keep voting democrat at least they give the illusion they actually care about their constitutents. 

[bean29]

I really want "Middle America" to matter.  There are people that lean to the center in Both the D and R parties.  They say the current voting system gives people on the extreme ends of the parties too much power.  If we have ranked choice voting, they say the extremes will lose more power, because the people that have extremist views will no longer have the power to get someone in office or keep them out of office.  Candidates would have to appeal to everyone and not dismiss anyone's views to get elected.  I guess even if only some states have RCV, it will help because those candidates will not be beholden to a particular party to get re-elected.

I am a Democrat but I am a "Blue Dog" D, I sometimes agree with the R view, or at least don't necessarily agree with what the Progressive Democrats want.

[happyhoix]

I heard someone say the other day that the difference between a dem and a GOPer is the difference between the guy at the party who looks at how much pizza is available, thinks there’s not enough and just takes 1 slice so there’s more to go around and the guy who takes three slices so he’ll be sure to get enough.

That does kind of summarize it nicely.

[tbop77]

I really have my doubts that many "downtrodden" people even have a Roth, upper middle class people, yes.  Not sure how you correlate DEMS rewarding the rich, Republicans played that card already.  Do you worry about this?

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-these-ultrawealthy-politicians-avoided-paying-taxes/ar-AAQj8bN?ocid=msedgntp


Both parties writing tax laws for us that benefit them.  

[Value Buy]

Nov 3, 2021 9:19:07 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Nov 1, 2021 15:12:41 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

and poor.
Then they do this.


www.cnbc.com/2021/11/01/tax-strategy-of-the-rich-backdoor-roth-survives-in-latest-democrat-plan.html

This is how they reward the rich who back their election campaigns.
I had hopes it would be stopped as they had written this in the build back better plan to end the plan.

My question to you is Did you take advantage of the ability to do a "Backdoor" Roth, and do you have regular Roth investments in your Portfolio?  I pretty much agree with the others, There are just too many poor people and the imbalance of wealth concentrated at the top is very concerning.  Even in the 9-9 group they have been discussing there is a vast disparity in wealth in the group.

It is all well and good to say people should lift themselves out of poverty with work, but what if they really are not able to work, or work as efficiently as employers demand?  Do we just let them live as homeless people until they die?  I think we should be building low income housing for the poor-maybe something on the order of a rooming house but with private baths?

No, I did not. I was not that young when they first allowed it, and did not pay enough attention to it at the time. I have no Roths, which is my mistake. Fact is, we made enough to support ourselves with our paychecks but not enough to pay taxes on income and put it in a roth. Had to use the IRA route as most Americans had to due to economics. A few years later, we looked at the backdoor roth, but did not want to pay the intial income tax on the amount to transfer to the back door roth. Please remember this was not advertised as a benefit to the billionaires. They saw the loophole. Even I agree billionaires should not game the tax system.

Argueing about the poor and their suffering is a red herring on this issue. If you want to pay for low cost housing, how about closing the back door roth for multimillionaires and bilionaires and apply that money paid to the IRS todo it? Better yet, apply it to prescription drug costs! Even I agree if you have a few billion you do not need to pile on that number for living in retirement. Grow the money through the traditional routes and pay something to the IRS.

[Value Buy]

FYI, does everyone know they are still looking at reducing or discontinueing the SALT penalty that Trump and the Republicans put in forcing huge numbers of the 9.9 group from deducting on their federal income taxes thus increasing IRS revenue?
States most affected by the SALT deduction have failed to allow this to be deducted on their state income tax worksheets to help this group. If they were that concerned and complained about it when Trump passed it why have they not put it in their tax system?

Because it would create less income for the state. They liked it when the feds subsidized it for their high earners, but have failed to bail them out at the same time......

[teen persuasion]

Nov 4, 2021 6:52:25 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Nov 3, 2021 9:19:07 GMT -5 bean29 said:

My question to you is Did you take advantage of the ability to do a "Backdoor" Roth, and do you have regular Roth investments in your Portfolio?  I pretty much agree with the others, There are just too many poor people and the imbalance of wealth concentrated at the top is very concerning.  Even in the 9-9 group they have been discussing there is a vast disparity in wealth in the group.

It is all well and good to say people should lift themselves out of poverty with work, but what if they really are not able to work, or work as efficiently as employers demand?  Do we just let them live as homeless people until they die?  I think we should be building low income housing for the poor-maybe something on the order of a rooming house but with private baths?

No, I did not. I was not that young when they first allowed it, and did not pay enough attention to it at the time. I have no Roths, which is my mistake. Fact is, we made enough to support ourselves with our paychecks but not enough to pay taxes on income and put it in a roth. Had to use the IRA route as most Americans had to due to economics. A few years later, we looked at the backdoor roth, but did not want to pay the intial income tax on the amount to transfer to the back door roth. Please remember this was not advertised as a benefit to the billionaires. They saw the loophole. Even I agree billionaires should not game the tax system.

Argueing about the poor and their suffering is a red herring on this issue. If you want to pay for low cost housing, how about closing the back door roth for multimillionaires and bilionaires and apply that money paid to the IRS todo it? Better yet, apply it to prescription drug costs! Even I agree if you have a few billion you do not need to pile on that number for living in retirement. Grow the money through the traditional routes and pay something to the IRS.

What money paid to the IRS?

The money going into a backdoor or mega backdoor Roth is already taxed.  If they eliminate them, the wealthy will just put it in taxable.

There is NO upfront tax break for any Roth contributions, never has been.

But to use the backdoor Roth, a wealthy person MIGHT need to first convert a chunk from a tIRA to Roth to clear the decks.  That WOULD generate additional taxes.

So eliminating the backdoor Roth could eliminate a reason wealthy people might convert early and pay taxes early.

[teen persuasion]

Nov 4, 2021 6:59:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

FYI, does everyone know they are still looking at reducing or discontinueing the SALT penalty that Trump and the Republicans put in forcing huge numbers of the 9.9 group from deducting on their federal income taxes thus increasing IRS revenue?
States most affected by the SALT deduction have failed to allow this to be deducted on their state income tax worksheets to help this group. If they were that concerned and complained about it when Trump passed it why have they not put it in their tax system?

Because it would create less income for the state. They liked it when the feds subsidized it for their high earners, but have failed to bail them out at the same time......

I don't understand.  How can the states allow the taxpayers to deduct "this" on their state income tax worksheets?  The whole point is that taxpayers can deduct only the first $10k of State And Local Taxes (SALT) from their federal returns.

[Value Buy]

Nov 4, 2021 11:50:44 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Nov 4, 2021 6:52:25 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

No, I did not. I was not that young when they first allowed it, and did not pay enough attention to it at the time. I have no Roths, which is my mistake. Fact is, we made enough to support ourselves with our paychecks but not enough to pay taxes on income and put it in a roth. Had to use the IRA route as most Americans had to due to economics. A few years later, we looked at the backdoor roth, but did not want to pay the intial income tax on the amount to transfer to the back door roth. Please remember this was not advertised as a benefit to the billionaires. They saw the loophole. Even I agree billionaires should not game the tax system.

Argueing about the poor and their suffering is a red herring on this issue. If you want to pay for low cost housing, how about closing the back door roth for multimillionaires and bilionaires and apply that money paid to the IRS todo it? Better yet, apply it to prescription drug costs! Even I agree if you have a few billion you do not need to pile on that number for living in retirement. Grow the money through the traditional routes and pay something to the IRS.

What money paid to the IRS?

The money going into a backdoor or mega backdoor Roth is already taxed.  If they eliminate them, the wealthy will just put it in taxable.

There is NO upfront tax break for any Roth contributions, never has been.

But to use the backdoor Roth, a wealthy person MIGHT need to first convert a chunk from a tIRA to Roth to clear the decks.  That WOULD generate additional taxes.

So eliminating the backdoor Roth could eliminate a reason wealthy people might convert early and pay taxes early.

Okay I stand corrected. I am referencing our IRA accounts. If you take money out of an IRA for the Roth, you must pay the income tax on the amount we pull out.
At our age when we considered this we felt the tax would nullify the amount we could grow in the Roth before starting to take money out of the account after retiring

[Value Buy]

Nov 4, 2021 12:34:43 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Nov 4, 2021 6:59:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

FYI, does everyone know they are still looking at reducing or discontinueing the SALT penalty that Trump and the Republicans put in forcing huge numbers of the 9.9 group from deducting on their federal income taxes thus increasing IRS revenue?
States most affected by the SALT deduction have failed to allow this to be deducted on their state income tax worksheets to help this group. If they were that concerned and complained about it when Trump passed it why have they not put it in their tax system?

Because it would create less income for the state. They liked it when the feds subsidized it for their high earners, but have failed to bail them out at the same time......

I don't understand.  How can the states allow the taxpayers to deduct "this" on their state income tax worksheets?  The whole point is that taxpayers can deduct only the first $10k of State And Local Taxes (SALT) from their federal returns.

The state can allow any deduction they want to residents of that state.

[Value Buy]

Okay, now I am agreeing with Bernie Sanders, so I have officially lost it.


www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/bernie-sanders-is-pushing-to-limit-a-tax-break-in-bidens-dollar175-trillion-spending-bill-that-would-mostly-benefit-the-rich/ar-AAQjFkR?li=BBnb7Kz

[Value Buy]

Nov 4, 2021 12:34:43 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Nov 4, 2021 6:59:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

FYI, does everyone know they are still looking at reducing or discontinueing the SALT penalty that Trump and the Republicans put in forcing huge numbers of the 9.9 group from deducting on their federal income taxes thus increasing IRS revenue?
States most affected by the SALT deduction have failed to allow this to be deducted on their state income tax worksheets to help this group. If they were that concerned and complained about it when Trump passed it why have they not put it in their tax system?

Because it would create less income for the state. They liked it when the feds subsidized it for their high earners, but have failed to bail them out at the same time......

I don't understand.  How can the states allow the taxpayers to deduct "this" on their state income tax worksheets?  The whole point is that taxpayers can deduct only the first $10k of State And Local Taxes (SALT) from their federal returns.

The dems want to go back to the old system without a dollar limit.
Millionaire and Billionaire welfare refuge from paying their fair share.

[bean29]

Well if they eliminate the SALT Limitations we will benefit.  Our property taxes alone are nearly $8,000/year.  Our Mortgage interest is not so bad though, so reinstating the SALT deduction will help us, but it is not going to result in a huge tax savings.


 

[pulmonarymd]

It is not definite that re-instating the SALT deductions help the "rich". Despite living in what is considered being a high tax state, we benefitted greatly from the tax cuts, due to no longer having to pay the AMT. So depending on how the changes are made to the SALT deduction and the tax code, I may be paying more. But that doesn't fit the OP narrative.

[Tennesseer]

I find it interesting the article is about personal finance but the thread author tried to turn it into a political issue about the downtrodden and Democrats.

From the top of the linked page:

PERSONAL FINANCE

Backdoor Roth, a tax strategy favored by the rich, survives in Democrats’ latest plan

PUBLISHED MON, NOV 1 20211:40 PM EDT>

[tallguy]

Nov 4, 2021 18:03:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I find it interesting the article is about personal finance but the thread author tried to turn it into a political issue about the downtrodden and Democrats.

From the top of the linked page:

PERSONAL FINANCE

Backdoor Roth, a tax strategy favored by the rich, survives in Democrats’ latest plan

PUBLISHED MON, NOV 1 20211:40 PM EDT>

And failed, but what else is new?  

[dondub]

Well, I don’t believe the Demos are all about the downtrodden. But the Repo-Cons are only about the top 10% so don’t know why value buy doesn’t sign up for the better party and not the party of oligarchic democracy destruction.

[Value Buy]

Nov 4, 2021 19:07:25 GMT -5 dondub said:

Well, I don’t believe the Demos are all about the downtrodden. But the Repo-Cons are only about the top 10% so don’t know why value buy doesn’t sign up for the better party and not the party of oligarchic democracy destruction.

I like dj fall in the category of not fitting into the Republican party definition.
Never have.
I am financially conservative, and much more than the party is.
I am socially conservative but by today's definition of the Republican party I am liberal.
Unlike dj, I believe voting as an Independent and chasing a garenteed losing candidate is not worth it to me, therefore I do vote primarily for Republican candidates, although I have voted for Democratic Congressional and Senate candidates in the state of Indiana at times. Some local democratic candidates but primarily of the Republican party, as when you get down to local politics you do know how good or how bad the candidates are since they are also in the local news, etc.

[djAdvocate]

at some point in the last 20 years, I decided that the only real change happens through third parties. therefore, my vote is wasted voting for parties that are in charge.

similar logic, different conclusions.

[Value Buy]

Nov 6, 2021 23:29:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

at some point in the last 20 years, I decided that the only real change happens through third parties. therefore, my vote is wasted voting for parties that are in charge.

similar logic, different conclusions.

I understand what you are saying, just do not agree.