The Cult of Trump

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2021 21:32:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Dec 21, 2021 20:36:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

viewed another way, the Civil War never ended, because the South never TRULY accepted defeat.

we were held together by a fragile alliance that respected human beings, at least in writing.

that is falling apart now. and I have to say that

I AM PART OF THE PROBLEM

because until a year ago, I still respected conservatives. conservatives USED TO graciously accept defeat. now they are the party of spoiled children. 

I am a grown man. I won't stand for that level of immaturity. the indignity of boasting PROUDLY that you only go to web pages of people that agree with you.  I never thought I would see that here. I always thought we were the self questioning people.

I was wrong. secretly, only 60% of us are like that- and we are not brave enough to give the 40% a good talking to.

Part of the problem is the good conservatives stayed quiet or hid in their bunkers. Few like Mitt Romney seemed to hold onto real principles. 

What I discovered during the pandemic and even more so because of one certain co-worker, is people who think like Trump are actually not people you can reason with. They can be extremely driven by their fears and anxiety. Sometimes you can manage them, but I personally have learned how hard it is ... even when they know its in their best interest. I have yet to learn the levers to stop the panic 
and get them into at least a neutral emotional state. Some seek out people who agree with them because that's how they manage their anxiety in RL. I found it amazing and scary how many people one person needed to talk to when under the latest angst. It was a village practically and sometimes more than one round. (Exhausting!) But after getting their emotional angst spread over legions of people, they find peace quicker than those of us who play it closer to the vest. 

that is a lousy way to manage cognitive dissonance tho, right?

I mean, let's just say your opinion is WRONG.  seeking out conformational opinion won't fix that.  it will only bury the infection deeper in your mind.

if they really want to chill, they should find the truth.  like, America is not the greatest nation on Earth.  it is AMONG the greatest nations on Earth.  and we can do better.  but we don't get better by thinking we are the best, and we have nothing to learn.  that kind of thing.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2021 21:32:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Dec 21, 2021 20:36:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

viewed another way, the Civil War never ended, because the South never TRULY accepted defeat.

we were held together by a fragile alliance that respected human beings, at least in writing.

that is falling apart now. and I have to say that

I AM PART OF THE PROBLEM

because until a year ago, I still respected conservatives. conservatives USED TO graciously accept defeat. now they are the party of spoiled children. 

I am a grown man. I won't stand for that level of immaturity. the indignity of boasting PROUDLY that you only go to web pages of people that agree with you.  I never thought I would see that here. I always thought we were the self questioning people.

I was wrong. secretly, only 60% of us are like that- and we are not brave enough to give the 40% a good talking to.

Think of all the time we have spent on the board talking to SCP. How much good has it done? A good talking to is not what's needed. I am not sure what is, but I am working on it. And yes people who are emotional thinkers tend to operate on very basic emotions you'd think only toddlers to High schoolers cling to. 

it depends on what you believe the proximate goal of that "conversation" is.

Paul was not really interested in discussion.  he was openly propagandizing, like a Russian bot (which, for all I know, he is).  so, the way to deal with such a "person" is simply to point out that their information is wrong, provide the CORRECT information, and allow readers to read it.  hopefully, they will take time to do it, and it will change their mind.

but the problem(s) with this way of thinking is(are) that:

1) it is passive

2) it assumes that the people that READ the propagandist are interested in facts

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 21:49:34 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:32:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Part of the problem is the good conservatives stayed quiet or hid in their bunkers. Few like Mitt Romney seemed to hold onto real principles. 

What I discovered during the pandemic and even more so because of one certain co-worker, is people who think like Trump are actually not people you can reason with. They can be extremely driven by their fears and anxiety. Sometimes you can manage them, but I personally have learned how hard it is ... even when they know its in their best interest. I have yet to learn the levers to stop the panic 
and get them into at least a neutral emotional state. Some seek out people who agree with them because that's how they manage their anxiety in RL. I found it amazing and scary how many people one person needed to talk to when under the latest angst. It was a village practically and sometimes more than one round. (Exhausting!) But after getting their emotional angst spread over legions of people, they find peace quicker than those of us who play it closer to the vest. 

that is a lousy way to manage cognitive dissonance tho, right?

I mean, let's just say your opinion is WRONG.  seeking out conformational opinion won't fix that.  it will only bury the infection deeper in your mind.

if they really want to chill, they should find the truth.  like, America is not the greatest nation on Earth.  it is AMONG the greatest nations on Earth.  and we can do better.  but we don't get better by thinking we are the best, and we have nothing to learn.  that kind of thing.

Oh its positively awful. 

What I've found is on average they don't know how to chill. They don't like hard truths. In fact, one of my RL examples does embody the binary approach to RL. Whatever it is is either the greatest thing ever or the worst thing ever. And there is no noticeable cognitive dissonance even if in the very the same day they later declare something else is the greatest thing ever and its in the same category as the other thing.

Its logic defying. 

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 21:52:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:32:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Think of all the time we have spent on the board talking to SCP. How much good has it done? A good talking to is not what's needed. I am not sure what is, but I am working on it. And yes people who are emotional thinkers tend to operate on very basic emotions you'd think only toddlers to High schoolers cling to. 

it depends on what you believe the proximate goal of that "conversation" is.

Paul was not really interested in discussion.  he was openly propagandizing, like a Russian bot (which, for all I know, he is).  so, the way to deal with such a "person" is simply to point out that their information is wrong, provide the CORRECT information, and allow readers to read it.  hopefully, they will take time to do it, and it will change their mind.

but the problem(s) with this way of thinking is(are) that:

1) it is passive

2) it assumes that the people that READ the propagandist are interested in facts

I've learned #2 is rarely true. What they are interested in is what does it mean to them? How does this affect me! 

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 21:42:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2021 20:56:12 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think its important to not put too much emphasis on post analysis of what pundits think the reasons are.

this study was not conducted by pundits.  it was conducted by PRRI:

www.prri.org/about/

I would never have posted an analysis I think is partisan. 

the ENTIRE reason I posted this is because it makes sense.

I can explain why, if you like.

Perhaps I did not explain myself well. Anyone who does the analysis is trying to reverse engineer the results. They have almost a zero chance of being correct.

What happened is a bunch of people social engineered voters until they got the results they wanted. Some of the levers are now obvious like the pro birth movement and the QAnon story related to it to flip people to Trump. They discovered that protecting children was a huge hot button issue for a big portion of people. That's why the lie of Trump saving children from those evil other political party peeps played so well.

I almost wish I had made a reading list of the books I read, because a couple of them were very important to understanding where we are now and how we got there. 

[Tennesseer]

Careful, djAdvocate -you might end up at the bottom of each of Value Buy 's posts as his second stalker.  

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 23:25:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Careful, djAdvocate -you might end up at the bottom of each of Value Buy 's posts as his second stalker.  

Looking for company Tenn? 

[Tennesseer]

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

I would expect your god trump to make such a mistake but not you!

[tallguy]

Dec 21, 2021 23:46:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

I would expect your god trump to make such a mistake but not you!

Death cult indeed!  

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 23:46:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

I would expect your god trump to make such a mistake but not you!

What the FFing heck. Most of the compromise has been on the Dems side for years. Man who looks like a toad digesting a big meal of flies, has made it his life's work to obstruct and not compromise.

Do not tell me what I would or wouldn't do as an elected official. You have no clue. Being a faux Christian and being pro birth are not conservative ideas. Fiscal responsibility should still be a conservative idea. The difference on the various sides is more how they would budget.

[Opti]

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

Meanwhile, or Covidwhile after a MAGA rally...




(Died in the wool Trumper after a MAGA rally or failed Invermectin treatment)

[tbop77]

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

You mean like a conservative idea of storming the Capitol building to disrupt the election?  I really want to know your opinion on that one.

What conservative ideas are you talking about anyway?  I haven't heard any for the last 15 years except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.  Please do tell.  They are not even going to put a platform out for the midterms, you know that right?

Talk about opening your mind and compromise....have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?  Do you remember Mitch McConnell crossing his arms across his chest when Obama was elected and sprouting the only thing he was going to work on was making him a one term president.  So, since then, what have they compromised on?  
Your way or the highway?
Sound familiar?

[Opti]

I think there were perhaps three conservative ideas acted on

1) Pro birth by justice picks and a gimee to the faux Christian crowd who believes forcing a woman to give birth makes them a good person

2) Immigration i.e. the Wall
In practice mixed. The number of foreigner work VISAs like used at Trump properties actually increased
I know of nothing actually aimed at employers using and abusing illegal immigrants. Action was against individuals

3) Making government smaller
This was done in a haphazard way. Kind of like when corporate raiders take over a company to sell it for parts. We are still dealing with the fallout in the Post Office. Trump wanted to outsource infrastructure and make it more costly to the America people while rewarding people like him with free govt goodies to raid & keep in their own private run business. The National Weather Service and its forecasts are another example of this. Both actions took away services from rural customers and made them more expensive if they wanted something similar.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 22, 2021 7:32:25 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

You mean like a conservative idea of storming the Capitol building to disrupt the election?  I really want to know your opinion on that one.

What conservative ideas are you talking about anyway?  I haven't heard any for the last 15 years except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.  Please do tell.  They are not even going to put a platform out for the midterms, you know that right?

Talk about opening your mind and compromise....have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?  Do you remember Mitch McConnell crossing his arms across his chest when Obama was elected and sprouting the only thing he was going to work on was making him a one term president.  So, since then, what have they compromised on?  
Your way or the highway?
Sound familiar?

Notice no reply and VB was online after you posted the above.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2021 9:20:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think there were perhaps three conservative ideas acted on

1) Pro birth by justice picks and a gimee to the faux Christian crowd who believes forcing a woman to give birth makes them a good person

2) Immigration i.e. the Wall
In practice mixed. The number of foreigner work VISAs like used at Trump properties actually increased
I know of nothing actually aimed at employers using and abusing illegal immigrants. Action was against individuals

3) Making government smaller
This was done in a haphazard way. Kind of like when corporate raiders take over a company to sell it for parts. We are still dealing with the fallout in the Post Office. Trump wanted to outsource infrastructure and make it more costly to the America people while rewarding people like him with free govt goodies to raid & keep in their own private run business. The National Weather Service and its forecasts are another example of this. Both actions took away services from rural customers and made them more expensive if they wanted something similar.

#1 is a strange one.  I don't think most "secular" people are pro-life, regardless of political stripe.  so, really this is a "religious -vs- not religious" issue.

#2 I think most Republicans are blatant hypocrites on this one.  rather than making it impossible for businesses to HIRE "illegals", the GOP blithely ignores enforcement and fining for them.  thus, since the INCENTIVE continues to exist, the PROBLEM continues to exist.

#3 this is another naked hypocrisy.  when it comes to building prisons, armies, and police forces, the GOP are ALL IN for socialism, and increasing the size of "the state".  when it comes to the WELFARE state, they are against it.  for brown people.

I think that the problem here is that a lot of these "stances" are code words.  they don't really mean what most people would think that they LITERALLY mean.  and because of that, if you are OPPOSED to these "stances", that doesn't mean what people think it means, either.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2021 23:25:02 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Careful, djAdvocate -you might end up at the bottom of each of Value Buy 's posts as his second stalker.  

fine by me.  I won't be replying to him any more, however.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2021 22:49:11 GMT -5 Opti said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:42:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

this study was not conducted by pundits.  it was conducted by PRRI:

www.prri.org/about/

I would never have posted an analysis I think is partisan. 

the ENTIRE reason I posted this is because it makes sense.

I can explain why, if you like.

Perhaps I did not explain myself well. Anyone who does the analysis is trying to reverse engineer the results. They have almost a zero chance of being correct.

I fervently disagree. I think PRRI was basically asking THIS question:

"if the Trump Republicans were voting because of economic stress, then WHY did their opinion of the economy go from "most pessimistic" to "most optimistic" as SOON AS TRUMP WON?"

this is particularly intriguing in that, as I have pointed out before, the economy did BETTER under Obama than Trump (prior to the pandemic, of course.  after the pandemic, Trump had the worst economic performance of any president in history).

the ANSWER is that it actually doesn't have to do with ECONOMICS.  they voted for Trump because of the FEAR OF LOSING SOCIAL STATUS.

they did NOT set out to PROVE that thesis.  that is why it took six months to make this analysis.  they had to re-survey again and again to get at this question.

I think that it is REALLY IMPORTANT for Democrats to understand this with ABSOLUTE CLARITY.  because harping on about the economy is not going to rescue them, as the trolling thread shows.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2021 23:46:34 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

I would expect your god trump to make such a mistake but not you!

40% of the US population won't even get vaccinated to SAVE THEMSELVES.

they are not socialist Democrats.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2021 7:32:25 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Dec 21, 2021 21:40:30 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Why do died in the wool socialist democrats on this forum think Republicans are the problem and will never change their way of thinking?
Many of you will never OPEN your mind to a conservative idea or if elected to a political position would ever cross the political divide ito compromise on an issue.
Your way or the highway.
Sound familiar?

You mean like a conservative idea of storming the Capitol building to disrupt the election?  I really want to know your opinion on that one.

What conservative ideas are you talking about anyway?  I haven't heard any for the last 15 years except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.  Please do tell.  They are not even going to put a platform out for the midterms, you know that right?

Talk about opening your mind and compromise....have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?  Do you remember Mitch McConnell crossing his arms across his chest when Obama was elected and sprouting the only thing he was going to work on was making him a one term president.  So, since then, what have they compromised on?  
Your way or the highway?
Sound familiar?

there is a core idea in Republicanism: independence.

they never talk about it, except among themselves.  they see anyone who works for the government OR receives benefits from the government as "dependent".  and that would work for me as an argument if they were not pro-military, pro-police, and pro-social-security.  those are the most socialist parts of our economy, and they literally have nothing but glowing praise for them.

so, yeah.  they are fine with big government.  for them.

[hurley1980]

Dec 22, 2021 15:09:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2021 22:49:11 GMT -5 Opti said:

Perhaps I did not explain myself well. Anyone who does the analysis is trying to reverse engineer the results. They have almost a zero chance of being correct.

I fervently disagree. I think PRRI was basically asking THIS question:

"if the Trump Republicans were voting because of economic stress, then WHY did their opinion of the economy go from "most pessimistic" to "most optimistic" as SOON AS TRUMP WON?"

this is particularly intriguing in that, as I have pointed out before, the economy did BETTER under Obama than Trump (prior to the pandemic, of course.  after the pandemic, Trump had the worst economic performance of any president in history).

the ANSWER is that it actually doesn't have to do with ECONOMICS.  they voted for Trump because of the FEAR OF LOSING SOCIAL STATUS.

they did NOT set out to PROVE that thesis.  that is why it took six months to make this analysis.  they had to re-survey again and again to get at this question.

I think that it is REALLY IMPORTANT for Democrats to understand this with ABSOLUTE CLARITY.  because harping on about the economy is not going to rescue them, as the trolling thread shows.

 This is really what it comes down to.  They feel like the are losing their rights because others are gaining rights, like rights are finite and there are only so many to go around. This scares the crap out of them.  The violence they created on Jan 6 was out of fear more than anger.  They aren't angry, then are scared!

[djAdvocate]

Dec 22, 2021 15:25:34 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Dec 22, 2021 15:09:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

I fervently disagree. I think PRRI was basically asking THIS question:

"if the Trump Republicans were voting because of economic stress, then WHY did their opinion of the economy go from "most pessimistic" to "most optimistic" as SOON AS TRUMP WON?"

this is particularly intriguing in that, as I have pointed out before, the economy did BETTER under Obama than Trump (prior to the pandemic, of course.  after the pandemic, Trump had the worst economic performance of any president in history).

the ANSWER is that it actually doesn't have to do with ECONOMICS.  they voted for Trump because of the FEAR OF LOSING SOCIAL STATUS.

they did NOT set out to PROVE that thesis.  that is why it took six months to make this analysis.  they had to re-survey again and again to get at this question.

I think that it is REALLY IMPORTANT for Democrats to understand this with ABSOLUTE CLARITY.  because harping on about the economy is not going to rescue them, as the trolling thread shows.

 This is really what it comes down to.  They feel like the are losing their rights because others are gaining rights, like rights are finite and there are only so many to go around. This scares the crap out of them.  The violence they created on Jan 6 was out of fear more than anger.  They aren't angry, then are scared!

you know what is funny?  conservatives don't feel that ECONOMICS is a zero sum game.  they can see how ALL OF US can become more wealthy, at the expense of nobody.

but when it comes to civil rights, that is how they see it.  or more aptly, that is what they FEEL, because there is no evidence whatsoever that white (men) folks are losing their rights to non-whites or non-males.

I have spent the last four years thinking about this survey and it's implications.  I would suggest that most of you do the same, if you plan on staying here.  I would also suggest you consider the person that precipitated it: OBAMA.

before Obama, white men could satisfy themselves that they had nothing to worry about.  that they were ALWAYS going to be the bosses, and that "others" would be servile.  but there is one thing that Obama is absolutely not, and it is servile.  and that scared the shit out of them, even if they were NOT willing to admit it.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 22, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2021 15:25:34 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

 This is really what it comes down to.  They feel like the are losing their rights because others are gaining rights, like rights are finite and there are only so many to go around. This scares the crap out of them.  The violence they created on Jan 6 was out of fear more than anger.  They aren't angry, then are scared!

you know what is funny?  conservatives don't feel that ECONOMICS is a zero sum game.  they can see how ALL OF US can become more wealthy, at the expense of nobody.

but when it comes to civil rights, that is how they see it.  or more aptly, that is what they FEEL, because there is no evidence whatsoever that white (men) folks are losing their rights to non-whites or non-males.

I have spent the last four years thinking about this survey and it's implications.  I would suggest that most of you do the same, if you plan on staying here.  I would also suggest you consider the person that precipitated it: OBAMA.

before Obama, white men could satisfy themselves that they had nothing to worry about.  that they were ALWAYS going to be the bosses, and that "others" would be servile.  but there is one thing that Obama is absolutely not, and it is servile.  and that scared the shit out of them, even if they were NOT willing to admit it.

I always found it funny as to the argument about not allowing gay people to marry other gay people of the same gender. The argument was "Why should gay people have more rights than heterosexual people?"

What exactly extra rights did gay people receive with being allowed to legally marry?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dec 22, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2021 15:25:34 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

 This is really what it comes down to.  They feel like the are losing their rights because others are gaining rights, like rights are finite and there are only so many to go around. This scares the crap out of them.  The violence they created on Jan 6 was out of fear more than anger.  They aren't angry, then are scared!

you know what is funny?  conservatives don't feel that ECONOMICS is a zero sum game.  they can see how ALL OF US can become more wealthy, at the expense of nobody.

but when it comes to civil rights, that is how they see it.  or more aptly, that is what they FEEL, because there is no evidence whatsoever that white (men) folks are losing their rights to non-whites or non-males.

I have spent the last four years thinking about this survey and it's implications.  I would suggest that most of you do the same, if you plan on staying here.  I would also suggest you consider the person that precipitated it: OBAMA.

before Obama, white men could satisfy themselves that they had nothing to worry about.  that they were ALWAYS going to be the bosses, and that "others" would be servile.  but there is one thing that Obama is absolutely not, and it is servile.  and that scared the shit out of them, even if they were NOT willing to admit it.

Anyone who didn't see Trump's election as a direct backlash against a black man being president twice and then a woman coming incredibly close in 2016 is part of the problem.  And it keeps going with the fear mongering that Biden is going to hand over the country to a *gasp*  South Asian African American woman.

THAT is a huge part of the motivation to keep him a one term president.   That and possibly Mayor Pete.  Both him and Kamala have already ran and being in the positions they currently are is grooming grounds for running again.  Don't tell me Republicans aren't encouraging Trump to run again for that reason.  He's the biggest emblem of rich white male privilege ever.

[Opti]

Dec 22, 2021 15:09:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 21, 2021 22:49:11 GMT -5 Opti said:

Perhaps I did not explain myself well. Anyone who does the analysis is trying to reverse engineer the results. They have almost a zero chance of being correct.

I fervently disagree. I think PRRI was basically asking THIS question:

"if the Trump Republicans were voting because of economic stress, then WHY did their opinion of the economy go from "most pessimistic" to "most optimistic" as SOON AS TRUMP WON?"

this is particularly intriguing in that, as I have pointed out before, the economy did BETTER under Obama than Trump (prior to the pandemic, of course.  after the pandemic, Trump had the worst economic performance of any president in history).

the ANSWER is that it actually doesn't have to do with ECONOMICS.  they voted for Trump because of the FEAR OF LOSING SOCIAL STATUS.

they did NOT set out to PROVE that thesis.  that is why it took six months to make this analysis.  they had to re-survey again and again to get at this question.

I think that it is REALLY IMPORTANT for Democrats to understand this with ABSOLUTE CLARITY.  because harping on about the economy is not going to rescue them, as the trolling thread shows.

Simple, because Trump won. Not because he ran, but because he won and they believed a rich business person would make the economy better. Much like that stat of W's approval right after 911. Its irrational feels. 

Real important, I don't think most people who voted for Trump did vote because of economic stress. The coalitions he put under his big identity tent to win were Evangelicals and White rights groups. The former got on message with the pro birth pro conservative stance. This was fed further by money grubbing "preachers" who sold the idea, heck fake prophecies on how Trump was the chosen one. For President, by God. Blasphemy of the highest order ... but it was one of many tells that these aren't really religious people. At best, they are people who use the cover of Christianity to cover for many social order beliefs.

The White rights group came in easily enough once Trump's wall took over many minds. That was IMO his first big win. It was liked for so many reasons. Sure some were economic, but most of that was peeps worried about the costs of social programs more than their own livlihood. The knee jerk reaction of no more others though, I think was a far bigger sell mentally for many Trumpers. Its obvious just listening to them talk about immigrants. They assume they are all brown, Spanish speaking, and going to be a financial drain on the safety net. 

[Opti]

Dec 22, 2021 15:15:50 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2021 7:32:25 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

You mean like a conservative idea of storming the Capitol building to disrupt the election?  I really want to know your opinion on that one.

What conservative ideas are you talking about anyway?  I haven't heard any for the last 15 years except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.  Please do tell.  They are not even going to put a platform out for the midterms, you know that right?

Talk about opening your mind and compromise....have you been in a coma for the last 15 years?  Do you remember Mitch McConnell crossing his arms across his chest when Obama was elected and sprouting the only thing he was going to work on was making him a one term president.  So, since then, what have they compromised on?  
Your way or the highway?
Sound familiar?

there is a core idea in Republicanism: independence.

they never talk about it, except among themselves.  they see anyone who works for the government OR receives benefits from the government as "dependent".  and that would work for me as an argument if they were not pro-military, pro-police, and pro-social-security.  those are the most socialist parts of our economy, and they literally have nothing but glowing praise for them.

so, yeah.  they are fine with big government.  for them.

There was a core idea of independence and rugged individualism. The election of Trump proved what a huge lie that was for a bigger swath of Republicans than I ever would have guessed prior to 2015 until now.

They are pro government. They just don't realize it. And much like balancing the budget and fiscal responsibility exists on most of the political spectrum, the issue is what they support and want to keep. There is no size of government too large to soothe their fears when it comes to personal safety. This is also behind the huge buying and stockpiling of guns. There is apparently also no size of government too large when it comes to interfering with reproductive rights of women, because so many them are pinning their hopes of being worthy and a good person on "saving babies".

Yet when push comes to shove most are lazy. They don't promote social programs to expand saving vulnerable children from being abused and killed by their parents or other "caretakers". Apparently that's OK, because they aren't aware of it or ... ? So they want to save children from pedophiles, but they won't do a whole lot personally to help. I think they are against children being beaten to death, shaken into oblivion, locked in cages, used as income by being foster parents etc. ... but I'm not seeing much action on that front. Liberals have a far better track record of actually doing stuff to make it better. The Catholic church has an old record of using unwed Moms as labor and free babies for parishioners. But I digress as thinking about this makes me cold angry.

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Dec 22, 2021 17:03:42 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dec 22, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

you know what is funny?  conservatives don't feel that ECONOMICS is a zero sum game.  they can see how ALL OF US can become more wealthy, at the expense of nobody.

but when it comes to civil rights, that is how they see it.  or more aptly, that is what they FEEL, because there is no evidence whatsoever that white (men) folks are losing their rights to non-whites or non-males.

I have spent the last four years thinking about this survey and it's implications.  I would suggest that most of you do the same, if you plan on staying here.  I would also suggest you consider the person that precipitated it: OBAMA.

before Obama, white men could satisfy themselves that they had nothing to worry about.  that they were ALWAYS going to be the bosses, and that "others" would be servile.  but there is one thing that Obama is absolutely not, and it is servile.  and that scared the shit out of them, even if they were NOT willing to admit it.

Anyone who didn't see Trump's election as a direct backlash against a black man being president twice and then a woman coming incredibly close in 2016 is part of the problem.  And it keeps going with the fear mongering that Biden is going to hand over the country to a *gasp*  South Asian African American woman.

THAT is a huge part of the motivation to keep him a one term president.   That and possibly Mayor Pete.  Both him and Kamala have already ran and being in the positions they currently are is grooming grounds for running again.  Don't tell me Republicans aren't encouraging Trump to run again for that reason.  He's the biggest emblem of rich white male privilege ever.

I like Fluffy the comic. He has great insights on race and culture. One of the things he said, is that all bi-racial people who are part black, get upgraded to black once they make it big. I look at it a little different. Too many peeps need those boxes. The binary choices. Plus fear of black people for some is so strong, they decide they don't want to forget. You aren't bi-racial! You are black dammit. 

Kamala is a threat because she's black, not because she's part Asian. (And a woman of course.)
Mayor Pete is white and male. He has only one strike against him, he's gay. Depending on how you count, Kamala has a minimum of two, and likely four plus if you count her husband and how she came to be married to him. (yet rich white male Trump gets waved through for far far more social sins.)

[Tennesseer]

The evangelicals voted for trump because he said he would overturn Roe vs. Wade.  They threw away any ethics and morality they might have possessed with their vote for trump knowing or should have known all his amoral, financial and other legal problems.

trump stacked SCOTUS and it looks like Roe might be overturned.  But what can be overturned can be reinstated at a later date by a different group of SCOTUS members. 

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Dec 22, 2021 15:02:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2021 9:20:43 GMT -5 Opti said:

I think there were perhaps three conservative ideas acted on

1) Pro birth by justice picks and a gimee to the faux Christian crowd who believes forcing a woman to give birth makes them a good person

2) Immigration i.e. the Wall
In practice mixed. The number of foreigner work VISAs like used at Trump properties actually increased
I know of nothing actually aimed at employers using and abusing illegal immigrants. Action was against individuals

3) Making government smaller
This was done in a haphazard way. Kind of like when corporate raiders take over a company to sell it for parts. We are still dealing with the fallout in the Post Office. Trump wanted to outsource infrastructure and make it more costly to the America people while rewarding people like him with free govt goodies to raid & keep in their own private run business. The National Weather Service and its forecasts are another example of this. Both actions took away services from rural customers and made them more expensive if they wanted something similar.

#1 is a strange one.  I don't think most "secular" people are pro-life, regardless of political stripe.  so, really this is a "religious -vs- not religious" issue.

#2 I think most Republicans are blatant hypocrites on this one.  rather than making it impossible for businesses to HIRE "illegals", the GOP blithely ignores enforcement and fining for them.  thus, since the INCENTIVE continues to exist, the PROBLEM continues to exist.

#3 this is another naked hypocrisy.  when it comes to building prisons, armies, and police forces, the GOP are ALL IN for socialism, and increasing the size of "the state".  when it comes to the WELFARE state, they are against it.  for brown people.

I think that the problem here is that a lot of these "stances" are code words.  they don't really mean what most people would think that they LITERALLY mean.  and because of that, if you are OPPOSED to these "stances", that doesn't mean what people think it means, either.

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/


This is pulled from official policy in 2016, but I think its a little off even so. It does not cover real beliefs of individuals matched to their religious or not identity. The Catholic Church is far more strict than the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church. I have personal long term experience with the latter. The Wisconsin synod, which isnt even mentioned, is more hard core. It does depend what church and region you belong in. The district my birth church was in really belongs in the blue column with the ELCA. 

US Catholics I've learned go far more against the church's teachings than this midwestern Lutheran would have ever guessed. It could be partly regional, but I do think at the very least it is US wide. US Catholics are more forgiving of pre martial sex, cheating, and other things than Lutherans. I have a feeling this extends to abortion. It is probably the usual Catholic thing of if you can hide it, it doesn't count.

[Opti]

Support for abortion if needed is widespread in the US. However it is strongly against policy for Catholics and Evangelicals. Most of those who identify as that religion I think are not religious. Its a social thing. Like if you are in the South, you go to church. 

So I don't and won't see it as a religious divide. I think its something that people put in their social basket, and I personally have been horrified reading how those faux religious folk have justified only caring if the fetus is brought to term. It is so like manic gun buying and the need for the military to be bigger than anywhere else on the planet. It is an emotional need. It has in most cases, no legit religious basis. 

My current local church falls into the most expansive blue bucket FWIW.

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Dec 22, 2021 15:35:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 22, 2021 15:25:34 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

 This is really what it comes down to.  They feel like the are losing their rights because others are gaining rights, like rights are finite and there are only so many to go around. This scares the crap out of them.  The violence they created on Jan 6 was out of fear more than anger.  They aren't angry, then are scared!

you know what is funny?  conservatives don't feel that ECONOMICS is a zero sum game.  they can see how ALL OF US can become more wealthy, at the expense of nobody.

but when it comes to civil rights, that is how they see it.  or more aptly, that is what they FEEL, because there is no evidence whatsoever that white (men) folks are losing their rights to non-whites or non-males.

I have spent the last four years thinking about this survey and it's implications.  I would suggest that most of you do the same, if you plan on staying here.  I would also suggest you consider the person that precipitated it: OBAMA.

before Obama, white men could satisfy themselves that they had nothing to worry about.  that they were ALWAYS going to be the bosses, and that "others" would be servile.  but there is one thing that Obama is absolutely not, and it is servile.  and that scared the shit out of them, even if they were NOT willing to admit it.

I don't think this is a conservative POV, but more an entrepenurial mindset. Probably lands more on the conservative side for now, but remember the prosperity gospel and things like EST & Landmark all promote somewhat similar views.

In practice though, many act to secure all or most for themselves, leaving little for others. This is Trumpian. My win is better not because I get the stuff I want, but because I crush and take things away from you in the process. Think of all the special peeps who thought there were loads of liberal tears for their enjoyment. Unlike them, not sure I am enjoying the conservative tears or angst, except in some limited circumstances.