The Cult of Trump

[billisonboard]

Jul 16, 2023 11:13:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Guliani descended into being pure attention whore, willing to pander to Trump in order to be in the national spotlight.

A serial killer got arrested last week near New York and the media is camped out in front of his house while the cops search it. Who shows up - Guliani, grinning at the cameras, waving to the people.

Sad.

Descended? Was he ever not an attention whore?

[tallguy]

Jul 16, 2023 11:30:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jul 16, 2023 11:13:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Guliani descended into being pure attention whore, willing to pander to Trump in order to be in the national spotlight.

A serial killer got arrested last week near New York and the media is camped out in front of his house while the cops search it. Who shows up - Guliani, grinning at the cameras, waving to the people.

Sad.

Descended? Was he ever not an attention whore?

Not that I recall.  He was pretty aggressive in taking credit (deserved or not) even as mayor, if I remember correctly.  (I'm not from New York, so maybe I don't....)

[Tennesseer]

Jul 16, 2023 16:04:49 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 16, 2023 11:30:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Descended? Was he ever not an attention whore?

Not that I recall.  He was pretty aggressive in taking credit (deserved or not) even as mayor, if I remember correctly.  (I'm not from New York, so maybe I don't....)

He was.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 16, 2023 8:52:48 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jul 16, 2023 8:27:34 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Speaking of chickens coming home to roost, Guiliani isn’t doing so good, either.

slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/07/dc-bar-rudy-giuliani-takedown-disbarment.html

Rudy Giuliani will forever be the object lesson in how to completely trash one's reputation and squander massive amounts of public goodwill.  I'm not sure that anyone anywhere even comes close. 

so true.  the country was in the palm of his hand.  and through a long succession of ridiculous missteps and criminality, he has lost it all.  or will soon.

[Tennesseer]

A neuroscientist warns: We're watching the largest and most dangerous 'cult' in American history

I was dying…It was just a matter of time. Lying behind the wheel of the airplane, bleeding out of the right side of my devastated body, I waited for the rapid shooting to stop.

—Former Representative Jackie Speier in her memoir Undaunted: Surviving Jonestown, Summoning Courage, and Fighting Back recounting her experience after being shot five times during an ambush during her fact-finding visit to Jonestown, Guyana where Jim Jones and his cult, Peoples Temple, had built a compound.

It, combined with everything else that was going on, made it difficult to breathe…Being crushed by the shield and the people behind it … leaving me defenseless, injured.

—Metropolitan police officer, Daniel Hodges, describing being crushed in a doorway during the January 6, 2021, attack by Trump supporters on the U.S. Capitol.

In both of the examples above, the individual speaking was the victim of extreme violence perpetrated by followers of a single person whose influence had spread to hundreds of people (in the January 6th case, thousands of people). In fact, Speier’s experience with the Jim Jones followers was part of the single greatest loss of American life (918 people) prior to 9/11/2001. These followings have been given an umbrella name, cult, and have involved what has been traditionally called “brainwashing.” The cult leader receives seemingly undying support as the Dear Leader or Savior. However, the term brainwashing suggests that indoctrinated members are robots without free will – behavioral scientists argue that this is not the case. It’s an oversimplification.

Rather than being seen as passive victims to an irresistible force, psychiatrist Robert Lifton argues that there is “voluntary self-surrender” in one’s entrance into a cult. Further, the decision to give up control as part of the cult process may actually be part of the reason why people join. Research and experience tell us that those who are “cult vulnerable” may have a sense of confusion or separation from society or seek the same sort of highly controlled environment that was part of their childhood. It has also been suggested that those who are at risk for cult membership feel an enormous lack of control in the face of uncertainty (i.e., economic, occupational, academic, social, familial) and will gravitate more towards a cult as their distress increases. I would argue that many of these factors are at play when we see the ongoing support of Trumpism and MAGA “theology.”

Rest of article here: A neuroscientist warns: We're watching the largest and most dangerous 'cult' in American history

[happyhoix]

It is a cult. MAGA refused to believe anything that isn’t generated by a fellow MAGA - no news stations, even FOX news, can be believed. MAGA won’t believe other GOPers - even those like Bill Barr and Michael Cohen and Chris Christie - people who knew him for years, and worked intimately with him either in his business or political campaign or admin - no matter how conservative they are, or how long they’ve voted GOP, or even if they voted for Trump, if they say anything critical of their leader, they can no longer be believed.

They aren’t even GOPers anymore.

What has to happen for the GOP to be able to break free from the cult? Clearly, even charging Trump for all his myriad criminal acts won’t do it.

I don’t think Trump can win, in 2024, barring any huge economic or terroristic event that could bring down Biden. Not only can’t Trump win, I think this will be a rout for all the MAGA GOP candidates, because I think the MAGA voters, faced with voting for Trump or Biden, will simply stay home, and that will have a huge impact on the down ballot races.

Maybe that’s what the GOP needs. A house cleaning, which will force a post election re-evaluation, and hopefully a realization.

[billisonboard]

I think the GOP Leadership did a serious re-evaluation immediately after January 6th. Their speeches are easy to find. After they gave those speeches they turned around and found few followers. No reason to believe a future re-evaluation will move any voters their way. "We" can hope principle will win out, but reality is votes are what matter. 

[djAdvocate]

Tenn- do you mind copying your post to the Trump Cult thread?  highly germane.

[Tennesseer]

Aug 5, 2023 12:09:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Tenn- do you mind copying your post to the Trump Cult thread?  highly germane.

Gjve it a few minutes. Asked the mods to merge this thread with the Trump Cult thread..

[djAdvocate]

congrats to Bob Ross for creating maybe the second most resonant thread on the board.
this keeps coming up over and over again.
and for good reason.

[Opti]

Aug 5, 2023 11:57:09 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think the GOP Leadership did a serious re-evaluation immediately after January 6th. Their speeches are easy to find. After they gave those speeches they turned around and found few followers. No reason to believe a future re-evaluation will move any voters their way. "We" can hope principle will win out, but reality is votes are what matter. 

I think they wanted traction too soon. Trump didn't build his cult in a day, it took time. Deprogramming them will take time.

[djAdvocate]

we are dealing with a cult, and the cult leader is a fascist.  voting is a highly imperfect solution to the problem.  Opti is right.  the republic will fail if we wait for the Trump voters to come around.  

keep something else in mind.  Trump's success is built on suffering.  SOME of the suffering came at the hands of Democrats.  be honest.  and some of it just happened- IE global warming.  but the more people suffer, the more they are afraid, the more likely Trump will succeed.  this is why i don't like WAITING on this, either.  waiting means more suffering.  more suffering means that Trump will become MORE popular over time with the sufferers.  

what changes this is too complicated for this post, but you can look into what it takes to deprogram cult members.  a lot of good academic and consulting work has been done on this in the last 50+ years.  we can do it.  but we need a national effort to do it.  and it needs the power of the majority.

[billisonboard]

Aug 5, 2023 10:18:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

A neuroscientist warns: We're watching the largest and most dangerous 'cult' in American history

I was dying…It was just a matter of time. Lying behind the wheel of the airplane, bleeding out of the right side of my devastated body, I waited for the rapid shooting to stop.

—Former Representative Jackie Speier in her memoir Undaunted: Surviving Jonestown, Summoning Courage, and Fighting Back recounting her experience after being shot five times during an ambush during her fact-finding visit to Jonestown, Guyana where Jim Jones and his cult, Peoples Temple, had built a compound.

It, combined with everything else that was going on, made it difficult to breathe…Being crushed by the shield and the people behind it … leaving me defenseless, injured.

—Metropolitan police officer, Daniel Hodges, describing being crushed in a doorway during the January 6, 2021, attack by Trump supporters on the U.S. Capitol.

In both of the examples above, the individual speaking was the victim of extreme violence perpetrated by followers of a single person whose influence had spread to hundreds of people (in the January 6th case, thousands of people). In fact, Speier’s experience with the Jim Jones followers was part of the single greatest loss of American life (918 people) prior to 9/11/2001. These followings have been given an umbrella name, cult, and have involved what has been traditionally called “brainwashing.” The cult leader receives seemingly undying support as the Dear Leader or Savior. However, the term brainwashing suggests that indoctrinated members are robots without free will – behavioral scientists argue that this is not the case. It’s an oversimplification.

Rather than being seen as passive victims to an irresistible force, psychiatrist Robert Lifton argues that there is “voluntary self-surrender” in one’s entrance into a cult. Further, the decision to give up control as part of the cult process may actually be part of the reason why people join. Research and experience tell us that those who are “cult vulnerable” may have a sense of confusion or separation from society or seek the same sort of highly controlled environment that was part of their childhood. It has also been suggested that those who are at risk for cult membership feel an enormous lack of control in the face of uncertainty (i.e., economic, occupational, academic, social, familial) and will gravitate more towards a cult as their distress increases. I would argue that many of these factors are at play when we see the ongoing support of Trumpism and MAGA “theology.”

Rest of article here: A neuroscientist warns: We're watching the largest and most dangerous 'cult' in American history

I was reading the opinion piece thinking, "Yes, okay" got to

What can be done?

then two short paragraphs with very generic ideas, and, bam, it was done. I wished there was more.

[billisonboard]

Aug 5, 2023 13:42:24 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

we are dealing with a cult, and the cult leader is a fascist.  voting is a highly imperfect solution to the problem.  Opti is right.  the republic will fail if we wait for the Trump voters to come around.  

keep something else in mind.  Trump's success is built on suffering.  SOME of the suffering came at the hands of Democrats.  be honest.  and some of it just happened- IE global warming.  but the more people suffer, the more they are afraid, the more likely Trump will succeed.  this is why i don't like WAITING on this, either.  waiting means more suffering.  more suffering means that Trump will become MORE popular over time with the sufferers.  

what changes this is too complicated for this post, but you can look into what it takes to deprogram cult members.  a lot of good academic and consulting work has been done on this in the last 50+ years.  we can do it.  but we need a national effort to do it.  and it needs the power of the majority.

Great final statement. How do we establish it has the power of the majority if not by voting cult leaders out of power.

[djAdvocate]

there are a million things that could throw our country into the hands of a fascist.  we could enter a recession.  Biden could become ill or incapacitated.  the uncertainties surrounding the election are far too much to gamble on.  i liken not using the courts to help resolve this to not carrying insurance.  sure, you can do that.  and you risk disaster.

that is precisely what the anti-legal-solution community are suggesting for us.

[billisonboard]

Aug 5, 2023 13:56:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

there are a million things that could throw our country into the hands of a fascist.  we could enter a recession.  Biden could become ill or incapacitated.  the uncertainties surrounding the election are far too much to gamble on.  i liken not using the courts to help resolve this to not carrying insurance.  sure, you can do that.  and you risk disaster.

that is precisely what the anti-legal-solution community are suggesting for us.

Insurance is reactive to a disaster that has taken place. It is not a preventative measure. There is no judicial solution to Trump winning in 2024.

[djAdvocate]

justice is ALSO a response to violations of rights and norms.

i disagree fervently that justice cannot be a solution to the problem.  they can. 

having said that, i am not claiming in this thread that it is a solution to this particular problem.  i only claimed that voting isn't.  2016 and 1932 are the best cases i can offer you right now.  a minority in both cases elevated a man who had no interest in the republican order.  both men used petty grievances to garner support from one group and hatred of another.  the only difference so far is that our judicial system has been a bulwark against the oppression offered by one.

since i appear to have been unclear in my position, it is this: that the courts can educate the public as to why this man is unfit for the office in a way that the MEDIA, who has become so wildly bifurcated at this juncture as to NOT be sufficient to the cause of informing voters (as it is in ALL countries that have fallen to fascists) due to massive and effective propaganda on the part of fascist's supporters.  so, i am saying that justice can INFLUENCE the electorate in a manner sufficient to undermine fascists.  

of course they could do better than that, but probably won't.  

[billisonboard]

2020 is the best case I can offer for voting working. 

[NastyWoman]

Aug 5, 2023 15:59:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

2020 is the best case I can offer for voting working. 

And January 6th is proof that this is a very fragile version of "working"

[billisonboard]

Aug 7, 2023 21:46:58 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Aug 5, 2023 15:59:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

2020 is the best case I can offer for voting working. 

And January 6th is proof that this is a very fragile version of "working"

The reality from the start:

In the aftermath of the violent events at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021, one year ago today, Senator Amy Klobuchar and other federal legislators reminded us that we have “a republic,” but only “if you can keep it.” The source of this quotation is a journal kept by James McHenry (1753-1816) while he was a Maryland delegate to the Constitutional Convention. On the page where McHenry records the events of the last day of the convention, September 18, 1787, he wrote: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy – A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.”

[djAdvocate]

Aug 7, 2023 21:46:58 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Aug 5, 2023 15:59:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

2020 is the best case I can offer for voting working. 

And January 6th is proof that this is a very fragile version of "working"

exactly.  what has happened since 2020 gives me MORE cause for concern.  not less.

in fact, i will go further.  we have 30% of the population that seems to no longer believe in elections in the US.  prior to 2020, i would have put the number much lower.

[thyme4change]

Aug 7, 2023 23:52:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 7, 2023 21:46:58 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

And January 6th is proof that this is a very fragile version of "working"

exactly.  what has happened since 2020 gives me MORE cause for concern.  not less.

in fact, i will go further.  we have 30% of the population that seems to no longer believe in elections in the US.  prior to 2020, i would have put the number much lower.

They think they believe in the concept, but not the process, which at least gives us hope that they can be brought back. But we need to get rid of a swathe of influential people first.

[billisonboard]

I think a major problem is identified here: Voters need help: How party insiders can make presidential primaries safer, fairer, and more democratic

Presidential-nominating contests in both major political parties are at risk of producing nominees who aren’t competent to govern and/or don’t represent a majority of the party’s voters. Raymond La Raja and Jonathan Rauch argue this is a result of the declining role of party insiders in the nomination process and call for the reversal of that trend. Primaries function best, they claim, when voters and party professionals work in partnership.

Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. The history of presidential primaries
III. Problems with the present process
IV. The promise of professional vetting
V. Proposed reforms

[thyme4change]

No primaries, ranked voting, done. But that won’t solve it either.

The problem is someone very powerful told a bunch of people there was errors in a system that was not compromised. And they were told that over and over and over and over and over and over - non-stop for like 6 years. And still very few people they respect will come forward and say the election was legitimate.

[billisonboard]

Aug 8, 2023 9:55:58 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

No primaries, ranked voting, done. But that won’t solve it either.

The problem is someone very powerful told a bunch of people there was errors in a system that was not compromised. And they were told that over and over and over and over and over and over - non-stop for like 6 years. And still very few people they respect will come forward and say the election was legitimate.

My read is that someone with moderate celebrity power "... told a bunch of people ..." and they proceeded to made him very powerful because he was telling them what they were predisposed to believe. I don't know who they "respect" enough to make them change their minds. Fox tried and they turned to Newsmax.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 7, 2023 23:52:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 7, 2023 21:46:58 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

And January 6th is proof that this is a very fragile version of "working"

exactly.  what has happened since 2020 gives me MORE cause for concern.  not less.

in fact, i will go further.  we have 30% of the population that seems to no longer believe in elections in the US.  prior to 2020, i would have put the number much lower.

This is what I do not understand.  Every place where 'fraud' was claimed (the reason why many don't vote), the amount of inaccuracies were really inconsiderable if you take into account the amount of votes that were tabulated.  Ironically, most of the deliberate fraud can be attributed to those voting for the GQP.  TBH, I think this is pretty outstanding.

www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-review-finds-far-too-little-vote-fraud-to-tip-2020-election-to-trump

[Icelandic Woman]

[thyme4change]

Aug 8, 2023 12:38:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 7, 2023 23:52:07 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

exactly.  what has happened since 2020 gives me MORE cause for concern.  not less.

in fact, i will go further.  we have 30% of the population that seems to no longer believe in elections in the US.  prior to 2020, i would have put the number much lower.

This is what I do not understand.  Every place where 'fraud' was claimed (the reason why many don't vote), the amount of inaccuracies were really inconsiderable if you take into account the amount of votes that were tabulated.  Ironically, most of the deliberate fraud can be attributed to those voting for the GQP.  TBH, I think this is pretty outstanding.

www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-review-finds-far-too-little-vote-fraud-to-tip-2020-election-to-trump

I don’t know about Michigan - but pretty much everyone in power in Maricopa County was a Republican. The governor, the attorney general, the chairman of the board of supervisors, the county recorder, the head of elections and more. I believe Georgia was the same way. If someone was fixing the election - it was the Republicans. There weren’t enough democrats in powerful enough positions to run a conspiracy like that.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Aug 10, 2023 13:48:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Aug 8, 2023 12:38:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

This is what I do not understand.  Every place where 'fraud' was claimed (the reason why many don't vote), the amount of inaccuracies were really inconsiderable if you take into account the amount of votes that were tabulated.  Ironically, most of the deliberate fraud can be attributed to those voting for the GQP.  TBH, I think this is pretty outstanding.

www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-review-finds-far-too-little-vote-fraud-to-tip-2020-election-to-trump

I don’t know about Michigan - but pretty much everyone in power in Maricopa County was a Republican. The governor, the attorney general, the chairman of the board of supervisors, the county recorder, the head of elections and more. I believe Georgia was the same way. If someone was fixing the election - it was the Republicans. There weren’t enough democrats in powerful enough positions to run a conspiracy like that.

Exactly.  If Republicans looking for fraud can't find any, what does that say about claiming that votes were fraudulently made?  Not horribly bright, is it?

[tallguy]

Aug 10, 2023 13:56:11 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Aug 10, 2023 13:48:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don’t know about Michigan - but pretty much everyone in power in Maricopa County was a Republican. The governor, the attorney general, the chairman of the board of supervisors, the county recorder, the head of elections and more. I believe Georgia was the same way. If someone was fixing the election - it was the Republicans. There weren’t enough democrats in powerful enough positions to run a conspiracy like that.

Exactly.  If Republicans looking for fraud can't find any, what does that say about claiming that votes were fraudulently made?  Not horribly bright, is it?

Trump and his supporters have NEVER been accused of being particularly bright.