billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 27, 2021 7:49:48 GMT -5
Don't need a clear case for causation when exercising constitutional rights. Don't need any case at all. If you're a criminal attacking someone, you can die long before any police officer has the chance to treat you badly. Gosh, in Texas a bill allowing open carry of handguns by anybody at all who's at least 21 is either on the governor's desk or has already been signed. No license, no background check, no nothing. Just go ahead and be ready to shoot 'em up. I've got a swell idea. Why not just permanently lower all American flags to half mast? We've had that in our state for years.
Crime rates have dropped. Flying the flag high and proud. See happy's good explanation on the difference between constitutional rights vs privilege, just a few posts back. (reply #27) There is no constitutional right to post unquestioned the causal claim bolded above.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 27, 2021 8:09:39 GMT -5
There is no constitutional right to post unquestioned the causal claim bolded above. Never heard of the First Amendment ? Works for both of us. Does explain your stance on the Second. Let me reiterate, our crime rates have dropped. Yes, I can post this, whether you answer or not. You mean this one? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Not seeing anything there that gives you the right to not be questioned by a fellow citizen on what you post on a message board. And crime rates have dropped in many places.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 27, 2021 9:50:31 GMT -5
Interesting article: After repeated ATF warnings, gun dealers can count on the agency to back off; sometimes firearms flow to criminalsOn Main Street in Man, West Virginia, a woman marched through the front door of Uncle Sam’s Loans, a cavernous pawn shop packed with hunting bows, fishing lures and camping supplies for the residents of this small Appalachian town. Behind the counter hung the linchpin of Uncle Sam’s business: guns. The woman flashed her credentials, which revealed that she was an investigator with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the nation’s gun industry watchdog. She was here to make sure Uncle Sam’s had cleaned up its act. This was the ATF’s third inspection of Uncle Sam’s in seven years. The two most recent audits found that the store had transferred weapons without conducting background checks and failed to provide safety notices to handgun buyers. At one point, ATF records show, more than 600 firearms that should have been in stock could not be found – a red flag for gun trafficking. In both cases, the violations were serious enough to warrant stripping Uncle Sam’s of its license to sell guns, according to ATF records. But agency officials decided to spare the shop, issue an official warning to its owners and give them another chance to prove they could follow the rules. As the investigator leafed through handwritten ledgers in the spring of 2014, she discovered that things had hardly improved. Sales records were incomplete, the store failed to report required information to law enforcement, and safety notices still weren’t going out. The inspector typed out her findings and sent them to her superiors. Their decision: Issue yet another warning. Months later, the ATF learned that Uncle Sam’s was the backbone of a sprawling gun trafficking scheme. Witnesses told the agency that Steven Adkins, a longtime shop employee who’d purchased a stake in the business, had enlisted a host of people, including a colleague’s girlfriend and his brother-in-law, to falsify paperwork so it would appear they had purchased guns in legitimate transactions, according to court records. In reality, the guns were used to bribe coal officials in a pay-to-play scheme at a local mine. Others were sold on the black market, witnesses said. One accomplice told investigators “hundreds, if not thousands of firearms” had been trafficked through Uncle Sam’s. According to court records, he recalled parking his truck around the back of the store, loading up guns and delivering them to a convicted felon. Another accomplice said he drove guns from Uncle Sam’s to Adkins’s home, where Adkins allegedly sold them out of his basement. Complete article here: link
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 27, 2021 10:17:27 GMT -5
Just another law abiding gun dealer
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 27, 2021 10:25:33 GMT -5
Developing technology that would require fingerprint identification to unlock a gun before it is fired could cut down on younger persons using a parent's weapon. Disenfranchising lower income citizens from exercising their constitutional rights by cost. Good luck with that. I hadn't realized guns were free for lower income citizens now? Are you advocating for a sliding scale on pricing? The poor should get gun subsidies?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2021 13:06:06 GMT -5
Developing technology that would require fingerprint identification to unlock a gun before it is fired could cut down on younger persons using a parent's weapon. Disenfranchising lower income citizens from exercising their constitutional rights by cost. Good luck with that. Why not? We already do that with abortions. Poor women can’t afford to travel long distances to the only abortion clinic in the state, for instance. Wealthy and middle class women can. Haven’t heard any far righty’s crying about that.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 28, 2021 11:22:03 GMT -5
I hadn't realized guns were free for lower income citizens now? Are you advocating for a sliding scale on pricing? The poor should get gun subsidies? You seem rather uninformed. A little light reading on how it works, this as one example. Quote; Democratic frontrunner Elizabeth Warren has devised a way to disarm the poor — a steep national gun tax of 30 percent and an ammunition tax of 50 percent.
Her plan would triple the federal excise tax from its current 10 percent (for handguns) and 11 percent (for shotguns and rifles) and nearly quintuple the ammunition tax from its current 11 percent.
The burden of the tax will fall on the people, not the manufacturer.
Under the Warren gun tax plan, parents seeking a typical $400 shotgun to protect their family would have to come up with $520.
Who would be unable to buy guns because of the Warren gun tax? Certainly not the oft-mentioned “millionaires and billionaires” she claims to want to stick it to. Many poor households will be unable to afford a gun to protect their home.
www.thetruthaboutguns.com/elizabeth-warran-wants-to-tax-guns-out-of-the-reach-of-the-poor/Perhaps. I know sometimes I'm misinformed - it's always right after reading one of your posts.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 28, 2021 12:09:12 GMT -5
38,000 were killed in car accidents in 2019, while 14,000 were murdered by guns. A good portion of those murders were gang related and they will get guns no matter what legislation is passed. I get it. It’s scary to think one lunatic can get a gun and take out 20-30 people. But I have a much greater chance of being killed in a car accident than I do of being murdered by someone with a gunGet back to me when you find a definitive study on deaths per vehicle trip compared to deaths per bullet fired in a public setting. I'm guessing that one number would be MANY, MANY multiples of the other, and it's not the one you are apparently afraid of.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 28, 2021 13:01:47 GMT -5
There is no constitutional right to post unquestioned the causal claim bolded above. Never heard of the First Amendment ? Works for both of us. Does explain your stance on the Second. Let me reiterate, our crime rates have dropped. Yes, I can post this, whether you answer or not. You could also claim your crime rates have dropped because it’s raining more. Are you one of the states with a reduction in population? Reduction in younger adults as they move out? Has the economy improved or tanked? And when you say crime do you mean just murder rates by gun? Or dog snatching, purse stealing, identity theft, kidnapping, etc? I know a place that grows the best pot in the country. Very low population density, everyone is armed. Also has a very high rate of murder per capita, and the highest rate of missing people in the country, no, not an inner city, this is a very mountainous wooded area where Yeti supposedly roam. I wonder if the yeti are armed like all the humans?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 29, 2021 8:26:00 GMT -5
You could also claim your crime rates have dropped because it’s raining more. Are you one of the states with a reduction in population? Reduction in younger adults as they move out? Has the economy improved or tanked? And when you say crime do you mean just murder rates by gun? Or dog snatching, purse stealing, identity theft, kidnapping, etc? I know a place that grows the best pot in the country. Very low population density, everyone is armed. Also has a very high rate of murder per capita, and the highest rate of missing people in the country, no, not an inner city, this is a very mountainous wooded area where Yeti supposedly roam. I wonder if the yeti are armed like all the humans? Lost me at the yeti. Do they ride unicorns ? Yes you are the king of deflection aren’t you. Let me summarize- nice rural area, everyone has guns, no one messes with anyone else because everyone has guns, all the women folk are perfectly safe, right? Isn’t that the perfect utopia for gun owners? So why is it such a dangerous place? This is Humbolt county California. And no, no yetis, so don’t let that distract you from a real answer, one like ‘I guess a fully armed public doesn’t necessarily mean perfect law and order like I keep insisting.’
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 30, 2021 10:51:47 GMT -5
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jun 1, 2021 19:28:21 GMT -5
I come from a culture that all household with an adult males have an assault weapon at home. Not the US. Yet no mass killings. The US has a society problem beyond guns.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 7:51:31 GMT -5
I come from a culture that all household with an adult males have an assault weapon at home. Not the US. Yet no mass killings. The US has a society problem beyond guns.
Yes it does. Guns are not the problem. Agree that guns aren't the problem. The place they hold in our cultural psyche is the problem.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 8:43:08 GMT -5
Agree that guns aren't the problem. The place they hold in our cultural psyche is the problem. Yes, all households should be like obelisk's country. He says there are no mass killings. In this country their is a cultural psyche that inanimate objects kill people. That's a problem. obelisk posted "culture" not country. It would be interesting to get more details of that culture before suggesting we should adopt one piece. This country's focus on limiting gun features isn't at all helpful. We need to focus on the individuals who are holding the guns and their qualifications.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 10:28:27 GMT -5
obelisk posted "culture" not country. It would be interesting to get more details of that culture before suggesting we should adopt one piece. This country's focus on limiting gun features isn't at all helpful. We need to focus on the individuals who are holding the guns and their qualifications. Cultures reside within countries. Efforts should be made to remove weapons from criminals or the criminals from society, vs laws that will only be followed by those who follow the laws. Restricting weaspons by style, not function is nonsense. Automatic weapons are only available by special federal license since the 1930's. In countries based on freedom/choice like ours, the citizens are deciding to exercise their constitutional rights by purchase. Multiple cultures can exist with nation-state boundaries. This is particularly the case when lines were originally drawn by colonial powers. Cultures can also exist which are not limited by nation-state lines. I am just respecting the term that obelisk selected on the assumption it was selected on purpose. I would argue our country is based on consent of the governed. The Constitution governs us because we have decided to be governed by it. People are not purchasing guns to exercise their Constitutional right. They are purchasing guns out of fear. I do think some out of fear guns will be banned. That is why it is important to counter the idea that repeal of the 2nd Amendment is not a gun ban but a moving of the right to own to a privilege to own based on reasonable requirements. I support closing the barn door before the horses escape.
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jun 2, 2021 13:23:56 GMT -5
Yes, all households should be like obelisk's country. He says there are no mass killings. In this country their is a cultural psyche that inanimate objects kill people. That's a problem. obelisk posted "culture" not country. It would be interesting to get more details of that culture before suggesting we should adopt one piece. This country's focus on limiting gun features isn't at all helpful. We need to focus on the individuals who are holding the guns and their qualifications. The country is Switzerland (military service is mandatory) the soldiers are evaluated before they can take their assault weapon home.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 13:40:26 GMT -5
obelisk posted "culture" not country. It would be interesting to get more details of that culture before suggesting we should adopt one piece. This country's focus on limiting gun features isn't at all helpful. We need to focus on the individuals who are holding the guns and their qualifications. The country is Switzerland (military service is mandatory) the soldiers are evaluated before they can take their assault weapon home. Thank you. So all household with the gun has a military trained person who has been evaluated for fitness to possess the firearm. That sounds like it could roughly fall under a "well regulated Militia" definition and something I could see supporting if the majority went for it. Is that what you had in mind for this country, @x?
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jun 2, 2021 14:15:44 GMT -5
The country is Switzerland (military service is mandatory) the soldiers are evaluated before they can take their assault weapon home. Thank you. So all household with the gun has a military trained person who has been evaluated for fitness to possess the firearm. That sounds like it could roughly fall under a "well regulated Militia" definition and something I could see supporting if the majority went for it. Is that what you had in mind for this country, @x ? Evaluated psychologically as well. If you don't pass you don't take your weapon home.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 17:26:12 GMT -5
Agree that guns aren't the problem. The place they hold in our cultural psyche is the problem. Yes, all households should be like obelisk's country.
He says there are no mass killings. In this country their is a cultural psyche that inanimate objects kill people. That's a problem. Thank you. So all household with the gun has a military trained person who has been evaluated for fitness to possess the firearm. That sounds like it could roughly fall under a "well regulated Militia" definition and something I could see supporting if the majority went for it. Is that what you had in mind for this country, @x ? The well regulated militia is now defined by the affirmation of the individual right. That argument is a moot point since 2008. So no, that's not what I had in mind. (bolded) I follow law interpretation by the Supreme Court of the United States, not military permissions in Switzerland. District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), was a landmark decision of the US Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, unconnected with service in a militia.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller So all households shouldn't be like them? I mean, with the exception of a gun. Seems like a focus on an inanimate object instead of the people possessing them. I wonder if the other parts of the culture account for the lack of mass shootings.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 2, 2021 21:36:58 GMT -5
So all households shouldn't be like them? I mean, with the exception of a gun. Seems like a focus on an inanimate object instead of the people possessing them. I wonder if the other parts of the culture account for the lack of mass shootings. You might have a problem seeing sarcasm. I mean it's understandable. You fail to see 'cultures' as a multiple. Hate it when that happens.
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