Do People Just Not Want To Work Anymore?

[Lizard Queen]

Assuming we fund the government through our tax dollars, why should less well off have to pay a much larger % of their income than the wealthy? Just because the benefits the wealthy get from the government are much more hidden does not mean they do not get outsized benefits--legal, infrastructure, security.

[thyme4change]

Dec 2, 2021 9:06:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Dec 1, 2021 21:22:35 GMT -5 nidena said:

I will be the first to admit that my viewpoint is very narrow in exposure, having worked in this industry only 15 months.  And I also do what I call flip-side regards of how I perceive many of these very well-off folx.  By that, I mean, that I imagine that there are people with less money than I who would regard what I have and what I do with my money the same way that I regard these quite well off folx.

However, it doesn't make me struggle to understand why there is a need to maintain a $20,000 MONTHLY budget.  In Indiana.  

I always joked that I define "excess" as anyone who spends more than I do in various categories!   I'm nowhere near $20K/month (and I'm also in a LCOL area).  A giant mortgage could certainly contribute to that but then who needs that much house (and all the attendant costs for utilities and upkeep)?

My concern about taxing away the "excess wealth" of the ultra-rich is that for everyone who spends it on hookers and blow and sending people into space, there are the Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey and Bill Gates types who try to do good.  Frankly, I trust them to do a better job of it since it's their own money rather than letting the US gubmint parcel it out.  In my own case, what I give to charity is a direct function of my AFTER-tax income.  You make me pay more taxes, I have less left to give away.

And, like Thyme and CCL, I don't like it when "millionaire" is used as a pejorative and an excuse to tax, tax, tax.  Yes, it takes some advantages (in my case, being born with marketable skills, good health, a family that valued education, good role models) but it also takes delayed gratification, discipline and good decisions.  Plenty of people with those advantages have blown it all.  And now they want tax money from me to prop them up.

Buffet, Winfrey and Gates have spent plenty on hookers and blow type luxuries. Gates owns an island.

The best way to help people with few resources isn't charity - it is a healthy economy with living wage jobs in every corner of the "skills" spectrum.

I don't have a problem with people having a lot of money - but the federal government has been subsidizing the Waltons and Jeff Bezos for years (obviously more years for Walmart than Amazon). And because those companies set the standard, the federal government subsidizes all the other employers in that space too. As a tax payer, I demand better. And if I get caught in the net and have to pay more taxes, so be it.

Every society, all through history, when the wealth gap gets too large and the people at the bottom have nothing to lose, things get ugly. Empires fall, lives are destroyed. Something always rises from the ashes, but wouldn't it be more comfortable if we just cut out the painful stuff and even out the resources a little without having to have a bloody revolt.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2021 10:00:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The best way to help people with few resources isn't charity - it is a healthy economy with living wage jobs in every corner of the "skills" spectrum.

I don't have a problem with people having a lot of money - but the federal government has been subsidizing the Waltons and Jeff Bezos for years (obviously more years for Walmart than Amazon). And because those companies set the standard, the federal government subsidizes all the other employers in that space too. As a tax payer, I demand better. And if I get caught in the net and have to pay more taxes, so be it.

I agree that we're subsidizing Wal-Mart, Amazon and other minimum-wage employers through all the subsidies we pay low-wage workers- housing, EBT cards, Earned Income Credit, Medicaid, etc. But look what got us here. I'm old enough to remember when you could (modestly) support a family on a job in retail. Then Wal-Mart and Amazon came along and we went for Cheap. Not only that- people would go into the local store and have a long conversation with the staff about, say, cameras, leave without buying anything and get it cheaper on-line. Why go to the regular shoe store when you can get a plastic version at PayLess? And now, with Amazon Prime (and all the Mom and Pop stores run out of business by Amazon and Wal-Mart), why go anywhere else?

The crappy working conditions are the price of "free" shipping.

[thyme4change]

The cost of doing the right thing is paying an extra buck for a bottle of shampoo and having it delivered the day after tomorrow instead of 3 hours from now. I can live with that, and society will adjust.

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 2, 2021 10:08:06 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Dec 2, 2021 10:00:11 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The best way to help people with few resources isn't charity - it is a healthy economy with living wage jobs in every corner of the "skills" spectrum.

I don't have a problem with people having a lot of money - but the federal government has been subsidizing the Waltons and Jeff Bezos for years (obviously more years for Walmart than Amazon). And because those companies set the standard, the federal government subsidizes all the other employers in that space too. As a tax payer, I demand better. And if I get caught in the net and have to pay more taxes, so be it.

I agree that we're subsidizing Wal-Mart, Amazon and other minimum-wage employers through all the subsidies we pay low-wage workers- housing, EBT cards, Earned Income Credit, Medicaid, etc. But look what got us here. I'm old enough to remember when you could (modestly) support a family on a job in retail. Then Wal-Mart and Amazon came along and we went for Cheap. Not only that- people would go into the local store and have a long conversation with the staff about, say, cameras, leave without buying anything and get it cheaper on-line. Why go to the regular shoe store when you can get a plastic version at PayLess? And now, with Amazon Prime (and all the Mom and Pop stores run out of business by Amazon and Wal-Mart), why go anywhere else?

The crappy working conditions are the price of "free" shipping.

It's not just about subsidizing low paid employees. Let's look at Amazon, for example. No foreign country is going to bother invading us to get ahold of my 1800sf house on <1/4 acre. They would to get ahold of the vast wealth that is Amazon. The US spends an outrageous sum each year on our military. I seem to recall Amazon paying zero federal income tax at least one year. Ain't that just lovely...

[apple 2]

Wal-Mart offends me on many levels. I do not shop there and I try very hard to buy local. 

Some people tell me they cannot live without Wal-Mart.  I wonder what they did pre Wal-Mart days.

[CCL]

Dec 2, 2021 8:49:56 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 1, 2021 10:38:37 GMT -5 CCL said:

That comment caught my attention, too. It took me 40 years to accumulate what I have. I've "earned" every penny of it.

I have also spent 40 (or 30) years accumulating wealth. I dont understand why I am taxed more on dollars earned from getting and education, getting out of bed, going to a place I don't always want to be, getting a bunch of grief from people I don't like, getting physical and mental pain, and not feeling like I have a lot of choices versus the money I earned by giving up a few niceties and setting money aside and forgetting it existed for a couple decades. It seems like they could be taxed the same at least - just to even the score.

I don't consider myself wealthy at all, don't have a million yet. Our income isn't high, either. I grew up with close to nothing, put myself thru college and worked my butt off for years. I don't think I should be penalized for that.

Sometimes it seems like everything is backward.

[CCL]

I do think there's a big difference between Amazon and Walmart vs folks making $50k-$150k.

[thyme4change]

Dec 2, 2021 13:21:17 GMT -5 CCL said:

Dec 2, 2021 8:49:56 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have also spent 40 (or 30) years accumulating wealth. I dont understand why I am taxed more on dollars earned from getting and education, getting out of bed, going to a place I don't always want to be, getting a bunch of grief from people I don't like, getting physical and mental pain, and not feeling like I have a lot of choices versus the money I earned by giving up a few niceties and setting money aside and forgetting it existed for a couple decades. It seems like they could be taxed the same at least - just to even the score.

I don't consider myself wealthy at all, don't have a million yet. Our income isn't high, either. I grew up with close to nothing, put myself thru college and worked my butt off for years. I don't think I should be penalized for that.

Sometimes it seems like everything is backward.

I don't understand why you believe paying taxes on money you acquired due to investment growth is a "penalty".

What percentage of your investments are in IRAs and 401ks - because they have a different tax structure. This would only be applied to investments made in a regular brokerage account, but only the earnings, no the original principle. Do you feel like you shouldn't pay taxes on a bonus from work?

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2021 13:06:18 GMT -5 apple 2 said:

Wal-Mart offends me on many levels. I do not shop there and I try very hard to buy local. 

Some people tell me they cannot live without Wal-Mart.  I wonder what they did pre Wal-Mart days.

My family was modest- but certainly not poor.  We lived with fewer things (one pair of dress shoes, very little house redecorating), had hand-me-downs, Mom, my sister and I made most of our own clothes.  We mended things and sewed buttons back on.  I remember a winter coat that I got that cost more than usual.  The first year is was a "Sunday Best" coat and was looses, the second year it was just about the right fit but also Sundays only and the third year I wire it every day but it was getting tight.  (Not complaining- it taught me the benefits of staying the same size as an adult!)  Mom did all the cooking from basic ingredients (well, OK, she used cake mix) and McDonald's  or BK was a rare treat- maybe every few months.  But, to be realistic, I suspect that in very poor families, people wore shoes with holes in the soles and kids wore shoes even though they pinched their feet and needed a bigger size.

I don't shop at Wal-Mart, either.  I use Amazon only when I can't buy directly from the retailer (either bricks and mortar or the retailer's site) and I don't have a Prime membership.

[countrygirl2]

The best way to help people with few resources isn't charity - it is a healthy economy with living wage jobs in every corner of the "skills" spectrum.


Yes, why should the billionaires get the money and give some back? The individuals earning it should get it in the first place to decide how their money will be used.  So, they give money back but it's not the most efficient use of the money, the people earning it don't get to decide what they spend it on. I don't like that. 

The billionaires will likely still be billionaires, but maybe a billion less, big deal.

[Lizard Queen]

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

[nidena]

Here's a testament to why some people don't want to work...

Backstory: I'm a big advocate for discussing salary at work; mainly because I feel if they've been there longer than me, they're hourly wage (or hourly breakdown of their salary) should be more than what I make just based on the fact that they have more experience in the field.  We don't have the same bosses so there will be some differences but still...

So, in conversation with a coworker friend, we're discussing my frustration with my job and another coworker's name comes up, as does their salary.  I was appalled.  Not AT them but FOR them.  So, a little bit later, I go strike up a conversation with them.  "Hey, C, did you google the salary of your position before you came to work here?"  "No...."  "Go ahead, look it up."  And she does while I'm standing there.  Right there, on google's white screen it states that those in our job, at entry level with less than one year experience make approximately $40,000.  Mind you, when I did a search a year ago, it said the overall range was $40k-$65k so this hasn't changed much.  Anyhow, she currently makes $12/hr.  Working full time.  And for a boss who got pissed at her because she didn't pick up her *personal* phone while she was at a funeral nor on Thanksgiving.  Not her *work* phone.  Her *personal* phone.  And this is a guy who works in one of the outer/with a window offices so he's a successful guy and I'm sure I've seen his name on the monthly newsletters more than once for being in the Top Whatever.



Going back to my other post on the previous page...I just feel like that those who make more, donate such a smaller percentage than those who make less.  And at what point does it just become hoarding 1s and 0s.

I totally get having money in investments and savings so that you can draw from that later when you're no longer working but there really is a point where someone is just emulating Smaug.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Dec 2, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

[CCL]

Dec 2, 2021 13:46:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 2, 2021 13:21:17 GMT -5 CCL said:

I don't consider myself wealthy at all, don't have a million yet. Our income isn't high, either. I grew up with close to nothing, put myself thru college and worked my butt off for years. I don't think I should be penalized for that.

Sometimes it seems like everything is backward.

I don't understand why you believe paying taxes on money you acquired due to investment growth is a "penalty".

What percentage of your investments are in IRAs and 401ks - because they have a different tax structure. This would only be applied to investments made in a regular brokerage account, but only the earnings, no the original principle. Do you feel like you shouldn't pay taxes on a bonus from work?

I never said I don't think I should pay any taxes. I just don't think middle-income folks should pay a higher percentage than lower and higher income do.

I know how IRAs, 401ks and other investments are taxed.

[andi9899]

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

I'm not sure what kind of company he runs, but I'm sure there is a large gap between minimum wage and $70K. I don't think fast food will ever pay that high of a salary, but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of improvement that could be made to people's salaries. I don't know how someone could make it today on what those kinds of places pay. McDonald's has more than enough money to pay the $15 minimum wage that has been tossed around.

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

If everyone did, more people would be willing and able to enter and stay in the workforce. My understanding is, back in the good ol days of yore, even the basic jobs paid enough to support a family. Now sometimes even two jobs isn't enough. While the C-suite makes out like bandits.

[nidena]

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

$70k/year for a few hundred employees is a lot different than Wally World paying their employees $70k/yr as a minimum.  Wally World employs more than 2M people.  But let's just get them started with, say, $40k/yr for full-time employees and the hourly equivalent for part-time.  I mean, with a Net Income of more than $13B, I'm sure they can absorb the cost, especially considering their NI increased more than 100% last year.

[jerseygirl]

Dec 2, 2021 15:36:06 GMT -5 CCL said:

Dec 2, 2021 13:46:52 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I don't understand why you believe paying taxes on money you acquired due to investment growth is a "penalty".

What percentage of your investments are in IRAs and 401ks - because they have a different tax structure. This would only be applied to investments made in a regular brokerage account, but only the earnings, no the original principle. Do you feel like you shouldn't pay taxes on a bonus from work?

I never said I don't think I should pay any taxes. I just don't think middle-income folks should pay a higher percentage than lower and higher income do.

I know how IRAs, 401ks and other investments are taxed.

So would you be in favor of a flat tax?

[minnesotapaintlady]

Dec 2, 2021 15:38:08 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

If everyone did, more people would be willing and able to enter and stay in the workforce. My understanding is, back in the good ol days of yore, even the basic jobs paid enough to support a family. Now sometimes even two jobs isn't enough. While the C-suite makes out like bandits.

We can't pick and choose what we want from the "good old days".  It's a completely different time.  In 1950 only 1 in 3 women worked.  There was no fast food or big box retailer on every corner. 

[Lizard Queen]

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I know we covered him, but I like this post. It pretty much sums it up:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

This guy has a lot to say about this stuff:

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dec 2, 2021 15:37:55 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:21:44 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

But how would it work if every company started paying a minimum of 70K/year and great benefits?  How much would a burger cost at McDonalds?  How much would groceries cost?  Even if we're all down to pay more so that everyone has these benefits wouldn't that make the 70K worth much less? 

Not to say I haven't suggested many times that MY company doesn't just jack up their wages and put all the other places under.

I'm not sure what kind of company he runs, but I'm sure there is a large gap between minimum wage and $70K. I don't think fast food will ever pay that high of a salary, but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of improvement that could be made to people's salaries. I don't know how someone could make it today on what those kinds of places pay. McDonald's has more than enough money to pay the $15 minimum wage that has been tossed around.

McD's is already advertising $15/hr here for new hires.  I don't see $20 hamburgers on their menu.  

Plus there are all the hiring bonuses.  Which begs the question of if they can afford to pay that NOW and give out thousand+ bonuses NOW where the heck were they hiding that money before?  All I have ever heard is $15/hr would topple grocery stores, fast food, retail and the whole economy would collapse within itself.   Yet we're not in the apocalypse. 

Oh and the other refrain I often here is "Well then companies will just refuse to hire anyone".   Yet wages are being raised because they are desperate to ATTRACT workers the exact opposite of what these boards said would happen if wages are raised.  

I will admit I have a very poor and basic understanding of how all the part of our economy go together.   Yet even I am starting to wake up to the fact corporations have fed us a lot of shit about NEEDING a $7.25 minimum wage and no higher or else they will take their ball and go home.   A pandemic came along and proved that to be a stupid idea.

[countrygirl2]

Wrong site.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Dec 2, 2021 16:06:01 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:37:55 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I'm not sure what kind of company he runs, but I'm sure there is a large gap between minimum wage and $70K. I don't think fast food will ever pay that high of a salary, but that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of improvement that could be made to people's salaries. I don't know how someone could make it today on what those kinds of places pay. McDonald's has more than enough money to pay the $15 minimum wage that has been tossed around.

McD's is already advertising $15/hr here for new hires.  I don't see $20 hamburgers on their menu.  

Plus there are all the hiring bonuses.  Which begs the question of if they can afford to pay that NOW and give out thousand+ bonuses NOW where the heck were they hiding that money before?  All I have ever heard is $15/hr would topple grocery stores, fast food, retail and the whole economy would collapse within itself.   Yet we're not in the apocalypse. 

Oh and the other refrain I often here is "Well then companies will just refuse to hire anyone".   Yet wages are being raised because they are desperate to ATTRACT workers the exact opposite of what these boards said would happen if wages are raised.  

I will admit I have a very poor and basic understanding of how all the part of our economy go together.   Yet even I am starting to wake up to the fact corporations have fed us a lot of shit about NEEDING a $7.25 minimum wage and no higher or else they will take their ball and go home.   A pandemic came along and proved that to be a stupid idea.

They pay that here too (if the employee is over 18), but nobody gets more than 20-30 hours a week despite being seriously understaffed.  The small McDonalds in our dowtown closed the lobby permanently and did away with the people at the drive up window.  The building is just a food prep area now and you use the touchscreen at the drive up to place your order and pay for it at the same board.  They said they cut their staffing needs by more than half going that route.

[nidena]

Truth be told, the retail companies might just be easy targets.

I decided to do a search for "most profit per employee" and Fannie Mae was top of the list: tipalti.com/profit-per-employee/  I then searched what their lowest paid position was.  According to glassdoor: "The lowest-paying job at Fannie Mae is a Customer Support Specialist with a salary of $62,108 per year."  They have 7,500 employees.

So, it's not that difficult to imagine other companies paying the employees a decent minimum salary.

From what I've seen, most retail employees shop where they work and if they're paid more, they'll spend more.

[jerseygirl]

Dec 2, 2021 16:25:06 GMT -5 nidena said:

Truth be told, the retail companies might just be easy targets.

I decided to do a search for "most profit per employee" and Fannie Mae was top of the list: tipalti.com/profit-per-employee/  I then searched what their lowest paid position was.  According to glassdoor: "The lowest-paying job at Fannie Mae is a Customer Support Specialist with a salary of $62,108 per year."  They have 7,500 employees.

So, it's not that difficult to imagine other companies paying the employees a decent minimum salary.

From what I've seen, most retail employees shop where they work and if they're paid more, they'll spend more.

Like Henry Ford, he paid employees enough to buy a Ford car

[apple 2]

Wal-Mart took away the cashiers and replaced them with self service. Did they reduce price in the store?

I am appalled at how low your minimum wage is in the USA. 

[nidena]

Dec 2, 2021 16:30:51 GMT -5 apple 2 said:

Wal-Mart took away the cashiers and replaced them with self service. Did they reduce price in the store?

I am appalled at how low your minimum wage is in the USA. 

Self-service doesn't actually save the company any money because they're still paying the low-wage person but just putting them elsewhere in the store.  A four-set of self-checkout machines costs around $125,000.

HOWEVER, they do MAKE more money by installing these because now the pace is set by each customer and not the cashier and those machines likely pay for themselves within a year.

And, no, prices are never lowered except for random, temporary promos.

[andi9899]

Dec 2, 2021 15:53:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 2, 2021 15:38:08 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

If everyone did, more people would be willing and able to enter and stay in the workforce. My understanding is, back in the good ol days of yore, even the basic jobs paid enough to support a family. Now sometimes even two jobs isn't enough. While the C-suite makes out like bandits.

We can't pick and choose what we want from the "good old days".  It's a completely different time.  In 1950 only 1 in 3 women worked.  There was no fast food or big box retailer on every corner. 

People should still be able to feed their families without working 2 or 3 jobs.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dec 2, 2021 16:36:45 GMT -5 nidena said:

Dec 2, 2021 16:30:51 GMT -5 apple 2 said:

Wal-Mart took away the cashiers and replaced them with self service. Did they reduce price in the store?

I am appalled at how low your minimum wage is in the USA. 

Self-service doesn't actually save the company any money because they're still paying the low-wage person but just putting them elsewhere in the store.  A four-set of self-checkout machines costs around $125,000.

HOWEVER, they do MAKE more money by installing these because now the pace is set by each customer and not the cashier and those machines likely pay for themselves within a year.

And, no, prices are never lowered except for random, temporary promos.

My husband works for a company that makes those.  They DO need people and have come around to training on the job again because there just aren't enough people with experience.  So where one door closes another door opens.  Not everyone who works at McDs is too stupid/feeble/lazy to have another job, the opportunity just needed to present itself.

Data is showing a lot of those people who left retail left either for better jobs or got an education THEN got a better job because 2020 presented them with an opportunity. 

Warehouse work here is paying up to $20/hr and you just need to pass a drug test. .

I was reading an article about someone who was a bartender.  They said it wasn't until the bar closed and they had to find another job to pay the bills they opened up to the idea of a different field.  Originally they planned to go back but eventually decided they wanted to stick with the non-customer facing office job.

Maybe if we didn't have men screaming swear words at the top of their lungs because they got the wrong McNugget sauce we'd have more people willing to come back (I watched that happen. He made the drive thru girl that couldn't have been older than 17 cry).  Maybe if we didn't have hostesses getting beat up or worse shot over mask mandates people would come back.

If you aren't going to be a decent human being don't expect people to flock to jobs serving you. 

And what did employers expect?  Bills didn't cease to be due while the bar was closed.  They weren't waiting with baited breath for the day you called to say you were open again.  People had to move on with their lives.