Do People Just Not Want To Work Anymore?

[billisonboard]

Moreover, the employment numbers for August and September were higher than the Labor Department first reported. The routine monthly revisions tacked on a combined 235,000 jobs ... link

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Do People Just Not Want To Work Anymore?

no I really don't.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2021 13:22:56 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Do People Just Not Want To Work Anymore?

no I really don't.

Neither do I. But I have some years to go.

[nidena]

Nov 25, 2021 14:17:03 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Nov 25, 2021 13:22:56 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

no I really don't.

Neither do I. But I have some years to go.

And miles to go before I sleep...

[susana1954]

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

[nidena]

The amazon strike tomorrow will be interesting.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

If companies can’t find workers for what they are paying, then the workers CB pearly have enough skills to deserve higher pay. Isn’t that economics 101. Notwithstanding your belief on what those jobs are worth

[nidena]

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

It takes a tremendous amount of skill and patience to not tell most customers to go fuck themselves when they get stupid-entitled.

Also, most retail jobs that I've encountered were filled either by college students or older workers trying to makes some extra money.

BTW, I've worked retail.  I also fixed planes in the USAF during the same years.  Don't make those general assumptions about retail workers.

[susana1954]

Nov 25, 2021 17:35:41 GMT -5 nidena said:

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

It takes a tremendous amount of skill and patience to not tell most customers to go fuck themselves when they get stupid-entitled.

Also, most retail jobs that I've encountered were filled either by college students or older workers trying to makes some extra money.

BTW, I've worked retail.  I also fixed planes in the USAF during the same years.  Don't make those general assumptions about retail workers.

I worked retail (two major department stores) as a second job for almost 5 years after my divorce.  I know exactly the skills that these jobs require and the type of people filling them.   The article appeared to be talking about full-time employees, however.  But maybe not.

Certainly many retail employees are smart.  They know how to deal with people as you said.  But what that generally qualifies them for is another sales job.  It doesn't magically give them the technology skills, education, and/or experience required for most higher paying other jobs. Most people that I know who left went to other retailers or other sales jobs.  

In other words, I wasn't making "general assumptions."  I was thinking about specific people I worked with and wondering how they planned to support themselves if they participated in the "Great Resignation" as it is being called.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

I guess we don't know what their other resources may be. I'm assuming there are not a lot of people that would quit a reaonably tolerable job if they were going to go hungry the next week and homeless in a month.

Maybe they already get some welfare because of the low pay?

[stillmovingforward]

Welfare isn't that great.
They most likely go with 'I can stick it to the man' by quitting, feel a bit of control over their life, then go get a new job down the road a few days later. They don't care about the job because the workplace doesn't care about them. They can quit and get hired easily right now. So it's more like they are exchanging jobs than quitting work.

[TheOtherMe]

Local unemployment rate is less than 3%.  Pretty much means if an employee doesn't like how they are being paid or treated, they will have a new job as soon as they want one.  

My snow plow guy told me all of his competitors are paying time and a half to get people to do that job so he had to do the same thing

[dippyegg]

I really don't want to work anymore! I have been working since 1986.   I am kind of done.

[bean29]

Nov 26, 2021 12:03:53 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

I guess we don't know what their other resources may be. I'm assuming there are not a lot of people that would quit a reaonably tolerable job if they were going to go hungry the next week and homeless in a month.

Maybe they already get some welfare because of the low pay?

Why assume they are not going to other employers paying better wages/benefits? My nephew says warehouse workers are earning more than new teachers in our area.

[formerroomate99]

Nov 25, 2021 15:04:00 GMT -5 susana1954 said:

I was reading an article that said many retail workers are planning to quit right before the holidays.  The poor staffing/scheduling and "low" pay ($14 an hour) were cited as why.

I understand low salaries as a disincentive to work.   But most of these employees don't have the skills to get higher paying jobs.  If you quit, you don't get unemployment, at least in Alabama.

How are they going to support themselves?

Around here, a lot of retail workers were married women with kids and students, most of them didn’t need these jobs to keep a roof over their heads. If people from those groups decided that they could forgo the extra cash to protect them selves and their families from risk, I don’t see that as a huge tragedy. And if the lower number of workers means the ones who actually need the jobs can command higher wages, I don’t see that as a bad thing.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 26, 2021 20:01:32 GMT -5 dippyegg said:

I really don't want to work anymore! I have been working since 1986.   I am kind of done.

Same. Started in 86 and am D.O.N.E.

Dug into my 401K plan docs this morning and confirmed I can actually start drawing on it at 55.  Good to know.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 28, 2021 19:47:38 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Nov 26, 2021 12:03:53 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I guess we don't know what their other resources may be. I'm assuming there are not a lot of people that would quit a reaonably tolerable job if they were going to go hungry the next week and homeless in a month.

Maybe they already get some welfare because of the low pay?

Why assume they are not going to other employers paying better wages/benefits? My nephew says warehouse workers are earning more than new teachers in our area.

That was kind of what I was alluding to under "other resources" as well as working partners, saving/investment/rental RE moneys, day jobs, generous parents or inheritances, etc. We just don't know.


And then I went on to adressing Susanas point about not getting unemployment if you quit - so last comment was just a focus on those becoming unemployed by leaving who don't have the other resources.


Could have been clearer I suppose.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 29, 2021 14:52:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 26, 2021 20:01:32 GMT -5 dippyegg said:

I really don't want to work anymore! I have been working since 1986.   I am kind of done.

Same. Started in 86 and am D.O.N.E.

Dug into my 401K plan docs this morning and confirmed I can actually start drawing on it at 55.  Good to know.

I've been working since 82 .

earlier even if you count my school jobs at 14 or so.

[nidena]

If you count fingerpainting, I've been working since 1982, too.  But I do really think it's how much you love what you do that helps keep you in a job.

I hated my job in the Air Force.  I worked because I bought a house my third year in.  Then I just counted down until 20 years when I retired.  Now, I work in a job that helps rich people stay rich and, truth be told, I don't love it.  I hate the volume of paperwork that is required to process a transaction.  I hate seeing how many hoops people will jump through to avoid paying taxes on money that was made in investments (and not really earned...it just "grew" and they think they earned it).  And I hate that I've become dependent on the extra income that it brings in that I choose not to leave.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2021 8:09:36 GMT -5 nidena said:

Now, I work in a job that helps rich people stay rich and, truth be told, I don't love it.  I hate the volume of paperwork that is required to process a transaction.  I hate seeing how many hoops people will jump through to avoid paying taxes on money that was made in investments (and not really earned...it just "grew" and they think they earned it).  And I hate that I've become dependent on the extra income that it brings in that I choose not to leave.

As one of the people you would probably dislike working with (although there are few hoops for me to jump through to avoid taxes), please consider the positive aspects of what you're doing.

These people will not be expecting Medicaid (i.e. the taxpayers) to foot the bill for their long-term care.  They will not be asking for subsidized housing or breaks on their property taxes.  Their kids (and grandkids) will not need "free" college (and it's not really free- someone else pays the bills) or forgiven student loans.  They'll be getting disproportionately less back in SS than they and their employers paid in and 85% of what they get will be taxed- to shore up the system for everyone else.  They'll pay extra premiums for Medicare (and likely paid more into it during their working years) even though they get the same level of care as everyone in the system.  They can afford to buy American-made goods and donate generously to charities.

They (and their children and grandchildren) will get the bills to pay for all the money spent to prop up the economy after COVID.  And they didn't get stimulus checks.

By the way, part of that income you call "unearned" is just gains in the value of securities that keep pace with inflation.  If you've held your investment for 10 years and it's appreciated at 4%/year but inflation has been running 3%/year, guess what- you owe taxes on the full gain anyway.

Sorry for the tangent but we're not all Scrooge McDucks.

[CCL]

Dec 1, 2021 9:35:43 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Dec 1, 2021 8:09:36 GMT -5 nidena said:

Now, I work in a job that helps rich people stay rich and, truth be told, I don't love it.  I hate the volume of paperwork that is required to process a transaction.  I hate seeing how many hoops people will jump through to avoid paying taxes on money that was made in investments (and not really earned...it just "grew" and they think they earned it).  And I hate that I've become dependent on the extra income that it brings in that I choose not to leave.

As one of the people you would probably dislike working with (although there are few hoops for me to jump through to avoid taxes), please consider the positive aspects of what you're doing.

These people will not be expecting Medicaid (i.e. the taxpayers) to foot the bill for their long-term care.  They will not be asking for subsidized housing or breaks on their property taxes.  Their kids (and grandkids) will not need "free" college (and it's not really free- someone else pays the bills) or forgiven student loans.  They'll be getting disproportionately less back in SS than they and their employers paid in and 85% of what they get will be taxed- to shore up the system for everyone else.  They'll pay extra premiums for Medicare (and likely paid more into it during their working years) even though they get the same level of care as everyone in the system.  They can afford to buy American-made goods and donate generously to charities.

They (and their children and grandchildren) will get the bills to pay for all the money spent to prop up the economy after COVID.  And they didn't get stimulus checks.

By the way, part of that income you call "unearned" is just gains in the value of securities that keep pace with inflation.  If you've held your investment for 10 years and it's appreciated at 4%/year but inflation has been running 3%/year, guess what- you owe taxes on the full gain anyway.

Sorry for the tangent but we're not all Scrooge McDucks.

That comment caught my attention, too. It took me 40 years to accumulate what I have. I've "earned" every penny of it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I get the impression she's talking about a level of wealth that even YM isn't a part of.  Like Bezos sending himself into space level rich.

I mean yeah we can say all day long Bezos earned it but the more I hear about how Amazon treats it workers you have to admit that was very much a "let them eat cake" type moment.

[TheOtherMe]

I once worked for a wealth advisor (his office also prepared tax returns and that is where I worked).  I found a lot of "those" people to be quite overbearing and mostly didn't like dealing with them.  I only dealt with the few who had payroll, etc. and on the tax side.

I did truly like one man.  He worked for Amazon and was one of the kindest most benevolent people I have ever met.

He believed in tithing and tithed on his multi million dollar salary, including the bonus.  When I was preparing the tax return, he was at some remote Bible camp in the woods of the Pacific Northwest.  He not only gave money, he gave his time.  He believed in what he was doing.

Many of the people who were much wealthier than him made less in charitable contributions than I did.  I said something about it at one of our Friday lunch and learns and the boss said that is how they stayed wealthy.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2021 19:08:56 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I once worked for a wealth advisor (his office also prepared tax returns and that is where I worked).  I found a lot of "those" people to be quite overbearing and mostly didn't like dealing with them.  I only dealt with the few who had payroll, etc. and on the tax side.

I did truly like one man.  He worked for Amazon and was one of the kindest most benevolent people I have ever met.

He believed in tithing and tithed on his multi million dollar salary, including the bonus.  When I was preparing the tax return, he was at some remote Bible camp in the woods of the Pacific Northwest.  He not only gave money, he gave his time.  He believed in what he was doing.

Many of the people who were much wealthier than him made less in charitable contributions than I did.  I said something about it at one of our Friday lunch and learns and the boss said that is how they stayed wealthy.

I believe the saying that “To him who much is given, much is expected”. I don’t believe I was “given” much of anything, I believe that everything I have, I worked for and earned. BUT I still believe that I am blessed, having so much more than some other people. And I do not mind sharing some of what I have with people in need, even though what I have is not much in comparison to so many others.

When my income and lack of dependants became such that I owed federal taxes, just like anybody else, I wasn’t happy about my money going into the federal government’s stash, but I preferred to think that at least some of it was going to individuals and families less fortunate than me, and I was ok with that.

I donate to charities anonymously and I give money to people that I believe really need it, even if I don’t personally know them. Several years ago, a coworker and I put our money together to give to another coworker whose home had burned down right before school started, she lost everything. We gave her several hundreds of dollars to help replace her childrens’ school clothes. We didn’t ask other coworkers to pitch in, we never even told anybody we were doing/did it, we just put our money together and called her and asked her to come to the job to meet us. And she did, no questions asked. Years later, we’ve still not told anyone IRL that we did that.

Earlier this year, a classmate from middle school had to take custody of her grandchildren and needed help providing for them because they came to her with nothing. She didn’t want to talk about all the circumstances and I understood and respected that. I sent her a FB message asking her to meet me, and I gave her some cash to help. When we met up, she told me some of what she’d been unwilling to say publicly, but the backstory didn’t matter to me, I just wanted to do a little to help. 

I have more stories I could share, but the point is that, that’s just who I am. I feel like even though I really dislike my job, I’m blessed to have the income I earn from it. And because I feel like I’m blessed, I’m willing to share some of my blessings with people in need.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2021 19:08:56 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Many of the people who were much wealthier than him made less in charitable contributions than I did.  I said something about it at one of our Friday lunch and learns and the boss said that is how they stayed wealthy.

That's a sleazy rationalization (and I know your boss said that, not you).  Yes, there are people who overdo giving to their own detriment and so-called clergy who encourage it, but if you're good enough at managing money to be rich, you can figure out how much to donate without going broke.

[TheOtherMe]

My boss was a total jerk.  

His idea of a season ending tax bonus was taking us out for lunch.  I guess that's how he kept his wealth.

[nidena]

I will be the first to admit that my viewpoint is very narrow in exposure, having worked in this industry only 15 months.  And I also do what I call flip-side regards of how I perceive many of these very well-off folx.  By that, I mean, that I imagine that there are people with less money than I who would regard what I have and what I do with my money the same way that I regard these quite well off folx.

However, it doesn't make me struggle to understand why there is a need to maintain a $20,000 MONTHLY budget.  In Indiana.  We're not talking Manhattan, here.

And, no, it's not all the clients.  But there's a handful who have mutlitple accounts, with multiple millions in them.  It blows my mind.  No, I don't know what their doing with their pocketbooks but it still blows my mind.

The other part of it is that I'm very aware of the fact that I'm doing a job that fulfills someone else's purpose on this earth and not my own; and that I'm doing it for only as long as I need to until I can focus on my own purpose.

[thyme4change]

Dec 1, 2021 10:38:37 GMT -5 CCL said:

Dec 1, 2021 9:35:43 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

As one of the people you would probably dislike working with (although there are few hoops for me to jump through to avoid taxes), please consider the positive aspects of what you're doing.

These people will not be expecting Medicaid (i.e. the taxpayers) to foot the bill for their long-term care.  They will not be asking for subsidized housing or breaks on their property taxes.  Their kids (and grandkids) will not need "free" college (and it's not really free- someone else pays the bills) or forgiven student loans.  They'll be getting disproportionately less back in SS than they and their employers paid in and 85% of what they get will be taxed- to shore up the system for everyone else.  They'll pay extra premiums for Medicare (and likely paid more into it during their working years) even though they get the same level of care as everyone in the system.  They can afford to buy American-made goods and donate generously to charities.

They (and their children and grandchildren) will get the bills to pay for all the money spent to prop up the economy after COVID.  And they didn't get stimulus checks.

By the way, part of that income you call "unearned" is just gains in the value of securities that keep pace with inflation.  If you've held your investment for 10 years and it's appreciated at 4%/year but inflation has been running 3%/year, guess what- you owe taxes on the full gain anyway.

Sorry for the tangent but we're not all Scrooge McDucks.

That comment caught my attention, too. It took me 40 years to accumulate what I have. I've "earned" every penny of it.

I have also spent 40 (or 30) years accumulating wealth. I dont understand why I am taxed more on dollars earned from getting and education, getting out of bed, going to a place I don't always want to be, getting a bunch of grief from people I don't like, getting physical and mental pain, and not feeling like I have a lot of choices versus the money I earned by giving up a few niceties and setting money aside and forgetting it existed for a couple decades. It seems like they could be taxed the same at least - just to even the score.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2021 21:22:35 GMT -5 nidena said:

I will be the first to admit that my viewpoint is very narrow in exposure, having worked in this industry only 15 months.  And I also do what I call flip-side regards of how I perceive many of these very well-off folx.  By that, I mean, that I imagine that there are people with less money than I who would regard what I have and what I do with my money the same way that I regard these quite well off folx.

However, it doesn't make me struggle to understand why there is a need to maintain a $20,000 MONTHLY budget.  In Indiana.  

I always joked that I define "excess" as anyone who spends more than I do in various categories!   I'm nowhere near $20K/month (and I'm also in a LCOL area).  A giant mortgage could certainly contribute to that but then who needs that much house (and all the attendant costs for utilities and upkeep)?

My concern about taxing away the "excess wealth" of the ultra-rich is that for everyone who spends it on hookers and blow and sending people into space, there are the Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey and Bill Gates types who try to do good.  Frankly, I trust them to do a better job of it since it's their own money rather than letting the US gubmint parcel it out.  In my own case, what I give to charity is a direct function of my AFTER-tax income.  You make me pay more taxes, I have less left to give away.

And, like Thyme and CCL, I don't like it when "millionaire" is used as a pejorative and an excuse to tax, tax, tax.  Yes, it takes some advantages (in my case, being born with marketable skills, good health, a family that valued education, good role models) but it also takes delayed gratification, discipline and good decisions.  Plenty of people with those advantages have blown it all.  And now they want tax money from me to prop them up.

[billisonboard]

Dec 2, 2021 8:49:56 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 1, 2021 10:38:37 GMT -5 CCL said:

That comment caught my attention, too. It took me 40 years to accumulate what I have. I've "earned" every penny of it.

I have also spent 40 (or 30) years accumulating wealth. I dont understand why I am taxed more on dollars earned from getting and education, getting out of bed, going to a place I don't always want to be, getting a bunch of grief from people I don't like, getting physical and mental pain, and not feeling like I have a lot of choices versus the money I earned by giving up a few niceties and setting money aside and forgetting it existed for a couple decades. It seems like they could be taxed the same at least - just to even the score.

It benefits society in general to have that saved capital for others to use so we, through our government, provide an incentive for you to do it with a lower tax rate.

It is early, I am not really awake, I don't know if what I said above is a good rationale. But I am tossing it out there.