Food Stamp restrictions

[Firebird]

Good post, thyme4change.

Does anyone remember the part in Supersize Me when Morgan went to that school for mentally disturbed kids with the experimental diet who were doing so much better now that they weren't eating crap? That made so much sense to me. If you give a kid a couple of candy bars at 2:00 in the afternoon, guaranteed they're going to cranky and possibly not hungry for dinner later.

I used to help run a day camp program and although it didn't register at the time, when I look back I specifically remember having more trouble with the kids on days when we would have little contests in the morning, with candy as prizes.

It seems very clear that in many ways, you are what you eat - especially kids.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

I don't know if more classes would help. I have several relatives who are dieticians and they worked with people on WIC/food stamps. They would hold classes to teach people healthy recipes and they said that very few people came (Usually, the ones who did were the ones that were mandated by their social worker). The ones that did show up usually had a very bad attitude and were resentful that they had to "waste their time on this". The dieticians were very discouraged... they had gone to school to help people get healthy and eat right and were being treated like trash by their "clients". I don't know that putting more $$ in for education would be worth the return on investment.

I will say that putting limits on what kind of food EBTs will buy is a good idea, in my opinion. I think a lot of the stores in the lower socioeconomic areas will start carrying that kind of food once they realize that is what their patronage can buy. The market forces will work and those that are selling only junk food will get lesser while those that sell healthy stuff will thrive.

[thyme4change]

Even if people sold their food stamps to buy junk food, I guess someone would be getting real ingredients.

[kgb18]

It's sad to realize that some people don't bother to learn how to prepare real food... I don't know if it's the lack of time if they work 2 jobs, or just pure complacency. If people don't know how to prepare real food for themselves, and don't bother to learn, the government subsidizing them continuing to buy crap food they don't need to prepare goes against the whole "teach a man to fish" thing and all... Kind of sad. Maybe food pantries could do basic cooking and food prep classes for people if that's the case.

A lot of the problem is that we all know what we grew up with. If people don't grow up in homes with an adult preparing healthy meals, they don't have that concept ingrained in them. It's a cycle. If you grow up eating junk food, then that's what you'll continue to eat and to feed your kids.

I've always thought that people getting food stamps should have to take some kind of a class about healthy eating/cooking where they would be taught some simple recipes. Education is the only way to break the cycle.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 17:06:57 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

It's sad to realize that some people don't bother to learn how to prepare real food... I don't know if it's the lack of time if they work 2 jobs, or just pure complacency. If people don't know how to prepare real food for themselves, and don't bother to learn, the government subsidizing them continuing to buy crap food they don't need to prepare goes against the whole "teach a man to fish" thing and all... Kind of sad. Maybe food pantries could do basic cooking and food prep classes for people if that's the case.

A lot of the problem is that we all know what we grew up with. If people don't grow up in homes with an adult preparing healthy meals, they don't have that concept ingrained in them. It's a cycle. If you grow up eating junk food, then that's what you'll continue to eat and to feed your kids.

I've always thought that people getting food stamps should have to take some kind of a class about healthy eating/cooking where they would be taught some simple recipes. Education is the only way to break the cycle.

But if people don't want to learn, they won't. By taking away the junk food it may force people to learn.

[Firebird]

But if people don't want to learn, they won't. By taking away the junk food it may force people to learn.

Bingo. Keep people in the same circumstances as always, and they have no reason to alter their behavior. Basic law of human nature.

[thyme4change]

Maybe doing both the education and the policy change at the same time will increase the chances of success.

But, I'm sure I'm ignorant and idealistic on this subject.

[kgb18]

I think both is necessary. I guess I'm idealistic too because I think it's a crummy attitude to say that people don't want to learn and just leave it at that. Yes, I realize a lot of people won't want to learn, but some will learn. So I think it's an important part of the process.

The policy change is important too, but you can't give people products if they don't know what to do with them. Someone could hand me a pile of wood and tools, but I wouldn't have a clue how to build anything with it. Likewise, if you hand someone who has never cooked ingredients, they're going to be clueless as to what to do with it.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 17:35:47 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

I think both is necessary. I guess I'm idealistic too because I think it's a crummy attitude to say that people don't want to learn and just leave it at that. Yes, I realize a lot of people won't want to learn, but some will learn. So I think it's an important part of the process.

The policy change is important too, but you can't give people products if they don't know what to do with them. Someone could hand me a pile of wood and tools, but I wouldn't have a clue how to build anything with it. Likewise, if you hand someone who has never cooked ingredients, they're going to be clueless as to what to do with it.

I did not know how to cook and I learned using google, cook books and asking other people's parents (that cooked). But honestly the first two helped more than the last.

[kgb18]

Just curious gin, did you grow up in house where meals were cooked at home?

[Sum Dum Gai]

Yes, I realize a lot of people won't want to learn, but some will learn. So I think it's an important part of the process.

I don't completely disagree, but there's a cost benefit analysis too. The policy change should in theory help every single food stamp recipient with a horrible diet eat a little better. The classes would only help whatever percentage actually took them and applied the knowledge. If that percentage is tiny, and the cost to do the classes is high, then you have to ask if it's worth spending our tax money on.

[Firebird]

Perhaps that money would be better spent on building in discounts for certain healthy foods being purchased with EBT so EBT recipients will have a stronger incentive to buy them? Just thinking out loud.

[thyme4change]

Why don't we just take their kids and put them in a camp where we can teach them everything they need to know? We only need to keep them there 15 or 20 years.

That would stop the chain of abuse, poverty, crime, obesity, welfare - all of it!

[thyme4change]

Do any jurisdictions actually use "stamps" anymore?

[Firebird]

Apr 13, 2011 17:54:53 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Why don't we just take their kids and put them in a camp where we can teach them everything they need to know? We only need to keep them there 15 or 20 years.

That would stop the chain of abuse, poverty, crime, obesity, welfare - all of it!

If only ;D

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

It's hard to stock a lot of fresh stuff in urban areas

No, it's not. When I lived in Boston, every single weekend I went downtown (via T) with a large backpack and bought tons of fresh produce at the farmer's market.

IME, most downtown cities have this - at least during the summer.

I was in Boston, without a car for 4 years and still managed to eat reasonably healthy. It's not hard to grocery shop and get on the bus (I had a wheeled cart to carry groceries home), I did it myself. Sometimes, I even used a cab to get home. I worked a 60+ hour week, for less than minimum wage (I was salaried) and more than one night, came home utterly exhausted. However, I do not ever remember buying large quantities of junk food. I do remember once buying a 6 pack of soda and realized that that was too much of a hassle to get home along with the rest of groceries, so not buying it again.

[kgb18]

mich, I'll ask the same question of you that I asked of gin, what was your environment growing up in terms of food and food preparation? Was there an adult who cooked in your house?

[Firebird]

People already want food stamps recipients to survive by licking the glue off stamps, so don't hold your breath.

I think that's a bit harsh. No one I know actually wants anyone to starve. What we're frustrated with is the amount of abuse going on, and the lack of judgment being employed by those who aren't abusing the system.

The food stamp recipients I've known (and I've only known a few, so here's the saltshaker) have come in two categories: 1) "We don't REALLY need this money but we qualify so what the hell, let's save on groceries," and 2) "EBT doesn't give me enough to buy exactly the kind of food I want and NEED to feed my family in a healthy way so screw it, I'm buying potato chips and pop, maybe some Lunchables for the kids."

The first one flat-out pisses me off, entitlement mentality at it's finest. If you don't need the money, then don't f'ing take it.

The second one is valid in some ways, and really needs to be addressed. However, I feel like a lot of poor people don't even try to eat healthy when they're poor. [Insert a lot of caveats here based on my arguments earlier about WHY they don't even try, as well as an admission that I wasn't even trying back when I was poor, so I'm not poor-bashing here.] Without taking a close look at the situation, that can be a frustrating attitude. It comes across like... here you are getting this free money and you're not even using it to improve your situation. Plus you're making excuses.

It's complicated. But my objections to food stamps are not remotely based in any form of the opinion that people deserve to starve because they're poor.

[thyme4change]

I think "stock" refers to the stores getting truckloads of fresh foods in, which have special requirements - fridges and freezers (yes, I know they keep beer in fridges, too - but if the beer gets warm, so what? If the meat gets warm, you have to toss it, which is a loss to the store.) Spoilage and waste is a huge profit sucker for fresh items. If you are in an area that has a high population of people who are not use to fresh foods your sales might be so low on those items that it is a total loss.

As a financial analyst - I see the risky in the proposition of bringing in those types of items.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 17:45:42 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

Just curious gin, did you grow up in house where meals were cooked at home?

OH, hell no. I ate out about 3 nights a week at my mom's work (she would have evening meeting). By 3rd grade I was packing my own lunch and "making" my own breakfast (cereal or toast). By about 6th grade I knew how to boil water (and my mom trusted me not burn down the house) and I made pasta/mac & cheese for dinner or put in a frozen meal even younger. I ate horribly as a kid. Not all of that was my mom's fault, I was a picky kid. However, until I moved out I was underweight and very unhealthy.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 18:05:17 GMT -5 Firebird said:

People already want food stamps recipients to survive by licking the glue off stamps, so don't hold your breath.

I think that's a bit harsh. No one I know actually wants anyone to starve. What we're frustrated with is the amount of abuse going on, and the lack of judgment being employed by those who aren't abusing the system.

The food stamp recipients I've known (and I've only known a few, so here's the saltshaker) have come in two categories: 1) "We don't REALLY need this money but we qualify so what the hell, let's save on groceries," and 2) "EBT doesn't give me enough to buy exactly the kind of food I want and NEED to feed my family in a healthy way so screw it, I'm buying potato chips and pop, maybe some Lunchables for the kids."

The first one flat-out pisses me off, entitlement mentality at it's finest. If you don't need the money, then don't f'ing take it.

The second one is valid in some ways, and really needs to be addressed. However, I feel like a lot of poor people don't even try to eat healthy when they're poor. [Insert a lot of caveats here based on my arguments earlier about WHY they don't even try, as well as an admission that I wasn't even trying back when I was poor, so I'm not poor-bashing here.] Without taking a close look at the situation, that can be a frustrating attitude. It comes across like... here you are getting this free money and you're not even using it to improve your situation. Plus you're making excuses.

It's complicated. But my objections to food stamps are not remotely based in any form of the opinion that people deserve to starve because they're poor.

#1 does not bother me too much, maybe they will save for retirement instead of paying for the groceries and we won't have to support them in old age?

[Firebird]

Apr 13, 2011 18:02:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

It's hard to stock a lot of fresh stuff in urban areas

No, it's not. When I lived in Boston, every single weekend I went downtown (via T) with a large backpack and bought tons of fresh produce at the farmer's market.

IME, most downtown cities have this - at least during the summer.

I was in Boston, without a car for 4 years and still managed to eat reasonably healthy. It's not hard to grocery shop and get on the bus (I had a wheeled cart to carry groceries home), I did it myself. Sometimes, I even used a cab to get home. I worked a 60+ hour week, for less than minimum wage (I was salaried) and more than one night, came home utterly exhausted. However, I do not ever remember buying large quantities of junk food. I do remember once buying a 6 pack of soda and realized that that was too much of a hassle to get home along with the rest of groceries, so not buying it again.

Mich, I see you as a good example of how it CAN be done if you're motivated. I see me as an example of why it's not going to be done a lot of the time, which is (IME) more typical.

There was no farmer's market remotely near anywhere I lived or worked at any point during the time I lived in NYC except the last few weeks when I lived in the East Village (and the fruit and veggies you could buy there were insanely expensive).

And when I was working my ass off to keep three people housed and fed, there was no way in hell I would schlep all over New York looking for healthy food and deals. Keeping us alive was all I cared about at that point.

[kgb18]

OH, hell no.

Do you think that made you more motivated to cook and try to eat healthy when you got older?

[Sum Dum Gai]

As a financial analyst - I see the risky in the proposition of bringing in those types of items.

Sure, but even buying canned fruit would be a big improvement over pudding cups. It take no preparation. Has probably the same shelf life and similar price points. The difference is the canned fruit, provided it's not packed in corn syrup, has a lot more nutritional value. Nobody is expecting welfare moms to start making five course healthy meals from scratch, but replacing the worst of the junk food with healthier but still simple and convenient items would be a huge first step.

[Firebird]

#1 does not bother me too much, maybe they will save for retirement instead of paying for the groceries and we won't have to support them in old age?

I think not. Again, speaking only from my own experience here - but poor people do not tend to save windfalls, especially small ones (unless they're already in that "I've gotta get out of this situation" mentality, which many to most are not). They tend to spend them on fun things, because what's the point of saving if you're always going to be poor anyway?

That's one of the biggest problems of the "poor" mentality. It's not impossible to get out of poverty. But it is fucking hard work and it can take a really long time, and it's so much easier to just accept your situation and use any extra cash that comes your way to live a little.

I never once encountered a poor person who had gotten a windfall or break of some kind and decided to save the money in a retirement account. That kind of thing just doesn't occur to people who are barely scraping by. I'm not saying it's never happened, mind you, only that I've never seen it and I'm pretty sure it's the exception rather than the rule.

[973beachbum]

Sure, but even buying canned fruit would be a big improvement over pudding cups.

My kids get pudding cups in their lunches all the time.

Hey it is low fat and has plenty of vitamins and calcium in them. they are also way easier to pack in a lunch than a can of fruit.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 18:12:16 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

OH, hell no.

Do you think that made you more motivated to cook and try to eat healthy when you got older?

No, wanting to have a child, saving money and my (insanely) healthy roommate did. If I had all the money I could spend I'd eat out 99% of meals.

[Cookies Galore]

Apr 13, 2011 17:39:58 GMT -5 @gin1984 said:

Apr 13, 2011 17:35:47 GMT -5 kgb18 said:

I think both is necessary. I guess I'm idealistic too because I think it's a crummy attitude to say that people don't want to learn and just leave it at that. Yes, I realize a lot of people won't want to learn, but some will learn. So I think it's an important part of the process.

The policy change is important too, but you can't give people products if they don't know what to do with them. Someone could hand me a pile of wood and tools, but I wouldn't have a clue how to build anything with it. Likewise, if you hand someone who has never cooked ingredients, they're going to be clueless as to what to do with it.

I did not know how to cook and I learned using google, cook books and asking other people's parents (that cooked). But honestly the first two helped more than the last.

Same here. My mom is a TERRIBLE cook. She also worked double shifts as a waitress when we were growing up, so her short break to come home and feed usually meant going to McDonalds or Pizza Hut. When she did cook, it was pork chops coated in shake n' bake that were gray. I didn't know pork was actually white!

[Firebird]

Well, one of my friends on food stamps is living on a 12K income in NYC, so tell me, how much would you like her to save? In fact, if by some miracle you do save something, you will lose those stamps.

There's more to the story than that. There has to be. $12k isn't even minimum wage, especially in NYC - I think it's almost double that. And never mind food - unless she's living in a cardboard box, she can barely afford a Metro pass on that income.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but throwing out inflammatory statements like that contributes to the poor mentality.

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2011 18:19:18 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Well, one of my friends on food stamps is living on a 12K income in NYC, so tell me, how much would you like her to save? In fact, if by some miracle you do save something, you will lose those stamps.

Tough, we were not talking about those who need it to survice but those who could do without it. I thought if they got it (and did not need it) they could save some money. I would be fine with only using income (for those of working age) to determine eligibility of food stamps. It never made sense to me, tell the person who has a house (that monthly costs may be less than normal rent) that they must sell the house for food stamps. WIC does not require it, why does FS?