Public Funds to Private Schools?

[Deleted]

The "Schooling During a Pandemic" thread keeps getting posts on this subject and someone suggested a separate thread, so here it is, including my thoughts on some of the points posted by others.

1.  Providing public funds to private schools siphons money from the public school system. 

My understanding is that because of the Byzantine nature of school funding, most of the taxes supporting schools get funneled from the municipalities to the state, which then doles it back out based on number of students, with some re-distribution in favor of poorer districts and after raking off administrative costs.  This means that the loss of a student to a private school means a loss of state funding significant enough to make a dent in the public school operations.  I'd like to see this whole system broken apart so that property taxes supporting public schools stay completely in the area they're collected, other than a modest amount for state-level administration.  That way there's more to go around and loss of a student to the private school will make less of a dent in the public school finances.

2.  If you want your kid to go to a private school, go right ahead.  Write the a check.  Not the responsibility of the taxpayers.  

This is one which raises a question I never see answered.  The stance above means that if the public school isn't working for a kid and he/she isn't an athletic or academic superstar, they have no options unless their parents have $$$ or are willing to cut back significantly on other spending.  So... kids whose parents can't do it have no option but the public school system.  How many kids are we losing, who might blossom in the right academic environment?  Mine sure did and it cost me- he was lucky.

3.  The private schools are allowed to be picky.  Public schools have to accept everyone.

Welcome to the real world.  Even state universities can turn down applicants who don't make the grade.  There SHOULD be schools for kids who are well ahead of their peers academically.  More kids lost due to boredom and not being challenged, when they could be excited about what they're learning and accomplishing.  More kids in the system who don't want to learn, making it difficult for everyone else.

And there's a way to allocate more public funds to schools with more kids on IEPs, for whom English is not their native language, etc.  Kansas had a mind-boggling, complicated formula when I saw it years ago.  It also allocated more if a higher % got free lunches.  

I care about the public school system.  Honestly.  It educates the vast majority of our kids.  What I see, though, are giant bureaucracies, Taj Mahal schools, and kids who could thrive in a different environment having no other options.   I'm hoping that COVID will force us all to take a fresh look at things.

I'm out of the house all day- too many things landed on my calendar- but will reply when I'm available.  Carry on.

[seriousthistime]

You might want to fix the typo in the title. 

[NoNamePerson]

Oct 22, 2020 9:12:55 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

You might want to change the typo in the title. 

 Reminded me of time I typed letter when working for CPA! I typed pubic instead of Public Certified Accountant I wasn’t going to comment since I have done the same 

[billisonboard]

Oct 22, 2020 7:35:58 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

The "Schooling During a Pandemic" thread keeps getting posts on this subject and someone suggested a separate thread, so here it is, including my thoughts on some of the points posted by others.

1.  Providing public funds to private schools siphons money from the public school system. 

My understanding is that because of the Byzantine nature of school funding, most of the taxes supporting schools get funneled from the municipalities to the state, which then doles it back out based on number of students, with some re-distribution in favor of poorer districts and after raking off administrative costs.  This means that the loss of a student to a private school means a loss of state funding significant enough to make a dent in the public school operations.  I'd like to see this whole system broken apart so that property taxes supporting public schools stay completely in the area they're collected, other than a modest amount for state-level administration.  That way there's more to go around and loss of a student to the private school will make less of a dent in the public school finances.

2.  If you want your kid to go to a private school, go right ahead.  Write the a check.  Not the responsibility of the taxpayers.  

This is one which raises a question I never see answered.  The stance above means that if the public school isn't working for a kid and he/she isn't an athletic or academic superstar, they have no options unless their parents have $$$ or are willing to cut back significantly on other spending.  So... kids whose parents can't do it have no option but the public school system.  How many kids are we losing, who might blossom in the right academic environment?  Mine sure did and it cost me- he was lucky.

3.  The private schools are allowed to be picky.  Public schools have to accept everyone.

Welcome to the real world.  Even state universities can turn down applicants who don't make the grade.  There SHOULD be schools for kids who are well ahead of their peers academically.  More kids lost due to boredom and not being challenged, when they could be excited about what they're learning and accomplishing.  More kids in the system who don't want to learn, making it difficult for everyone else.

And there's a way to allocate more public funds to schools with more kids on IEPs, for whom English is not their native language, etc.  Kansas had a mind-boggling, complicated formula when I saw it years ago.  It also allocated more if a higher % got free lunches.  

I care about the public school system.  Honestly.  It educates the vast majority of our kids.  What I see, though, are giant bureaucracies, Taj Mahal schools, and kids who could thrive in a different environment having no other options.   I'm hoping that COVID will force us all to take a fresh look at things.

I'm out of the house all day- too many things landed on my calendar- but will reply when I'm available.  Carry on.

1. Property taxes are based on property values which are very unequal district to district. I think that a detailed dollars and cents analysis of how this plays out is important.

2. Public schools need to provide varied delivery systems to meet the needs of all students.

3. "More kids in the system who don't want to learn, making it difficult for everyone else." Yes, when private schools siphon off a select group, the percentage of problem students becomes much greater.

Your "1" eliminates the funding source for that allocation of funds you support in "3".

[giramomma]

I've got nothing other than wouldn't be nice if things were so simple to fix as you've stated. 

[seriousthistime]

Oct 22, 2020 9:16:16 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:12:55 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

You might want to change the typo in the title. 

 Reminded me of time I typed letter when working for CPA! I typed pubic instead of Public Certified Accountant I wasn’t going to comment since I have done the same 

As a poly sci major, I learned early on that spellcheck wasn’t enough. You have to do a Find search for pubic. In my work, I had a seasoned professional do a draft document and I suggested a few tweaks here and there. One was “fix the typo in the first sentence of paragraph 3, page 2.“ She came into my office, document in hand, and was adamant there was no typo. I asked to see the document, and circled the word. She was horrified.

[justme]

Oct 22, 2020 9:38:46 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I've got nothing other than wouldn't be nice if things were so simple to fix as you've stated. 

But what's suggested as a fix wouldn't fix anything!

Keeping taxes within the municipalities will result in the super rich having more awesome schools than they already do and the poor areas having horrible schools. It will exacerbate a problem that already exists!

I personally think that instead of distributing funds to districts/schools based on the number of students enrolled it should be based on the number of children that live there. School funding shouldn't be dependent upon what individual parents decide to do. Why do I say that? Because my taxes aren't dependent on whether or not I decide to be a parent! So if I'm paying for public schools because it's the thing to do than EVERYONE should be doing the same thing. So no tax payer money leaving because a parent made the decision to put the kid elsewhere. As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well they won't be needed. 

Maybe if we stopped underfunding schools and started funding all schools similarly our schools wouldn't have such problems. 

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 22, 2020 9:16:16 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:12:55 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

You might want to change the typo in the title. 

 Reminded me of time I typed letter when working for CPA! I typed pubic instead of Public Certified Accountant I wasn’t going to comment since I have done the same 

Same 🤐
(I'm still so embarrassed.)

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:38:46 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I've got nothing other than wouldn't be nice if things were so simple to fix as you've stated. 

But what's suggested as a fix wouldn't fix anything!

Keeping taxes within the municipalities will result in the super rich having more awesome schools than they already do and the poor areas having horrible schools. It will exacerbate a problem that already exists!

I personally think that instead of distributing funds to districts/schools based on the number of students enrolled it should be based on the number of children that live there. School funding shouldn't be dependent upon what individual parents decide to do. Why do I say that? Because my taxes aren't dependent on whether or not I decide to be a parent! So if I'm paying for public schools because it's the thing to do than EVERYONE should be doing the same thing. So no tax payer money leaving because a parent made the decision to put the kid elsewhere. As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well they won't be needed. 

Maybe if we stopped underfunding schools and started funding all schools similarly our schools wouldn't have such problems. 

In my state, sales taxes provide the per pupil funding that goes back to the schools, while property tax millages can only be used for things such as buildings and (I think) other fixed assets--things like that. This was voted in as proposal A some decades ago. While I think this is better, not all districts get the same amount per student from the state government, and that pissee me off. Districts in the Detroit (mostly richie rich) area get much more than my district on the West side, which gets the lowest level allotment. However, I think in general, this funding was a better option than the 💯 property tax funding mechanism that was used prior to the passage of proposal A.

[justme]

Oct 22, 2020 12:59:34 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

But what's suggested as a fix wouldn't fix anything!

Keeping taxes within the municipalities will result in the super rich having more awesome schools than they already do and the poor areas having horrible schools. It will exacerbate a problem that already exists!

I personally think that instead of distributing funds to districts/schools based on the number of students enrolled it should be based on the number of children that live there. School funding shouldn't be dependent upon what individual parents decide to do. Why do I say that? Because my taxes aren't dependent on whether or not I decide to be a parent! So if I'm paying for public schools because it's the thing to do than EVERYONE should be doing the same thing. So no tax payer money leaving because a parent made the decision to put the kid elsewhere. As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well they won't be needed. 

Maybe if we stopped underfunding schools and started funding all schools similarly our schools wouldn't have such problems. 

In my state, sales taxes provide the per pupil funding that goes back to the schools, while property tax millages can only be used for things such as buildings and (I think) other fixed assets--things like that. This was voted in as proposal A some decades ago. While I think this is better, not all districts get the same amount per student from the state government, and that pissee me off. Districts in the Detroit (mostly richie rich) area get much more than my district on the West side, which gets the lowest level allotment. However, I think in general, this funding was a better option than the 💯 property tax funding mechanism that was used prior to the passage of proposal A.

Yea that sounds better if it's fixed so it was equal to everyone. All kindergarteners are worth X state wide, etc.

Hmm are teachers paid using the per pupil money? Cuz I feel like the number of teachers should be determined by number of students but pay shouldn't if that makes sense? Like yea teachers in San Fran should make more than those in BFE, but otherwise the schools should get the same amount per student to cover books and all that other shit that isn't a human being.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 22, 2020 13:05:28 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 22, 2020 12:59:34 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

In my state, sales taxes provide the per pupil funding that goes back to the schools, while property tax millages can only be used for things such as buildings and (I think) other fixed assets--things like that. This was voted in as proposal A some decades ago. While I think this is better, not all districts get the same amount per student from the state government, and that pissee me off. Districts in the Detroit (mostly richie rich) area get much more than my district on the West side, which gets the lowest level allotment. However, I think in general, this funding was a better option than the 💯 property tax funding mechanism that was used prior to the passage of proposal A.

Yea that sounds better if it's fixed so it was equal to everyone. All kindergarteners are worth X state wide, etc.

Hmm are teachers paid using the per pupil money? Cuz I feel like the number of teachers should be determined by number of students but pay shouldn't if that makes sense? Like yea teachers in San Fran should make more than those in BFE, but otherwise the schools should get the same amount per student to cover books and all that other shit that isn't a human being.

The teachers are paid out of the funding from the state, but according to steps, not amount of students they teach. This is Michigan, so they are paid well, especially considering the cost of living.

[justme]

Oct 22, 2020 13:09:14 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Oct 22, 2020 13:05:28 GMT -5 justme said:

Yea that sounds better if it's fixed so it was equal to everyone. All kindergarteners are worth X state wide, etc.

Hmm are teachers paid using the per pupil money? Cuz I feel like the number of teachers should be determined by number of students but pay shouldn't if that makes sense? Like yea teachers in San Fran should make more than those in BFE, but otherwise the schools should get the same amount per student to cover books and all that other shit that isn't a human being.

The teachers are paid out of the funding from the state, but according to steps, not amount of students they teach. This is Michigan, so they are paid well, especially considering the cost of living.

So they've taken the largest spending that's determined by the cost of living (salaries and buildings) out of the per pupil spending, but don't keep the spending equal? Yeah, sounds strange. I mean, I know there's some exceptions but text books and computers are going to cost the same regardless of whether the kids is in a big city or small town. Definitely agree it seems messed up if the per pupil cost is unbalanced. 

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2020 9:16:16 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Oct 22, 2020 9:12:55 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

You might want to change the typo in the title. 

 Reminded me of time I typed letter when working for CPA! I typed pubic instead of Public Certified Accountant I wasn’t going to comment since I have done the same 

On the Northern California rural radio station one afternoon -

"Join the local gynecological society in a workshop this weekend to learn more about your family tree and where you came from." 

I still laugh when I think about that one. 

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well, they won't be needed. 

First of all, thanks to whatever moderator fixed the typo in my title. It was an accident, I assure you!

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

My seventh grade was in another parochial school, run on a shoestring budget, maybe closer to 30 per class. I had the best grounding in grammar any kid could have gotten- I still draw on it and it came in very useful when I studied other languages. Is anyone taught when to use "who" vs. "whom" anymore?

[jerseygirl]

In NJ property taxes pay most education expenses , buildings teachers etc in the town. Most towns pay about 80% of taxes for town schools. NJ has large prop taxes as well as income taxes (it’s ridiculous don’t know why we still live here??!) Some poorer districts get additional money from state income taxes, not so poor towns get a small amount.
Counties generally have target/magnet/vocational high schools but don’t know how these are funded. Think each school district/town pays an amount for each kid going to these target/magnet/vocational schools.
School districts are responsible for school transportation for all students - public, t/m/v or private. If the private school is in town the town school buses drive the kids. Most towns have enough kids going to county magnet schools to run buses to the towns where the magnet school is located.
Two of our kids went to private school about 15 miles away that only had less than a dozen kids from our town. We got some $ to pay for transportation, about $400/year. Of course we paid their tuition and town taxes and still pay taxes.
It’s fairly common for people to move to an expensive suburb with high property taxes and good schools when their kids are school age. Then the parents move to town with lower taxes when kids are done with school.
We pay our property taxes cause society need educated population and that’s the cost
I really hate that some of our income tax goes to disturbingly poor school districts. In one of these, testing showed 70%?of kids failed math and English. And this district gets a lot of money.
Charter schools - publicly funded but not unionized. I think parents, especially those in crappy school districts must be allowed a choice.

[jerseygirl]

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well, they won't be needed. 

First of all, thanks to whatever moderator fixed the typo in my title. It was an accident, I assure you!

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

My seventh grade was in another parochial school, run on a shoestring budget, maybe closer to 30 per class. I had the best grounding in grammar any kid could have gotten- I still draw on it and it came in very useful when I studied other languages. Is anyone taught when to use "who" vs. "whom" anymore?

Yep, also went to Catholic schools with usually 40 kids in a class and good education. Nuns ran the schools and did a great job!! Too bad so many are closing. Many Catholic schools are in inner cities and have mostly non Catholic minority students but do a great job of educating the kids. I send money to charity to help these

[justme]

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well, they won't be needed. 

First of all, thanks to whatever moderator fixed the typo in my title. It was an accident, I assure you!

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

My seventh grade was in another parochial school, run on a shoestring budget, maybe closer to 30 per class. I had the best grounding in grammar any kid could have gotten- I still draw on it and it came in very useful when I studied other languages. Is anyone taught when to use "who" vs. "whom" anymore?

When did you go to school? I think you are either my mom's age or older - which means you went to school well before the court cases were that changed schools. Those cases brought the handicapped (using the term in the cases) into regular classrooms. So yeah, that's a huge, big, monumental change. I also wonder whether changing aspects of the workforce - ie not dropping out because you can earn more working also changed the landscape. Not to mention there's the whole digital aspect students also have to learn. Several more decades of history and advancements in other subjects. 

I got stuck in a combo class of 4th and 5th graders and I remember a ton of problems. And that was with me frequently leaving to go to gifted classes. And with two teachers in the 4/5 class. An that was only 20 years ago. 

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 22, 2020 13:26:48 GMT -5 justme said:

Oct 22, 2020 13:09:14 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

The teachers are paid out of the funding from the state, but according to steps, not amount of students they teach. This is Michigan, so they are paid well, especially considering the cost of living.

So they've taken the largest spending that's determined by the cost of living (salaries and buildings) out of the per pupil spending, but don't keep the spending equal? Yeah, sounds strange. I mean, I know there's some exceptions but text books and computers are going to cost the same regardless of whether the kids is in a big city or small town. Definitely agree it seems messed up if the per pupil cost is unbalanced. 

It's incredibly convoluted. I hate to use this (right-wing) source, but they lay it all out there:

www.mackinac.org/8580


It is better than the historical way it was funded, though:

stateofopportunity.michiganradio.org/post/day-michigan-killed-public-schools-and-then-created-system-we-have-today

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 22, 2020 14:52:11 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

First of all, thanks to whatever moderator fixed the typo in my title. It was an accident, I assure you!

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

My seventh grade was in another parochial school, run on a shoestring budget, maybe closer to 30 per class. I had the best grounding in grammar any kid could have gotten- I still draw on it and it came in very useful when I studied other languages. Is anyone taught when to use "who" vs. "whom" anymore?

Yep, also went to Catholic schools with usually 40 kids in a class and good education. Nuns ran the schools and did a great job!! Too bad so many are closing. Many Catholic schools are in inner cities and have mostly non Catholic minority students but do a great job of educating the kids. I send money to charity to help these

I went to Catholic for 6 years. It was better in some ways, and worse in others. Class size was never over 31, though, and it was 16 in 5th and 6th graders

[billisonboard]

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Oct 22, 2020 10:32:06 GMT -5 justme said:

As for some kids needing different things from school - well maybe if the schools actually get funded to a good point where teachers aren't having to deal with more students than one can actually teach well, they won't be needed. 

First of all, thanks to whatever moderator fixed the typo in my title. It was an accident, I assure you!

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

My seventh grade was in another parochial school, run on a shoestring budget, maybe closer to 30 per class. I had the best grounding in grammar any kid could have gotten- I still draw on it and it came in very useful when I studied other languages. Is anyone taught when to use "who" vs. "whom" anymore?

re: Highlighted sentence 1. How aware of all that was going on were you as a 6/7 year? How accurate is your detailed memory from how many years ago? re: Highlighted sentence 2. Yes.

[stillmovingforward]

Please realize that schools are underfunded but expected to parent, fed, and deal with emotionally, physically, and psychologically hurt kids. These kids used to drop out or not get sent to school in decades past. It's harder to keep kids out of school now then it used to be (but by no means impossible) if the parent or guardian wants to.

These kids deserve schooling, even if they don't appear to be learning much or they cause issues or their parents are deadbeats. You never know what is running into their heads that will help them pull themselves together later in life.

It's easier to teach normal kids and families like the ones most of us are used to. It's much harder and more expensive to teach the troubled kids and families. But they still deserve it.

[stillmovingforward]

And just 'sending them to foster care' doesn't solve the school's problems with these kids. They are still problematic. Trust me, I had LOTS of talks to teachers and school personnel (and horrified parents) who thought that, just because we were good parents, the kids in my house magically became sweet and nice! It can take YEARS!

[Tiny]

Oct 22, 2020 7:35:58 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

The "Schooling During a Pandemic" thread keeps getting posts on this subject and someone suggested a separate thread, so here it is, including my thoughts on some of the points posted by others.

1.  Providing public funds to private schools siphons money from the public school system. 

My understanding is that because of the Byzantine nature of school funding, most of the taxes supporting schools get funneled from the municipalities to the state, which then doles it back out based on number of students, with some re-distribution in favor of poorer districts and after raking off administrative costs.  This means that the loss of a student to a private school means a loss of state funding significant enough to make a dent in the public school operations.  I'd like to see this whole system broken apart so that property taxes supporting public schools stay completely in the area they're collected, other than a modest amount for state-level administration.  That way there's more to go around and loss of a student to the private school will make less of a dent in the public school finances.
 

That just makes things worse - unless you are already wealthy or live in a place that can support high property taxes. 

Illinois kind of has this issue.  the public schools in suburbs of Chicago with higher income families provide a lot more services to their students.   I hear the public schools downstate are often scrambling for money to provide basic educational services to their kids.  Illinois funds schools from local property taxes.    

I don't have kids.  And I don't carp about paying taxes to fund a service I don't use.  I fully embrace the ideal that every kid should have access to a quality education.  The quality of that education should not be based on how much money their parents make.  

What you are proposing would make things worse.  It would make things better for the people who live in high income areas - more of their "tax dollars" would stay in their communities.   TBH.  I think the higer income areas would much rather just have "vouchers" so they pay nothing into the public school system and can use that money for the private school of their choice.   

That might be more in line with what you seem to be advocating.  High income areas wouldn't need Public Schools.    High income earners also tend to be able to keep their "problem children" out of the public school systems - so they wouldn't need public schools.   Those on the lower end of the pay scale will probably get some sort of "scholarship" or financial aid to have their kids educated at the Private Schools available.  Or perhaps there will be some sort of local government "exceptions" where the kids from "rich area A" who can't get into the Private School or who's parents can't pay for the Private School - will have to enroll in "that area over there B" public schools.  If the local "rich area A" politicians are savvy enough Area A won't have to contribute much to Area B public schools and will let the poor smucks in Area B pay to "educate" their lower income/problem children.    

That's how that usually works.  

[raeoflyte]

Private schools 100% discriminate against children and families. Government funds should never be sent to them.

To say nothing of the fact that so many people are happy to hand over their own funds to institutions that continue such practices.

[giramomma]

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

And why did you follow those rules? Because of fear? Fear of God? Fear of corporal punishment either by the nuns and/or then by your parents?

Making choices out of fear should not be intepreted as the teachers being wonderful teachers.

ETA: I know Jersey said she got a good education. I'm impressed. My mom (mid-70s) was not allowed to take more than two years of math in high school even though she was college bound because she was a woman, and her proper place was in the home, taking care of her husband and children. I don't call teaching girls that they really have no business doing anything out of the home a "good education."

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2020 0:00:05 GMT -5 giramomma said:

And why did you follow those rules? Because of fear? Fear of God? Fear of corporal punishment either by the nuns and/or then by your parents?

No, It was just what you did. Nuns didn't use corporal punishment (although they had when my mother and her brothers went there, till Grandma told the nun who twisted my Uncle's ear that from now on the nun should inform her of misbehavior and Grandma would apply appropriate discipline). God was not the bogeyman.

My mom (mid-70s) was not allowed to take more than two years of math in high school even though she was college bound because she was a woman, and her proper place was in the home, taking care of her husband and children. I don't call teaching girls that they really have no business doing anything out of the home a "good education."

The Guidance Counselor in my parochial HS (Class of '71) encouraged me to look at careers in Engineering and said he hated to see an intelligent woman become a "baby machine". Radical stuff.  And I taught myself Calculus from Dad's college textbook since my school didn't offer it to either sex.  The teachers encouraged it.

Oct 22, 2020 20:05:20 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Private schools 100% discriminate against children and families. Government funds should never be sent to them.

To say nothing of the fact that so many people are happy to hand over their own funds to institutions that continue such practices.

The public HS my son would have attended had one black kid in the class and a few Asians. The rest were Caucasian. At NY Military Academy he went to school with kids from Brooklyn, the Bronx, China and Trinidad. The local HS had no black teachers. One of his favorite mentors at NYMA was a black retired Army officer.

You tell me which school discriminated.

Oct 22, 2020 17:01:31 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Please realize that schools are underfunded but expected to parent, feed, and deal with emotionally, physically, and psychologically hurt kids. These kids used to drop out or not get sent to school in decades past. It's harder to keep kids out of school now then it used to be (but by no means impossible) if the parent or guardian wants to.

These kids deserve schooling, even if they don't appear to be learning much or they cause issues or their parents are deadbeats. You never know what is running into their heads that will help them pull themselves together later in life.

OK, that's a good point- I suppose there were more kids "hidden" from the school system when I was a kid. It seems now, though, that they're allowed to remain in class and be disruptive, keeping the other kids from learning. We need a better solution than that and I'm not sure what it is. Sometimes I think they ought to be taken from their parents and put in orphanages but I know many orhpanages were miserable places.

[tractor]

In our district, the kids that go to our private school are included in the public school count, so the public school gets the money from the state for our students (@$6,000/student) and we used to get no benefit from the public school district.

However, two years ago that finally changed and now we get 1/3 of the funding returned in the form of teacher support and educational services. So yes, public funds are used to support a private school, but only after the public school takes 66% off the top.

[tractor]

Oct 22, 2020 13:09:14 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Oct 22, 2020 13:05:28 GMT -5 justme said:

Yea that sounds better if it's fixed so it was equal to everyone. All kindergarteners are worth X state wide, etc.

Hmm are teachers paid using the per pupil money? Cuz I feel like the number of teachers should be determined by number of students but pay shouldn't if that makes sense? Like yea teachers in San Fran should make more than those in BFE, but otherwise the schools should get the same amount per student to cover books and all that other shit that isn't a human being.

The teachers are paid out of the funding from the state, but according to steps, not amount of students they teach. This is Michigan, so they are paid well, especially considering the cost of living.

This is false. A significant portion of the funding for the district, and thus teacher salaries, come from local tax revenue. My wife works in a very poor district in rural Michigan. Her pay after 29 years is less than $45K. There is no uniform pay scale for teachers across districts and they have to continually make cuts to stay afloat.

She certainly doesn’t do it for the money as should could make more working at Walmart. It sucks, but you either have a heart go working with kids or you don’t. As a special education teacher, I think she’d work for free if she had no other choice, she loves those kids.

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2020 8:01:37 GMT -5 tractor said:

My wife works in a very poor district in rural Michigan. Her pay after 29 years is less than $45K. There is no uniform pay scale for teachers across districts and they have to continually make cuts to stay afloat.

She certainly doesn’t do it for the money as should could make more working at Walmart.

While I agree that's pretty skimpy base pay for a teacher with 29 years of experience, does she get health insurance or a pension? Those are both very valuable. I'm pretty sure Wal-Mart has no pension plan and they try to keep their employees' hours low enough that they don't qualify for health insurance.

[jerseygirl]

Oct 23, 2020 0:00:05 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Oct 22, 2020 14:46:13 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

When I was a kid, I was in a combined first and second grade with 50 kids. The other first grade class was also 50 kids. I don't remember any big problems. It was a parochial school and there were rules and we followed them. One kid was clearly low IQ and got passed from grade to grade but my 4th grade teacher actually git him started reading- I still remember how excited she was when he had copied down the letters from a STOP sign and wanted to know what it spelled. How many is too many. What's changed?

And why did you follow those rules? Because of fear? Fear of God? Fear of corporal punishment either by the nuns and/or then by your parents?

Making choices out of fear should not be intepreted as the teachers being wonderful teachers.

ETA: I know Jersey said she got a good education. I'm impressed. My mom (mid-70s) was not allowed to take more than two years of math in high school even though she was college bound because she was a woman, and her proper place was in the home, taking care of her husband and children. I don't call teaching girls that they really have no business doing anything out of the home a "good education."

I went to a Catholic inner city high school and in same age range as your mom. There were essentially 2 tracks - college prep and business for kids mostly girls not planning on college. About 75% were in the college group. I took 4 years of math and nuns pushed smart girls into the college track with math even if some of these girls insisted they were getting married right after HS. One girl was really annoyed and said ‘ I don’t need algebra and calculus to turn on a stove’ Well Sister David Ellen challenged her and did insist she wasn’t allowed in this school to neglect her mind.
The kids in the business group, mostly girls wanting to be secretaries did only take 2 years of math. Was your mom maybe in this type of course? The nuns didn’t restrict these kids to 2 years of math but the program did emphasize secretarial skills ( as these existed at that time).
So yes my friends were mostly in the pre college group and were challenged also taking biology chemistry physics, Latin and French. I went on to a small Catholic women’s college and majored in biology minored in chemistry and these courses were taught mainly by nuns. I went on to get a PhD in biochemistry with research primarily in pharmacology. The graduate courses were often combined with med school courses. Actually I had many of them in my college- biochem, anatomy, physiology, micro, biochem- and had a relatively easy time as the fantastic nuns in my college had taught us so well!
I am so grateful to have had the opportunity to be a student taught and challenged by these nuns who back in the late 50s early 60s inspired many girls