Covid19 and indoor ventilation and schools/offices

[Tiny]

This is a really long article but interesting about how the 'air borne' part of Covid19 seems to be being ignored. 

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/why-arent-we-talking-more-about-airborne-transmission/614737/  


This jist is that Covid19 does spread thru the air - breathing, talking, singing, coughing, sneezing.  And that spreading events are generally indoors.   There's little to no talk about how to make indoor spaces "safer" thru better ventilation. 


There's a bit on schools and how providing better ventilation (some low cost ways) MIGHT make attending school safer for everyone: 

Jimenez also wondered why the National Guard hadn’t been deployed to set up tent schools (not sealed, but letting air in like an outdoor wedding canopy) around the country, and why the U.S. hadn’t set up the mass production of HEPA filters for every classroom and essential indoor space. Instead, one air-quality expert reported, teachers who wanted to buy portable HEPA filters were being told that they weren’t allowed to, because the CDC wasn’t recommending them. It is still difficult to get Clorox wipes in my supermarket, but I went online to check, and there is no shortage of portable HEPA filters. There is no run on them.

As a commuter and an office worker  (and who's been "I aint breathing your air!!!" since like February...)   I'm concerned about about riding the train and breathing everyone elses air and sitting at my desk breathing my coworkers air.        I've had some 'hints' from my employer that they were examining the HVAC (mixing in more outside air) along with mitigating virus on surfaces (touchless elevators and wiping down door handles several times per day - and having the nightly cleaners wipe down desks/surfaces...)   so I suspect when I am told to return to the office - my employer will address the "air we're all breathing" issues.     I'm wondering if this ventilation/air flow issues will become the next big thing that everyone is talking about.... 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

This pretty much goes back to the statement then solution to pollution is dilution’.  

Even with the best of filters, viral particles do not get the opportunity to disperse (dilute) in any enclosed building before they encounter a human.  Get enough of a viral load, you get infected.

Does make sense to look at outdoor classrooms.  

[teen persuasion]

I remember Cuomo wouldn't let malls open unless they had some special type of HVAC. Eventually it got toned down to a specific kind of filter (because no mall was going to replace its HVAC system).

There was a study mentioned on the news a few days ago about placement of ventilation in classrooms. They looked at whether the teacher should be at the end of the room with the vent, or at the opposite end. I believe the conclusion was that the teacher should be at the end with the vent, then the spread was less to students (if the teacher was infected). Didn't study if the students were the infected ones.

[Ryan]

I think this made its way in the news last month, but WHO came out and said it's spreads primarily through droplets.  I don't know, but I thought I read that most masks can't filter out aerosols so, if that's the case, I would think there'd be a boatload of people sick.  I mean IL is a huge state and we're only getting 1500 cases a day right now.  If it truly was airborne, I would think there'd be way more cases. I have a friend that drove 12 hours in a car with his wife (covid positive) and didn't get infected.  

Still though, hopefully that is the next step of sickness prevention.  It would be helpful not just for COVID but for flu season.

[Deleted]

The article, if it's the one I read, talks about how the WHO refuses to admit the virus is aerosolized because it's requiring studies that are nearly impossible to do in a lab.

The article said there's overwhelming evidence it is and people should be advised to protect themselves accordingly.

I wonder if this is why I started hearing people should wear face shields or goggles in addition to masks a few days ago. 

They are starting to warn people in the press that your eyes are an infection point and that regular glasses won't protect you.

Brix also said in her interview that the pandemic has entered a new phase because is out of control everywhere and people in rural communities need to be vigilant. She also advised wearing face coverings in your own home if someone is high risk or someone in the home believes they have been exposed. 

I saw the best comment last night to describe the US right now - The US has become a sociopath. Yep.  

[Tiny]

Aug 2, 2020 22:05:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think this made its way in the news last month, but WHO came out and said it's spreads primarily through droplets.  I don't know, but I thought I read that most masks can't filter out aerosols so, if that's the case, I would think there'd be a boatload of people sick.  I mean IL is a huge state and we're only getting 1500 cases a day right now.  If it truly was airborne, I would think there'd be way more cases. I have a friend that drove 12 hours in a car with his wife (covid positive) and didn't get infected.  

Still though, hopefully that is the next step of sickness prevention.  It would be helpful not just for COVID but for flu season.

There kind of are a boatload of sick people...      

As for masks... are you arguing from the "masks keep me from breathing in the virus" or masks keep the virus other people are breathing out from spreading quite so far so I don't have to breathe in their virus laden air"?    
 
Seriously,  the powers that be that advocate wearing a mask - hit the "a mask keeps the Mask Wearers Cloud of exhaled air from circulating quite so widely - and THAT helps limit the spread of Covid19"  button just about every time.  (maybe I'm not seeing mainstream mask debates?) 

I haven't heard/seen/inferred from  anything about how wearing a mask will let you walk thru or spend hours in clouds of covid19 "infested" air with impunity.          

It's kind of like wearing a seat belt while driving.   It might not keep you from getting hurt - but it very well might keep you from dying (by being thrown from the vehicle or being impaled on the steering wheel, or having your head get cracked open when it hits the windshield. )     

FWIW:   I'd rather NOT even have to encounter air that's been in your lungs/nose when I'm in the same room as you... rather than relying solely on a "shield" to protect me from your "air". 

[Tiny]

I'm thinking I want a t-shirt or a mask with the words "Keep your air to yourself!" on it.

[Tiny]

Aug 3, 2020 9:44:52 GMT -5 @shastasnewlife said:

Brix also said in her interview that the pandemic has entered a new phase because is out of control everywhere and people in rural communities need to be vigilant. She also advised wearing face coverings in your own home if someone is high risk or someone in the home believes they have been exposed. 

I saw the best comment last night to describe the US right now - The US has become a sociopath. Yep.  

Yeah,  I think the US has "lost the war" on covid19....    too little, too late.   

And the Atlantic article in my op isn't the same one about the WHO and the debate about "droplets" or "Aerosol" transmission.   

As an armchair "scientist"  -  I'm leaning towards idea that transmission is both droplets and aerosol (as well as the traditional way viruses spread on surfaces - if you use a sick person's glass, etc..).    

[haapai]

It's definitely an article worth reading, along with several other articles that are in the Atlantic today. 

It's also worth reading critically.  I'm rather disappointed that the author seems to think that good ventilation or better ventilation will be enough to make resuming in-person k-12 education anything but a disaster in many parts of the country. 

I rather admire The Atlantic for not sticking to one firm ideological line. 

[haapai]

Aug 2, 2020 22:05:39 GMT -5 Ryan said:

I think this made its way in the news last month, but WHO came out and said it's spreads primarily through droplets.  I don't know, but I thought I read that most masks can't filter out aerosols so, if that's the case, I would think there'd be a boatload of people sick.  I mean IL is a huge state and we're only getting 1500 cases a day right now.  If it truly was airborne, I would think there'd be way more cases. I have a friend that drove 12 hours in a car with his wife (covid positive) and didn't get infected.  

Still though, hopefully that is the next step of sickness prevention.  It would be helpful not just for COVID but for flu season.

I'm assuming that it's airborne and praying that it has a relatively short period of infectiousness.  That's how I reconcile the "why aren't we all sick?" with the "how could that person not get infected". 

I may be engaging in happy delusions.  I'll pray for a short infectious period but conduct myself as if it is not the case.   

[pulmonarymd]

Masks can help in a number of ways. They can decrease how much virus an infected person spews into the air, and can decrease the distance these particles can travel. In addition, they can decrease the dose of virus a susceptible individual takes into the upper airway. There is a minimum infectious dose of all micro-organisms. If you inhale a dose below that, you do not get sick. In addition, the severity of illness is dependent on dose, so if you can keep the dose someone is exposed to, you may not get as sick. Since this virus appears to be spread both as a droplet as well as airborne, if we can cut down on the droplet component, we can decrease the amount of spread in a community, and possibly get a better handle on controlling this.

[Tiny]

Aug 3, 2020 11:36:38 GMT -5 haapai said:

It's definitely an article worth reading, along with several other articles that are in the Atlantic today. 

It's also worth reading critically.  I'm rather disappointed that the author seems to think that good ventilation or better ventilation will be enough to make resuming in-person k-12 education anything but a disaster in many parts of the country. 

I rather admire The Atlantic for not sticking to one firm ideological line. 

yes,  I kind of read that as "oh! a possible idea for what to do".  as oppsoed to to "eureka! a solution!"     I haven't heard anything extra that my local schools are doing other than mask wearing. 
   
I kind of assume they are thinking about ventilation and maybe how/wear students/teachers move around the buildings.   

I think for people to resume gathering in enclosed spaces - many aspects of the space AND what the people there will be doing and what personal protection they need  - all needs to be considered.    An office space, a classroom, a bar, a hair salon, are all "environments" with lots of 'moving parts' that make them comfortable and useful to humans.   I don't think changing one part (say everyone wears a non N95 (or whatever) mask and we're good to go!)  is gonna work. 

I do feel bad that the "guinea pigs" for figuring out how to safely have groups of people join together indoors for long periods of time  are school aged children and the teachers/aides/staff that make the school day happen.     

I suspect if schools manage to open and not have much spread or sickness - office workers will go back, shoppers will return to stores/entertain venues, and life will get back to "normal" - except we'll all be wearing masks.   

[Deleted]

This is the article I read last night in Nature

Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne — but health advice has not caught up

Governments are starting to change policies amid concerns that tiny droplets can carry SARS-CoV-2. And after months of denying the importance of this, the World Health Organization is reconsidering its stance.

Converging lines of evidence indicate that SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic, can pass from person to person in tiny droplets called aerosols that waft through the air and accumulate over time. After months of debate about whether people can transmit the virus through exhaled air, there is growing concern among scientists about this transmission route.

On 6 July, Morawska and aerosol scientist Donald Milton at the University of Maryland, College Park, supported by an international group of 237 other clinicians, infectious-disease physicians, epidemiologists, engineers and aerosol scientists, published a commentary1 in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases that urges the medical community and public-health authorities to acknowledge the potential for airborne transmission. They also call for preventive measures to reduce this type of risk.

The researchers are frustrated that key agencies, such as the World Health Organization (WHO), haven’t been heeding their advice in their public messages.


www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02058-1

[Tiny]

Yeah, it's airborne... and probably not just "droplets":

A single sick person (probably wasn't coughing... who would get anywhere near someone who was coughing (repeatedly) in JUNE 2020) infected 53 of his fellow church goers.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nearly-100-people-in-ohio-got-sick-after-one-man-infected-with-the-coronavirus-attended-a-church-service/ar-BB17DCqi?li=BBnb7Kz


It doesn't say if this person was a "celebrant" (on the altar - leading or reading or part of the choir) or an "usher" == someone who talked/came into contact intentionally with lots of people at the service OR if he was just a regular Joe in a pew.

It would be super scary if he as a regular Joe in a pew  (his exhalations spread  way further than 6 or 10 feet)   less so if he was actively leading (talking loud/projecting during the entire service) or leading songs (again loud and projecting) or doing readings (loud and projecting) - lots of exhaled air going the distance....  

I'm sure they have a "map" of were people were sitting during the service (people like to sit in their "pew" or same areas) and what science can 'glean' from that and the ventilation/air flow pattern in the space.

I'm guessing people on the altar speaking/singing were at least 10 feet from the first row of "pews".... for 50 plus people to be at the service - it wasn't a small intimate chapel...  geez that virus may have been floating footloose and fancy free... 

Wear masks people! Gather outside if you have to gather... and keep some space between you (your Pod of people) and other people's Pods - don't circulate people between "pods"....

[thyme4change]

I really hope my kids' schools have open air teaching when they go back in October.