jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 20, 2020 7:42:06 GMT -5
I am not sure how I feel about some of these branding changes. Are they truly necessary? I just saw this morning that Eskimo pies are rebranding as well. What are your thoughts?
Saw this on FB but looks similar to Wikipedia.
The world knew her as "Aunt Jemima," but her given name was Nancy Green and she was a true American success story. She was born a slave in 1834 Montgomery County, KY... and became a wealthy superstar in the advertising world, as its first living trademark.
Green was 56-yrs old when she was selected as spokesperson for a new ready-mixed, self-rising pancake flour and made her debut in 1893 at a fair and exposition in Chicago. She demonstrated the pancake mix and served thousands of pancakes... and became an immediate star. She was a good storyteller, her personality was warm and appealing, and her showmanship was exceptional. Her exhibition booth drew so many people that special security personnel were assigned to keep the crowds moving.
Nancy Green was signed to a lifetime contract, traveled on promotional tours all over the country, and was extremely well paid. Her financial freedom and stature as a national spokesperson enabled her to become a leading advocate against poverty and in favor of equal rights for folks in Chicago.
She maintained her job until her death in 1923, at age 89.
This was a remarkable woman...
And WE just allowed her memory and success to be erased.
END OF FB POST
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Jun 20, 2020 7:45:22 GMT -5
I find it sad to see these changes. I understand why, but it would be nice if we could just accept that syrup and pancake mix aren't meant to be racially divisive.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 20, 2020 7:54:48 GMT -5
Thank you for the OP. I was OK with the rebranding of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's prior to reading this. Now I am unsure about the former. The Eskimo pies one I admit I don't get.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jun 20, 2020 8:57:07 GMT -5
Her story was not well known initially; the change will actually highlight it. She achieved great success in her life and her achievement is one of many steps society made to get where it is today. I would love to hear or read about how she overcame all the obstacles she faced. Her success is not erased due to a name change.
Companies change names all the time. I will give PepsiCo some credit for at least trying to be a little forward thinking on the name before it gets any negative condemnation. Unfortunately, I think this change is due to a bunch of white men thinking that they know the answer to being progressive and they can claim success by changing one name. If this was a true movement, PepsiCo would also consider changing the Quaker Oats name or, better yet, look at salaries and hiring practices.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 20, 2020 9:11:21 GMT -5
Why the name Jemima and why an aunt? Why was a black woman hired for this role? Why was it successful?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 20, 2020 9:24:11 GMT -5
And WE just allowed her memory and success to be erased. What exactly do you (generica you - because I think the OP is just repeating/reusing a phrase they heard and assume it means something and the same thing to every one) mean by ERASED? Is that some new kind of Euphamism for something? What does it mean (I don't think that word means what you think it means - so what do you think it means ) My emotional feelings when I read that sentence: Erased? That's terrifying.... have my dead parents and relatives been erased because their photos and other mementos no longer grace my house? (Maybe I should get a tattoo commemartating them - so they will not fall into the black void of nothingness until I die) My god, my favorite grade school teachers - gone for ever.... erased. The way my suburb was "corn fields" erased when the houses started getting built. The past is being erased at a tremendous rate... I have got to start writing it all down and then making sure everyone everywhere KNOWS my "history" or else - once I'm dead - it's all erased!!!!! What does that mean - her memory and success has been erased?? Did you (the generic you) know about her life just from the picture on the bottle of syrup? Or even that she was a real person and not a made up person? Just from the smiling face on a bottle of syrup? Really, what's with this "erased" thing? FWIW: I thought libraries (books, images, in the form of data and museums big and small and local) MAINTAINED history (and people's stories) - not statues in parks or images on consumer products. If Aunt Jemima needs to be memorialized - I'm pretty sure it's common for Mega Corps to have an area at headquarters with the "history" of the Mega Corp - there's plenty of painted Portraits and other memorabilia (books, ledgers, stuff) in glass cases 'telling' the story of important people and/or things that "made the company" across America (and the world). For example: "Uncle Dudley" smiles down from his Portrait in my corporate headquarters hung in the "lobby" of the conference center - as does the smaller portraits of other important to my mega corp's history. There's items - photos, written letters, a lamp and a desk as well. I think it would be nice if Nancy Green had a "shrine" at corporate headquarters - then perhaps she wouldn't be "erased" from history. (bet many of you know my Mega Corp - but have no idea of the history or of "Uncle Dudley" - that doesn't mean he and his fellow businessmen didn't exist and have been erased. ) Heck, even at my local parish there was a portrait of the first pastor beaming down from a wall (with a little placard saying who he was - in the vestibule of the rectory. The man was dead 30 years when I was 10 and first saw the portrait. I assume he popped back into existence (pulled from the void of "erased") when I first saw the portrait??0) Sorry for the rant... that "erased" thing pushes my buttons big time...
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Jun 20, 2020 9:26:16 GMT -5
If change is wanted that’s fine and understand Aunt Jrmima. Just read also wanting to change Mrs Butterworth bottle - shape looks like a southern ‘Mammy’. My kids loved the bottles I never thought about it other than old fashioned woman. Maybe change to the bear honey bottles ? Or Maple tree even though it’s really not maple syrup. Sugar cane?
Remember the little log cabins for syrup, little beer steins for Kosciousko mustard? All a little quirky but cute
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 20, 2020 9:54:09 GMT -5
And WE just allowed her memory and success to be erased. What exactly do you (generica you - because I think the OP is just repeating/reusing a phrase they heard and assume it means something and the same thing to every one) mean by ERASED? Is that some new kind of Euphamism for something? What does it mean (I don't think that word means what you think it means - so what do you think it means ) My emotional feelings when I read that sentence: Erased? That's terrifying.... have my dead parents and relatives been erased because their photos and other mementos no longer grace my house? (Maybe I should get a tattoo commemartating them - so they will not fall into the black void of nothingness until I die) My god, my favorite grade school teachers - gone for ever.... erased. The way my suburb was "corn fields" erased when the houses started getting built. The past is being erased at a tremendous rate... I have got to start writing it all down and then making sure everyone everywhere KNOWS my "history" or else - once I'm dead - it's all erased!!!!! What does that mean - her memory and success has been erased?? Did you (the generic you) know about her life just from the picture on the bottle of syrup? Or even that she was a real person and not a made up person? Just from the smiling face on a bottle of syrup? Really, what's with this "erased" thing? FWIW: I thought libraries (books, images, in the form of data and museums big and small and local) MAINTAINED history (and people's stories) - not statues in parks or images on consumer products. If Aunt Jemima needs to be memorialized - I'm pretty sure it's common for Mega Corps to have an area at headquarters with the "history" of the Mega Corp - there's plenty of painted Portraits and other memorabilia (books, ledgers, stuff) in glass cases 'telling' the story of important people and/or things that "made the company" across America (and the world). For example: "Uncle Dudley" smiles down from his Portrait in my corporate headquarters hung in the "lobby" of the conference center - as does the smaller portraits of other important to my mega corp's history. There's items - photos, written letters, a lamp and a desk as well. I think it would be nice if Nancy Green had a "shrine" at corporate headquarters - then perhaps she wouldn't be "erased" from history. (bet many of you know my Mega Corp - but have no idea of the history or of "Uncle Dudley" - that doesn't mean he and his fellow businessmen didn't exist and have been erased. ) Heck, even at my local parish there was a portrait of the first pastor beaming down from a wall (with a little placard saying who he was - in the vestibule of the rectory. The man was dead 30 years when I was 10 and first saw the portrait. I assume he popped back into existence (pulled from the void of "erased") when I first saw the portrait??0) Sorry for the rant... that "erased" thing pushes my buttons big time... Her memory erased was part of the FB comment I copied. My comments were only the first questions and stating that this was from FB
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2020 9:58:44 GMT -5
Apparently "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for African Americans because they were not allowed to have the honorary titles of "Ms" " Mrs" or "Mr". Those were reserved for white people and heaven help a POC at the time if they didn't use it.
So "Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" are reminder of POC being outsiders in society.
Also if you dig deeper into both neither brand is really honorary of the people involved. The brands themselves are caricatures with a palatable back story to make consumers comfortable.
Nancy Green exists and there is a real man behind the species of rice but do.you REALLY know anything about them beyond the packaging? Maybe it's not as honorary as people are trying to tell themselves.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Jun 20, 2020 10:05:04 GMT -5
The post I have seen passed around on FB says that Nancy Green invented Aunt Jemima's products and died a millionaire, so it is outrageous that she is being erased. Nancy Green's Wiki entry is attached to the post, but it does not say she died a millionaire. Another Wikipedia entry says the ready made pancake mix was invented by two men, and "Aunt Jemima" came from minstrel shows.
There were several woman making appearances as Aunt Jemima over the years. One lived in my area, and her obituary apparently said she didn't like it but it was a job. I have always thought of Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben like Betty Crocker; a made up person to advertise a product.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 14:27:21 GMT -5
Apparently "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for African Americans because they were not allowed to have the honorary titles of "Ms" " Mrs" or "Mr". Those were reserved for white people and heaven help a POC at the time if they didn't use it. So "Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" are reminder of POC being outsiders in society. Also if you dig deeper into both neither brand is really honorary of the people involved. The brands themselves are caricatures with a palatable back story to make consumers comfortable. Nancy Green exists and there is a real man behind the species of rice but do.you REALLY know anything about them beyond the packaging? Maybe it's not as honorary as people are trying to tell themselves. This is sort of true, but it isn't as simple as it sounds. Traditionally, Southern children weren't allowed to call grown-ups simply by their first names. You put some sort of honorific in front of it, like Miss or Mr. Miss worked even if the woman was married. My forty-something children still call the older people of the church "Miss Debbie" or "Mr. Ben." If the relationship was close, the adults became honorary "aunts" and "uncles." My daughter was dismissed from jury duty because they asked her how well she knew the DA of her county. (It is a small county so everyone knows everyone.) Her response was, "I call him 'Uncle Johnny.'" So what probably was partially a reflection of the close relationship between many white adults and their former childhood caregivers (think The Help) became distorted over time until it became a racial slur. I think African-Americans found it more demeaning than it was actually meant to be. That is their right, of course, just as women found being called "girls" when they were sixty years old demeaning. The man calling them that may never have meant it to be a sexist term, but the women perceived it to be. I don't see why they don't rename it Jemima's pancake mix or Ben's wild rice. They had already updated the images used. That would preserve whatever legacy is attached while removing the offense. Mrs. Butterworth is a different problem. The shape of the bottle really is racially offensive in the sense it portrays a Southern mammy.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jun 20, 2020 14:34:20 GMT -5
Lmao... you knew nothing about the person who delivered us Aunt Jemimiah... but now that you do wont let a name change ‘erase’ her... obviously the name didn’t teach you anything about it before.. so... lol.
Like my cousin telling me the confederate flag teaches him about his heritage because some of our relatives came from West Virginia... I’m like...not teaching you very well then...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 20, 2020 15:37:46 GMT -5
Did more reading and I think both Aunt Jemima's and Uncle Ben's should drop the names and do a complete rebrand. I don't see it as canceling out the women who were brand ambassadors for Aunt Jemima, but I see no good way forward for either brand without name changes and very different logos. Both have been seen as needing redos before 2020, and its good companies are finally going to address it.
Mrs. Butterworth's might be able to get by with a slight name change and a bottle redesign. I wonder if just calling it Butterworth's and designing the bottle to be a bottle with a yellow cap suggesting a butter pat might work. Land O Lake's seems to have one of the easier paths forward, drop the woman from the logo and concentrate on land with lakes imagery.
I'm curious. If you were to do the Aunt Jemima rebrand what would you do and why?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 20, 2020 16:02:26 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 16:30:09 GMT -5
Maybe I’m not “woke” yet, but none of the products mentioned in this thread have been on my radar. I guess I’ve had bigger fish to fry.
Or maybe living in the South, I’ve become immune to some things that aren’t a direct threat to me and mine, picking my battles in a way.
Anyway, I’d rather see some real strides made in the way we treat each other in this country, and that is more important to me than changing names and pictures on products, especially if it’s just lip service and slapping band-aids on mortal wounds. Just my opinion.
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oped
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Post by oped on Jun 20, 2020 16:53:14 GMT -5
We use maple syrup in this house, so... 😊
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 20, 2020 17:18:37 GMT -5
Maybe I’m not “woke” yet, but none of the products mentioned in this thread have been on my radar. I guess I’ve had bigger fish to fry. Or maybe living in the South, I’ve become immune to some things that aren’t a direct threat to me and mine, picking my battles in a way. Anyway, I’d rather see some real strides made in the way we treat each other in this country, and that is more important to me than changing names and pictures on products, especially if it’s just lip service and slapping band-aids on mortal wounds. Just my opinion. My parents raised me in a part of the country with few POC. Other than people on television, Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben were about the only POC I saw. I think being rid of them is a good thing.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 20, 2020 17:55:20 GMT -5
Maybe I’m not “woke” yet, but none of the products mentioned in this thread have been on my radar. I guess I’ve had bigger fish to fry. Or maybe living in the South, I’ve become immune to some things that aren’t a direct threat to me and mine, picking my battles in a way. Anyway, I’d rather see some real strides made in the way we treat each other in this country, and that is more important to me than changing names and pictures on products, especially if it’s just lip service and slapping band-aids on mortal wounds. Just my opinion. I agree. At the same time though I don't really care if they change it either. It's not like the characters actually taught anything about the real people behind them. Can't erase history if you never knew it to begin with. Now if Harriet Tubman could finally get on the $20 bill THAT would be honoring history.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 20, 2020 20:30:09 GMT -5
These kind of things are weird for me. Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are not the only famous black figures I know of so I never thought of them as representative of anything other than maybe good cooks. I knew nothing of the history of Aunt and Uncle for black people. In my family kids call adults too close to be Mr. and Mrs. so and so Aunt and Uncle. So to me there has never been anything the least derogatory about these brands. It kind of feels like we are resurrecting racist stuff that had already died. It doesn't feel like it moves us closer to the goal posts. That said, I have no attachment to the brand names at all and they can change them if they want.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 20, 2020 20:45:34 GMT -5
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Jun 21, 2020 8:51:43 GMT -5
Apparently "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for African Americans because they were not allowed to have the honorary titles of "Ms" " Mrs" or "Mr". Those were reserved for white people and heaven help a POC at the time if they didn't use it. So "Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" are reminder of POC being outsiders in society. Also if you dig deeper into both neither brand is really honorary of the people involved. The brands themselves are caricatures with a palatable back story to make consumers comfortable. Nancy Green exists and there is a real man behind the species of rice but do.you REALLY know anything about them beyond the packaging? Maybe it's not as honorary as people are trying to tell themselves. I appreciate the explanation. I confess I had not thought of the brands as offensive and the move to rebrand left me wondering where representation ends and exploitation begins (cf the movement to increase POC based programming on tv). Live and learn. (We use maple syrup and mix our own pancake batter in this house...although DH is really fond of the minute rice cups! Don’t think those have Uncle Mr. Ben on them though.)
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 21, 2020 9:04:18 GMT -5
At the k-12 schools, being called Aunt Jemima or being told you look like Aunt Jemima is considered an insult. You also don't hear kids throw around insults like "You look like the Brawny lumberjack!" or "You look like the Mr. Clean Man."
That said, I do have a hard time with the concept that we should simply get rid of everything racist. I'd prefer, for example, that everyone be required to Read Gone with The Wind, and then talk about everything bad in it, rather than trying to wipe the book and movie from existence.
I've always found that in my life, whether I'm a spouse, child, parent, or worker...conversations yield better understandings than directives "That's bad. Don't do it/watch it/consume it anymore."
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 21, 2020 9:37:44 GMT -5
At the k-12 schools, being called Aunt Jemima or being told you look like Aunt Jemima is considered an insult. You also don't hear kids throw around insults like "You look like the Brawny lumberjack!" or "You look like the Mr. Clean Man."
That said, I do have a hard time with the concept that we should simply get rid of everything racist. I'd prefer, for example, that everyone be required to Read Gone with The Wind, and then talk about everything bad in it, rather than trying to wipe the book and movie from existence.
I've always found that in my life, whether I'm a spouse, child, parent, or worker...conversations yield better understandings than directives "That's bad. Don't do it/watch it/consume it anymore."
I totally agree. We shouldn’t be getting rid of things just because they do not fit into today’s views on what is racist and what is not. In fact, we should watch them and understand the views at the time that they were written or filmed. I remember watching a movie from the 1940s with DH, and it had what we called the “happy slaves” that worked in the plantation house. We were shocked, but that was what a lot of people at that time believed. Just like we were shocked at an old Dean Martin movie watching him driving down the road with a cigarette and drink and ogling women.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 21, 2020 9:38:35 GMT -5
They could get rid of the caricatures, which they are, and replace them with the real faces of the people the brands claim to represent. Rename the products accordingly too. Uncle Ben is not the name of the man who developed the rice or the chef who first used it. Obviously Aunt Jemima isn't the real name.
Then you're actually acknowledging the people. Right now the brands are black caricatures and I can get why it bothers people. It's not all that different from discussions about the NFL using Native American caricatures for team brands.
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mary2029
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Post by mary2029 on Jun 21, 2020 9:54:37 GMT -5
Where does this end? Do we get rid of all caricatures or just ones depicting blacks? Should Juanita and Jose Ole also be changed? What about Quaker Oats, Mr. Clean or the Pillsbury dough boy?
I personally am asking as I don't know what I think. Since this thread started, I have been thinking about the uproar to have black Barbies and other dolls available. There was the news clip 2 to 3 years ago about the little boy in the wheelchair mesmerized with the Target billboard of a child in a chair. We want to be inclusive and not be racist. Does eliminating black (or brown) caricatures do that?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2020 10:12:54 GMT -5
... I remember watching a movie from the 1940s with DH, and it had what we called the “happy slaves” that worked in the plantation house. We were shocked, but that was what a lot of people at that time believed. Just like we were shocked at an old Dean Martin movie watching him driving down the road with a cigarette and drink and ogling women. And as adults, we can process those things. I remember growing up as a white male in a white male privilege bubble seeing such things and believing them to be true and the way things should be. I have been smoke free for about 35 years and don't drink and drive any longer. I know intellectually, now as an adult, there were no "happy slaves" and that women aren't there for my visual pleasure. But there are still times that I really want a cigarette.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 21, 2020 10:21:59 GMT -5
Where does this end? Do we get rid of all caricatures or just ones depicting blacks? Should Juanita and Jose Ole also be changed? What about Quaker Oats, Mr. Clean or the Pillsbury dough boy? I personally am asking as I don't know what I think. Since this thread started, I have been thinking about the uproar to have black Barbies and other dolls available. There was the news clip 2 to 3 years ago about the little boy in the wheelchair mesmerized with the Target billboard of a child in a chair. We want to be inclusive and not be racist. Does eliminating black (or brown) caricatures do that? I think it is possible to have a open honest discussion concerning each example. I don't see a reason to get rid of Quaker Oats nor the image on the box. If a person does, let them make their case. I will consider it and might change my mind. The same with Mr. Clean. I have become a bit of a dough boy these days, so I am halfway there on agreeing he should be gone.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 21, 2020 10:29:35 GMT -5
Here is the AP's article refuting that. apnews.com/afs:Content:9030960288I have a problem with Wikipedia, because anyone can change it - so I always train of salt, but here is another perspective. Specifically read the character section: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_JemimaThis one states Nancy Green was a model and a spokeswoman, but it wasn't her formula. If she were a millionaire in 1923, why was she working as a housekeeper? I doubt a food company would have made a contributor a millionaire - especially a black woman at that time. It is a pleasant story, with no mention of racism, but also isn't what the facebook post says, nor does it mention her wealthy status. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_GreenHere is the song, which was often sung in blackface. Here is a link to a book about her www.amazon.com/dp/0813918111/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_-I37EbGYBB8XSThe summary of this book does not seem to support the millionaire, independent happy cook story. And then, of course, the logical answer. No one knew her story. Changing the name doesn't take away a lovely history that we all sat down and discussed at breakfast every time we had pancakes. I bet less than 2% of Americans had any clue who Nancy Green was before last week. If her history is so important (and the lovely millionaire story is so accurate), let's put up a statue. Let's put her picture and story and proof of her widely successful food brand in museums. I hear there is a big push to empty some podiums in various parks and civic spaces across the south these days. Maybe this is the opportunity to put up the story of a supremely successful black woman who took the white guys who needed her pancake recipe for more than one million dollars.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 21, 2020 13:44:55 GMT -5
Apparently "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for African Americans because they were not allowed to have the honorary titles of "Ms" " Mrs" or "Mr". Those were reserved for white people and heaven help a POC at the time if they didn't use it.So "Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" are reminder of POC being outsiders in society. Also if you dig deeper into both neither brand is really honorary of the people involved. The brands themselves are caricatures with a palatable back story to make consumers comfortable. Nancy Green exists and there is a real man behind the species of rice but do.you REALLY know anything about them beyond the packaging? Maybe it's not as honorary as people are trying to tell themselves. Just for the sake of information, Ms., Mr., and Mrs. does not exist in the Russian language. All of my parents' friends were 'Aunt" and "Uncle' to me. The polite way to address someone is Name and Patronymic. If my name is Maria, and my father's name is Ivan, the respectful way to address me is Maria Ivanovna.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 21, 2020 15:12:51 GMT -5
Apparently "Aunt" and "Uncle" were used for African Americans because they were not allowed to have the honorary titles of "Ms" " Mrs" or "Mr". Those were reserved for white people and heaven help a POC at the time if they didn't use it.So "Aunt Jemima" and "Uncle Ben" are reminder of POC being outsiders in society. Also if you dig deeper into both neither brand is really honorary of the people involved. The brands themselves are caricatures with a palatable back story to make consumers comfortable. Nancy Green exists and there is a real man behind the species of rice but do.you REALLY know anything about them beyond the packaging? Maybe it's not as honorary as people are trying to tell themselves. Just for the sake of information, Ms., Mr., and Mrs. does not exist in the Russian language. All of my parents' friends were 'Aunt" and "Uncle' to me. The polite way to address someone is Name and Patronymic. If my name is Maria, and my father's name is Ivan, the respectful way to address me is Maria Ivanovna. I don't think the Mammie culture nor the pancake people in 1915 were following Russian nomenclature.
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