weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 4, 2019 16:47:59 GMT -5
1. The Association of Catholic Bishops aren't just voicing their opinions. They're trying to overturn the law. Not going to happen. 2. It doesn't sound like YOU know how it works. Protecting the right of providers to act according to their beliefs and values Not all health care providers will be comfortable with medical assistance in dying. The federal practice may not be consistent with a provider's beliefs and values. The federal legislation does not force any person to provide or help to provide medical assistance in dying.
Provincial and territorial governments have the responsibility for determining how and where health care services are provided. They may also make policies around where medical assistance in dying can take place as long as they do not conflict with the Criminal Code. www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assistance-dying.htmlI didn't ask if Canadian law DOES force Catholics to perform PAS...I asked if YOU thought it should, since you think religious excuses for not performing medical procedures is not a good thing. And if you don't think they should have to, the question is why are some medical procedures ok for people to opt out of for religious reasons and some are not. And of course they're trying to overturn the law. That's what people do when they don't agree with laws. The point isn't whether it's going to happen, you're arguing they should even be allowed to disagree and try to change things. Of course they should, everyone should have that right...it doesn't mean they'll be successful. Do you feel that everyone should be silenced in their opinions? Or just people who disagree with you? You asked me no such thing.....you just yammered about everyone having a right to their opinion. One more time with feeling.......they're not just voicing their opinions. They're actively working to overturn the law. I don't care if some opt out due to their religious beliefs.....as long as the services are still available to the public.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 4, 2019 16:50:38 GMT -5
I didn't ask if Canadian law DOES force Catholics to perform PAS...I asked if YOU thought it should, since you think religious excuses for not performing medical procedures is not a good thing. And if you don't think they should have to, the question is why are some medical procedures ok for people to opt out of for religious reasons and some are not. And of course they're trying to overturn the law. That's what people do when they don't agree with laws. The point isn't whether it's going to happen, you're arguing they should even be allowed to disagree and try to change things. Of course they should, everyone should have that right...it doesn't mean they'll be successful. Do you feel that everyone should be silenced in their opinions? Or just people who disagree with you? You asked me no such thing.....you just yammered about everyone having a right to their opinion. One more time with feeling.......they're not just voicing their opinions. They're actively working to overturn the law.I don't care if some opt out due to their religious beliefs.....as long as the services are still available to the public. Yes, that's exactly what they SHOULD be doing if they don't agree with the law. That's precisely what you should be doing if you don't agree with laws. That's pretty much what everyone should be doing if they don't agree with laws...trying to actively overturn it. What would YOU suggest people do when they see a law and say "I think that's a terrible law"? And in terms of "I asked you no such thing"...from post #16: " 2. I'm curious if you think Catholic doctors ought to be forced to provide physician-assisted suicides? I'm assuming you're "then don't do it" applies to them as patients, but that you think doctors ought to do it (similar to the purpose of the thread that you think they ought to have to perform all legal medical procedures?)"
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 4, 2019 16:55:17 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it's your choice to live there. It's my choice to live where I don't get enough sunlight to be healthy, it's my choice to live where earthquakes strike that might kill me, it's my choice to live where the ground isn't fertile enough to grow my own food, it's my choice to live somewhere that doesn't have the healthcare options I want. The someone else COULD be hours away. We aren't talking about trees who are tied to a plot of land, we're talking about people who have freedom of choice in where they live. And it is discrimination, in the talk of "where's the line", I think discrimination of a legally protected class draws a pretty specific line (IMO). Whether it's the right one or not...that seems to be the basis of this discussion to a large extent. I do think it's a pretty specific line that COULD be made though (which is separate from how people get around it, look the other way, etc). Assuming everyone has the ability to just up and move is either the height of ignorance, privileged blinders, or fuck the poor attitude. Or any combination thereof.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 4, 2019 16:58:23 GMT -5
I agree hospitals and healthcare should be public, but I read somewhere that the Catholic Church actually invented hospitals, which is why they control so many. (I am Catholic, yet I do not like the Catholic Church in charge of all hospital care in my city. I don't agree with all their rules.) Interesting, but not entirely surprised given how much money and control the church has had in the past. The Catholic church had control over EVERY aspect of public life here, from education to health. It kept people impoverished by imposing punishing tithes and encouraging more children, even if you couldn't afford to feed the ones you had. Then in the 60s, it all came to a head and the people rebelled, leading to the Quiet Revolution. It seemed like overnight, everyone stopped going to church and religion became a dirty word. That's why to this day, cursing in Quebec is centered on church terminology.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 4, 2019 16:59:11 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it's your choice to live there. It's my choice to live where I don't get enough sunlight to be healthy, it's my choice to live where earthquakes strike that might kill me, it's my choice to live where the ground isn't fertile enough to grow my own food, it's my choice to live somewhere that doesn't have the healthcare options I want. The someone else COULD be hours away. We aren't talking about trees who are tied to a plot of land, we're talking about people who have freedom of choice in where they live. And it is discrimination, in the talk of "where's the line", I think discrimination of a legally protected class draws a pretty specific line (IMO). Whether it's the right one or not...that seems to be the basis of this discussion to a large extent. I do think it's a pretty specific line that COULD be made though (which is separate from how people get around it, look the other way, etc). Assuming everyone has the ability to just up and move is either the height of ignorance, privileged blinders, or fuck the poor attitude. Or any combination thereof. So if they don't have the ability, then our destinies are predetermined? Nobody can work to better their situation through hard work and/or good choices? Everyone must be stuck living wherever their grandparents lived I guess. I miss the days when people had free will, and weren't anchored by some cosmic force that refused to allow them to make their own choices in life.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 4, 2019 17:00:29 GMT -5
Their forebears sacrificed what little they had - they had no choice, since it was forcibly extracted in the form of a tithe legalized in the Quebec Act of 1774 - to adorn Quebec with the biggest, most ornate parishes in the New World. But when baby boomers rebelled against the Church's repression and hypocrisy, against the tedious, ritualistic lives and fearful piety of their parents, they didn't ruminate. Church attendance, which stood at more than 90 per cent before 1960, didn't so much collapse as vaporize - at least among those born after 1945. "At a precise moment, during the year 1966 in fact, the churches suddenly emptied in a matter of months. A strange phenomenon that no one has ever been able to explain. www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/neither-practising-nor-believing-but-catholic-even-so/article4329828/
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 4, 2019 17:00:55 GMT -5
Assuming everyone has the ability to just up and move is either the height of ignorance, privileged blinders, or fuck the poor attitude. Or any combination thereof. So if they don't have the ability, then our destinies are predetermined? Nobody can work to better their situation through hard work and/or good choices? Everyone must be stuck living wherever their grandparents lived I guess. I miss the days when people had free will, and weren't anchored by some cosmic force that refused to allow them to make their own choices in life.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 4, 2019 17:03:52 GMT -5
This hits really close to home for me. One of the local private hospitals was swallowed up by Providence Health Care which is catholic around 6 years ago. They have stopped providing some medical care necessary for women... it's really a tragedy. Can you imagine being pregnant with a baby that had 0% chance of survival and being told to go home and wait for it to die, then they'd help you? I can tell you I'd love to be a walking coffin for my fetus because some stupid book tells other people that's all I'm good for. This sort of religious based decision making in medicine needs to STOP. www.thestranger.com/seattle/faith-healers/Content?oid=16050396This is going to impact end of life care too. WA has assisted suicide laws on the books, and Catholic hospitals will not comply. Locally, the only hospital is a Catholic hospital and if you have a terminal disease, you need to go to Seattle for treatment. According to our research (we had a family friend who had ALS and was looking at this option, so did some research for them), if a doctor wants admitting privileges at the only local hospital, he cannot provide means for suicide. Knowing that WA is one of the states where >40% of the hospitals are Catholic affiliates is not a little unsettling. ETA: I am living in the middle of the mess in this article. I am also saddened to see that Providence bought out Swedish, Swedish gave me fabulous treatment when I had my medical nightmare. Hmmm. I know Swedish is still doing physician assisted suicide (or whatever you want to call it) despite being part of Prov.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 4, 2019 17:05:10 GMT -5
This hits really close to home for me. One of the local private hospitals was swallowed up by Providence Health Care which is catholic around 6 years ago. They have stopped providing some medical care necessary for women... it's really a tragedy. Can you imagine being pregnant with a baby that had 0% chance of survival and being told to go home and wait for it to die, then they'd help you? I can tell you I'd love to be a walking coffin for my fetus because some stupid book tells other people that's all I'm good for. This sort of religious based decision making in medicine needs to STOP. www.thestranger.com/seattle/faith-healers/Content?oid=16050396CHI is in trouble here because they have wheeled women out into the hall way while having miscarriages because to intervene is considered against God's will. They have also clearly stated it does not matter what my wishes or DH's wishes are if I am trouble they will sacrifice me for the baby. They also will not honor living wills. I was terrified during my pregnancy that something would happen and I'd be taken to CHI Mercy instead of Methodist. They will terminate doctors for prescribing BC for ANY reason. Gynos were getting around the rules by prescribing it for "medical reasons" so the hospital system cracked down and there are NO exceptions for prescribing BC. They are losing doctors and patients left and right because of this but in a lot of areas, especially rural areas, you are screwed because they own every hospital in town. OTOH- isn't it forcing religious beliefs on the Roman Catholic hospitals if we dictate that they must provide BC pills and decises and sterilization? (I was raised RC and I'm an Episcopalian because I believe in access to reliable BC and sterilizations.)
There are also people who have religious beliefs against vaccinations, doctors who won't treat homosexual/trans patients because it is "against their religion" etc. Where do we draw the line? You are a medical professional, you should provide medical care so long as it does not violate MEDICAL ethics to do so. If your religious beliefs are so precarious that they are threatened by a patient taking birth control or being homosexual or wanting their child vaccinated then don't be a freaking medical professional. I also find this >40% supremely bizarre because WA is so secular and liberal.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 4, 2019 17:06:38 GMT -5
Then you go to a different hospital, or you move. In many areas there are NO hospitals, those people find a way to make it work...not to mention that it opens up a whole opportunity for providers to move in that WILL provide the services. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "public business". To your point about reassigning doctors...what do you do in the cases you reference of limited hospitals/workers...and there's nobody to reassign you to? I guess those patients will either wait to see the doctor, or quit their job, sell their house, uproot their family and move to a new town that has a good hospital. Sounds like a reasonable action for women needing birth control, AMIrite?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 4, 2019 17:11:31 GMT -5
I guess those patients will either wait to see the doctor, or quit their job, sell their house, uproot their family and move to a new town that has a good hospital. Sounds like a reasonable action for women needing birth control, AMIrite? Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Nov 4, 2019 18:19:49 GMT -5
My brother lived in Spain and couldn't get a vasectomy because the country is catholic. He had to fly to Germany to have it done. The three hospitals my boyfriend was in this summer were all catholic but the last one had him fill out a health care directive so maybe they will pull the plug if I asked them too. My insurance covers a good hospital and I think his would too but the medics took him to the local emergency room and they transferred him to their hospitals. Maybe they can limit how many hospitals per county are catholic so we don't all need to move to get care.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 4, 2019 18:30:08 GMT -5
Sounds like a reasonable action for women needing birth control, AMIrite? Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Really? Living in, say, a beautiful mountain town with a Catholic Hospital, but a hefty drive to the next town is considered "poor life choices"? Or maybe, a thriving farming or ranching community, where she owns the local tack shop, and her husband grows the food that feeds you and everyone you love. She gets pregnant easy, but has had many miscarriages and it has interrupted their businesses and broken their hearts and they just can't go through it again. What is bad about those choices? Are the only people who have the proper life choices are people who live in cities?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 4, 2019 18:33:27 GMT -5
Sounds like a reasonable action for women needing birth control, AMIrite? Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Sure, blame the women. Why don't the men make the "not poor choice" to keep their pants on? Too much to expect from them?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 4, 2019 18:36:43 GMT -5
He needed a gender-affirming procedure. The hospital said no. When patients go to the doctor, they expect treatment rooted in the latest medical advancements, not interpretations of the Bible. But as medical facilities continue to close or merge with better-funded institutions, Christian hospitals, which may hew to religious doctrine when making treatment decisions, are becoming a lone source of care for many Americans. Catholic entities currently make up three of the top six largest health care chains; 17 percent of the hospital beds in America are in Catholic facilities, which are growing more rapidly than those of other religious sects and most other hospital chains, especially in rural areas. In states such as Alaska, Washington, and Iowa, more than 40 percent of beds are controlled by Catholic facilities and patients who need help may find that Catholic providers are the only option. www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/10/25/20929539/catholic-hospitals-religious-refusal-rural-health-care-evan-mintonIf you're refused treatment, you can go to another hospital. Oh wait......... And, she notes, if her employer-provided insurance coverage changes, she may not have a choice between the religiously affiliated and secular hospitals in her community. What about the hospital in the next town over where she might seek care if her insurance no longer covered visits to the hospital she uses now? It’s Catholic. How unfortunate that some folks believe it is appropriate to force their religious beliefs on others. How unfortunate that some folks believe it is appropriate to force their religious beliefs on others.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 4, 2019 18:48:54 GMT -5
How unfortunate that some folks believe it is appropriate to force their religious beliefs on others. How unfortunate that some folks believe it is appropriate to force their religious beliefs on others.
Including religious beliefs.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 4, 2019 18:54:34 GMT -5
Any??
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 4, 2019 19:50:47 GMT -5
Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Really? Living in, say, a beautiful mountain town with a Catholic Hospital, but a hefty drive to the next town is considered "poor life choices"? Or maybe, a thriving farming or ranching community, where she owns the local tack shop, and her husband grows the food that feeds you and everyone you love. She gets pregnant easy, but has had many miscarriages and it has interrupted their businesses and broken their hearts and they just can't go through it again. What is bad about those choices? Are the only people who have the proper life choices are people who live in cities? Not just cities. Isn't Missouri or some other state considering shutting down the last abortion provider in the state?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 4, 2019 22:24:39 GMT -5
Really? Living in, say, a beautiful mountain town with a Catholic Hospital, but a hefty drive to the next town is considered "poor life choices"? Or maybe, a thriving farming or ranching community, where she owns the local tack shop, and her husband grows the food that feeds you and everyone you love. She gets pregnant easy, but has had many miscarriages and it has interrupted their businesses and broken their hearts and they just can't go through it again. What is bad about those choices? Are the only people who have the proper life choices are people who live in cities? Not just cities. Isn't Missouri or some other state considering shutting down the last abortion provider in the state? I am not referring to abortion. I am talking about prescription birth control, tubal ligation, vasectomies, and certain protocols during miscarriages. Also, end of life care, like stopping life support in accordance with family wishes or legally documented medical directives about life support. They can just do whatever and claim God told them to.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 5, 2019 7:55:10 GMT -5
Then you go to a different hospital, or you move. In many areas there are NO hospitals, those people find a way to make it work...not to mention that it opens up a whole opportunity for providers to move in that WILL provide the services. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "public business". To your point about reassigning doctors...what do you do in the cases you reference of limited hospitals/workers...and there's nobody to reassign you to? I guess those patients will either wait to see the doctor, or quit their job, sell their house, uproot their family and move to a new town that has a good hospital. And then do it again when the hospital in their new town is acquired by CHI or Ascension.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 5, 2019 8:45:32 GMT -5
Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Really? Living in, say, a beautiful mountain town with a Catholic Hospital, but a hefty drive to the next town is considered "poor life choices"? Or maybe, a thriving farming or ranching community, where she owns the local tack shop, and her husband grows the food that feeds you and everyone you love. She gets pregnant easy, but has had many miscarriages and it has interrupted their businesses and broken their hearts and they just can't go through it again. What is bad about those choices? Are the only people who have the proper life choices are people who live in cities? It's a pretty terrible life choice if you put a ton of value in living in a place without a Catholic Hospital, yes. Whether you are making good or bad life choices depends entirely on what you value. If you value living in a beautiful mountain town and you're willing to deal with having the only hospital be a Catholic one, then you've made a good life choice. Just like for lots of people, living in a place like Oklahoma is a great life choice. But if you're on here saying "You know what's REALLY important to me...I don't ever want to live somewhere that has deadly tornadoes"...well then you've made a pretty bad life choice deciding to live in Oklahoma buddy. Living in a particular place might be a great choice for someone, and a terrible choice for someone else (same for cities really, if you value having lots of choices in healthcare a city might be a great choice, if you value having lots of open space and few neighbors it would be a poor choice), it all depends on what you're valuing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 5, 2019 8:46:49 GMT -5
Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Sure, blame the women. Why don't the men make the "not poor choice" to keep their pants on? Too much to expect from them? Because we were talking about women and birth control? Or do you think men are responsible for women's choices? Seems like you have this inherent belief that women are spectators in their own lives without any agency over it.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 5, 2019 10:45:47 GMT -5
Physician-assisted suicide is legal here, too. You should hear the Canadian Association of Catholic Bishops scream bloody murder and try to put a stop to it. Why can't they mind their own business, or at least their own flock? Why should the Catholic bishops hold any sway over me, an atheist? If they don't agree with doctor-assisted suicide, then don't do it! If I want to do it, what's it to them? Why try to stop me? Meddling busybodies, that's what they are. 1. As to the question of "minding your own business"...if they're citizens of the country then aren't the laws their business? I don't think they should hold any sway over you, but aren't they just as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours? I don't get the impression that if you disagree with laws that your approach is "well none of my business". (FWIW, I think it should be legal, I just don't think people we disagree with should have any less right to speak up). 2. I'm curious if you think Catholic doctors ought to be forced to provide physician-assisted suicides? I'm assuming you're "then don't do it" applies to them as patients, but that you think doctors ought to do it (similar to the purpose of the thread that you think they ought to have to perform all legal medical procedures?)Not all doctors are Catholic. However, if the only local hospital holds admitting privileges hostage, then either you move or you comply. What do you suppose that does to the local population? BTW.....I live where this currently is happening. I live in a city with a population of nearly 90,000, but only one hospital. The next 2 closest hospitals are in the same chain. The closest hospital which would comply is about 110 miles down the road. I live in the community where labs are withholding testing for other reproductive issues, like testing sperm. As this is a time limited test, needing to travel 100 miles in order to get accurate results. Luckily, I have the money and wherewithal to travel for my medical needs. However, end of live issues tend to be both expensive and exhausting. I DID travel these 110 miles every week to 10 days when I was dealing with my medical nightmare. Needing to make this trip was difficult and I had the best of situations.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 5, 2019 11:11:55 GMT -5
Sounds like a reasonable action for women needing birth control, AMIrite? Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. They made "poor choices" by living next to a catholic hospital?? LOL!!! So awesome that you're a doctor and know how different women respond to birth control and can figure it out across the miles. Really quite a talent you have there. You should open a shop!
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 5, 2019 11:12:51 GMT -5
Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. Sure, blame the women. Why don't the men make the "not poor choice" to keep their pants on? Too much to expect from them? Right? Don't men typically complain that women don't put out enough? hahaha. BRB, I'm supergluing my pants on...
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Nov 5, 2019 11:14:15 GMT -5
I guess I should move out of the metropolis that is Seattle. Such poor life choices! I need to move into a planned parenthood, apparently.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 5, 2019 11:16:04 GMT -5
So who's got the link to the twitter feed about how 100% of unwanted pregnancies are the men's fault?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 5, 2019 11:17:22 GMT -5
Seems like if the women have made such poor choices to find themselves in that situation in the first place, then they can probably make do with other forms of birth control that aren't medically prescribed while they figure out bigger issues in their life. They made "poor choices" by living next to a catholic hospital?? LOL!!! So awesome that you're a doctor and know how different women respond to birth control and can figure it out across the miles. Really quite a talent you have there. You should open a shop! If they hold a major issue about not living next to catholic hospitals, then yeah, it's a pretty terrible life choice to live next to a catholic hospital. Would you consider it a GOOD life choice if someone said "I place a lot of value in not living next to a Catholic hospital, so I chose to live next to a Catholic hospital". If you make choices that put you in positions you are highly against...yeah, that's a pretty awful life choice on your part.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 5, 2019 11:19:15 GMT -5
Sure, blame the women. Why don't the men make the "not poor choice" to keep their pants on? Too much to expect from them? Right? Don't men typically complain that women don't put out enough? hahaha. BRB, I'm supergluing my pants on... I don't remember seeing an issue in this thread of "men want fewer pregnancies"...we're discussing women and their access to healthcare/birth control. Who should be responsible for making sure that women who want birth control can get it? Is your answer honestly "men"? Maybe I'm the oddball here thinking women should be responsible for themselves, instead of relying on men to make decisions on their behalf.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Nov 5, 2019 11:19:22 GMT -5
They made "poor choices" by living next to a catholic hospital?? LOL!!! So awesome that you're a doctor and know how different women respond to birth control and can figure it out across the miles. Really quite a talent you have there. You should open a shop! If they hold a major issue about not living next to catholic hospitals, then yeah, it's a pretty terrible life choice to live next to a catholic hospital. Would you consider it a GOOD life choice if someone said "I place a lot of value in not living next to a Catholic hospital, so I chose to live next to a Catholic hospital". If you make choices that put you in positions you are highly against...yeah, that's a pretty awful life choice on your part. So I buy a house by the non Catholic hospital. They get bought out by a Catholic hospital chain. How is that my fault? I singlehandedly have the ability to stop a sale of a hospital?
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