OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 15, 2019 10:36:52 GMT -5
Ok,, did the Black Hebrew Israelites have a problem,,and were vastly condemned for their actions?? I mean shouting racial slurs at the white kids is ok?? What would you reaction be if it had been A group of white people shouting racial slurs at of Black kids that had attended a demonstration??
The Black Hebrews aren't suing anyone for being misrepresented. I've said repeatedly that they were/are wrong and nobody debated it. Nothing to really discuss. So your problem now is He is suing?? First was he had NO right to stand where he was,, now he has NO right to sue??
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 15, 2019 11:56:31 GMT -5
nobody said he had no right to stand where he did or sue. in this particular case, I am not even getting how you got that. laterbloomer didn't say anything about HIM, HIS LAWSUIT, OR HIS RIGHTS in her response. are you getting transmissions from some alien source?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 15, 2019 11:58:49 GMT -5
LOL no, the funny thing about racists is that most of them don't want to proudly admit it. I've said that repeatedly so you saying you think this is my hypothesis is disingenuous. They want to promote the racist ideology and intimidate minorities and women. When the intimidation doesn't work and they get called on it most of them deny it. Those extremists your referred to don't. But many people find it to their financial and social benefit to deny being racists. So you try to be subversive about it. Anyway, it's been fun but I'm done with this conversation....again There is nothing to deny. Trump hasn't done anything that is racist. As far as the hat and maga slogan plenty of black and brown people wear them also. that is an interesting statement. how does one "do" something racist? I think mostly people accuse him of saying racist things.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 15, 2019 12:01:14 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion ridicule is neither debate nor discussion. It's the refuge of a fool that has no valid argument. I wish Horatio was here, he could tell me the name of that argument technique where you take the comment to ridiculous ends were never suggested. reducio ad absurdum
reduced to absurdity
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 15, 2019 12:56:22 GMT -5
The Black Hebrews aren't suing anyone for being misrepresented. I've said repeatedly that they were/are wrong and nobody debated it. Nothing to really discuss. So your problem now is He is suing?? First was he had NO right to stand where he was,, now he has NO right to sue??
LOL he has every right to do those things. But he's not free from the consequences of deciding to do those things, which includes being identified as an asshole and called a bullshitter. ETA - And that brings us back to the privilege that some white guys are so pissed about losing. There was a time no one would have dared called them out on it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 15, 2019 13:53:43 GMT -5
Ah. Now we're getting more reasonable. To summarize the above: 'MAGA' stands for the panoply of Pres. Trump's views/actions, with 'some racist beliefs and actions' among them. Hat wearers may not see these particular beliefs/actions as racism, may not consider them part of what the hat represents, or even be aware of them. But many Americans (in particular, the left) do include them, and hat wearers ought to be taken to task for disregarding this fact or being ignorant of it. Again I point out that this is the exact opposite of the argument you were making in the Kaepernick thread. "Yes, taking a knee can mean 'I refuse to stand and respect the flag'," you said (paraphrasing), "...and yes, millions of Americans are interpreting it this way. But taking a knee can also symbolize x, y, and z, and look, Mr. Kaepernick himself claims it means x. How unreasonable, then, that the right is refusing to acknowledge the symbolism he's claiming, instead believing it means disrespect for the flag and the nation."
Hence you've got to make up your mind. If a gesture or an article of clothing has a panoply of potential meanings, some of them offensive to large groups of people, then who decides what the true symbolism of the thing is: the user(s) or the large group taking offense? Who is the ultimate authority on whether the thing is inappropriate and deserving of public excoriation? Just as importantly, if your answer to the above questions is "the large group taking offense": what qualifications (if any) does the large group require for its interpretation of the symbolism to carry weight, and what basis in evidence (if any) must they offer to justify their stance that the thing is tainted, inappropriate, and deserving of public excoriation?
I would take issue with your paraphrase. I doubt I truly legitimized the contention that taking a knee was disrespectful to the flag. I certainly did not accept the idea that it was disrespectful to the military, as so many tried to contend. Remember the facts. First, Kaepernick sought ZERO publicity. The whole issue only came to light when a reporter noticed and asked him about it. Recall also that even that was after the THIRD week in which Kaepernick had refused to stand. The entire "taking a knee" instead of sitting was after a talk with former Green Beret and Seattle Seahawk Nate Boyer in which Boyer convinced him that taking a knee was a more respectful compromise. Kaepernick agreed because it was not his intent to disrespect the flag or the military and he did not want his actions misconstrued. His was a personal protest in his own mind. He would have been just fine if it had never become an issue, and indeed would still have a football career rather than being a pariah. I say that as someone who was never a Kaepernick fan. He played for the San Francisco 49'ers, a division rival of the Seattle Seahawks. His image was the antithesis of 'Hawks QB Russell Wilson, who is seemingly as close as one can come to the all-American boy. And, because the Seahawks routinely pummeled the 49'ers, I saw him play probably three of the four worst games of his career. I never liked him. As a football player I still don't like him. As someone who has been tortured by troubles not really of his own making, he has suffered those slings and arrows better than most would be capable of doing. And he has proven himself far more of a man than the mindless morons who latched onto the opportunistic rantings of the president. My contention in Kaepernick's case was that the flag (or more correctly the anthem) was the wrong target. The anthem is a national symbol, and the issue of justice for people of color is for the most part a local issue in some parts of the country. The federal government itself, at least until this current administration, has been on the side of equal treatment. On Kaepernick's side. Understood. I apologize if I misconstrued your position on Mr. Kaepernick. Let's posit the following: through careful scrutiny of Mr. Kaepernick's actions and stated motives, you're of the reasonable belief that his taking a knee isn't disrespectful to the flag. I think it's also safe to assume you don't believe Mr. Kaepernick should be harassed, chided as an America-hater, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of his protest--correct me if I'm wrong.
Even so, millions of other Americans reached different conclusions about his gesture, and most of these clearly don't care about his stated motive or mitigating actions. To them, the gesture is inherently disrespectful and Mr. Kaepernick's motives (these also being suspect) are irrelevant. His continuing to employ the gesture long after these presentiments were known were what caused the furor. In essence, he was saying, "I don't care what you think taking a knee stands for, I say it stands for justice, etc., and I won't be pressured into giving it up." In this thread, you're soundly rejecting this same rationale. You're the one arguing that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful, and that the specific motives or actions of anyone wearing one are irrelevant.
Given the conspicuous lack of evidence supporting the "red hat = endorsement of racism" hypothesis, the preponderance of alternative theories, and the absurd reasoning needed to explain a host of inconsistent behaviours in red hat wearers, I fail to see why your assessment in the Kaepernick thread isn't equally applicable here. Specifically, that 1) any given red hat wearer is essentially saying, "I don't care what you think the hat stands for, I say it stands for e.g. giving power back to the people and I won't be pressured into giving it up.", and 2) nobody should be harassed, chided as a racist, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of simply wearing the hat. You've got to pick one: either you were right in the Kaepernick thread, and intent + personal significance take precedence over public perception, or you're right in this thread, and public perception trumps intent + personal significance. But you can't have it both ways.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 15, 2019 14:01:50 GMT -5
So your problem now is He is suing?? First was he had NO right to stand where he was,, now he has NO right to sue??
LOL he has every right to do those things. But he's not free from the consequences of deciding to do those things, which includes being identified as an asshole and called a bullshitter. ETA - And that brings us back to the privilege that some white guys are so pissed about losing. There was a time no one would have dared called them out on it. This. Nail. On. Head.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 15, 2019 14:22:57 GMT -5
Nope, there was an ulterior motive to claiming he was shitting on the flag. That time the racists were hiding behind patriotism because everyone, well every American, jumps up to defend the flag. Kaepernick was clear that he was protesting police brutality against black people and many people don't want to change that but they don't want to deal with the consequences of saying it out loud. Pay attention, it's all about racists trying hard not to take responsibility for their behavior.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 15, 2019 16:19:10 GMT -5
Nope, there was an ulterior motive to claiming he was shitting on the flag. That time the racists were hiding behind patriotism because everyone, well every American, jumps up to defend the flag. Kaepernick was clear that he was protesting police brutality against black people and many people don't want to change that but they don't want to deal with the consequences of saying it out loud. Pay attention, it's all about racists trying hard not to take responsibility for their behavior. Racism, racism everywhere! You say you're a racist, you're a racist. You say you're not a racist, you're a racist. You say "The hat means what I says it means." Nope. You're a racist. You say "Taking a knee doesn't mean what he says it means." Wrong again. You're a racist.
Voted for Pres. Trump? Racist. Think 'white privilege' is a crock? Racist. Don't want memorials torn down? Racist. Want the border sealed? Racist. What proof do I have of your racism? None. Nada. Zip. My feelings. My gut sense. My intuition. My supreme objectivity. My omniscience. My ability to stare deep into everyone's racist soul and divine their dirty racist intentions.
You can cry reductio ad absurdum all you want, but there's no reduction going on here. These are your actual absurd arguments, writ large.
Now I'm wondering, very really, if you consider Anonymous and me racists because we're debating you in this thread. You seem that far gone.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 15, 2019 17:48:11 GMT -5
I would take issue with your paraphrase. I doubt I truly legitimized the contention that taking a knee was disrespectful to the flag. I certainly did not accept the idea that it was disrespectful to the military, as so many tried to contend. Remember the facts. First, Kaepernick sought ZERO publicity. The whole issue only came to light when a reporter noticed and asked him about it. Recall also that even that was after the THIRD week in which Kaepernick had refused to stand. The entire "taking a knee" instead of sitting was after a talk with former Green Beret and Seattle Seahawk Nate Boyer in which Boyer convinced him that taking a knee was a more respectful compromise. Kaepernick agreed because it was not his intent to disrespect the flag or the military and he did not want his actions misconstrued. His was a personal protest in his own mind. He would have been just fine if it had never become an issue, and indeed would still have a football career rather than being a pariah. I say that as someone who was never a Kaepernick fan. He played for the San Francisco 49'ers, a division rival of the Seattle Seahawks. His image was the antithesis of 'Hawks QB Russell Wilson, who is seemingly as close as one can come to the all-American boy. And, because the Seahawks routinely pummeled the 49'ers, I saw him play probably three of the four worst games of his career. I never liked him. As a football player I still don't like him. As someone who has been tortured by troubles not really of his own making, he has suffered those slings and arrows better than most would be capable of doing. And he has proven himself far more of a man than the mindless morons who latched onto the opportunistic rantings of the president. My contention in Kaepernick's case was that the flag (or more correctly the anthem) was the wrong target. The anthem is a national symbol, and the issue of justice for people of color is for the most part a local issue in some parts of the country. The federal government itself, at least until this current administration, has been on the side of equal treatment. On Kaepernick's side. Understood. I apologize if I misconstrued your position on Mr. Kaepernick. Let's posit the following: through careful scrutiny of Mr. Kaepernick's actions and stated motives, you're of the reasonable belief that his taking a knee isn't disrespectful to the flag. I think it's also safe to assume you don't believe Mr. Kaepernick should be harassed, chided as an America-hater, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of his protest--correct me if I'm wrong.
Even so, millions of other Americans reached different conclusions about his gesture, and most of these clearly don't care about his stated motive or mitigating actions. To them, the gesture is inherently disrespectful and Mr. Kaepernick's motives (these also being suspect) are irrelevant. His continuing to employ the gesture long after these presentiments were known were what caused the furor. In essence, he was saying, "I don't care what you think taking a knee stands for, I say it stands for justice, etc., and I won't be pressured into giving it up." In this thread, you're soundly rejecting this same rationale. You're the one arguing that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful, and that the specific motives or actions of anyone wearing one are irrelevant.
Given the conspicuous lack of evidence supporting the "red hat = endorsement of racism" hypothesis, the preponderance of alternative theories, and the absurd reasoning needed to explain a host of inconsistent behaviours in red hat wearers, I fail to see why your assessment in the Kaepernick thread isn't equally applicable here. Specifically, that 1) any given red hat wearer is essentially saying, "I don't care what you think the hat stands for, I say it stands for e.g. giving power back to the people and I won't be pressured into giving it up.", and 2) nobody should be harassed, chided as a racist, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of simply wearing the hat. You've got to pick one: either you were right in the Kaepernick thread, and intent + personal significance take precedence over public perception, or you're right in this thread, and public perception trumps intent + personal significance. But you can't have it both ways.
First, no I do not believe he was disrespecting the flag, nor do I think the resulting treatment of him was proper. The only real reason that harassment took on a life of its own was because the biggest liar in American political history thought he could rile up his base by doing so, and they fell in line behind him like so many Hamelinian children. It is easy to cry "patriotism" but true patriotism lies not in blindly accepting everything your country does but instead in being willing to criticize in an attempt to make it better. The issue that Mr. Kaepernick ultimately sought to bring attention to is a very valid one and needs the light shined onto it. Second, have I really argued that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful? You may have to point that out. At worst I suggested that they were willfully ignorant of the full meaning. Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it. Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Does everybody see that? Probably not. Would they admit it if they did? Again, probably not. Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not. There is no inconsistency here. If you want to look at what a MAGA hat stands for, do not look to the wearer to define it. Look to Donald Trump. His statements are all right out there to read, and his actions all right there to see. If people accept that, they will wear the hat. If they don't, they won't.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 15, 2019 18:00:01 GMT -5
Nope, there was an ulterior motive to claiming he was shitting on the flag. That time the racists were hiding behind patriotism because everyone, well every American, jumps up to defend the flag. Kaepernick was clear that he was protesting police brutality against black people and many people don't want to change that but they don't want to deal with the consequences of saying it out loud. Pay attention, it's all about racists trying hard not to take responsibility for their behavior. Racism, racism everywhere! You say you're a racist, you're a racist. You say you're not a racist, you're a racist. You say "The hat means what I says it means." Nope. You're a racist. You say "Taking a knee doesn't mean what he says it means." Wrong again. You're a racist.
Voted for Pres. Trump? Racist. Think 'white privilege' is a crock? Racist. Don't want memorials torn down? Racist. Want the border sealed? Racist. What proof do I have of your racism? None. Nada. Zip. My feelings. My gut sense. My intuition. My supreme objectivity. My omniscience. My ability to stare deep into everyone's racist soul and divine their dirty racist intentions.
You can cry reductio ad absurdum all you want, but there's no reduction going on here. These are your actual absurd arguments, writ large.
Now I'm wondering, very really, if you consider Anonymous and me racists because we're debating you in this thread. You seem that far gone.
with some rewording I have said and believe everything on that list. The place you go stupid is when you say there is no proof. The proof has been explained to you often and in great detail. As for you and Anonymous, I think you are a couple of white guys that don't like the idea of losing your privilege. I don't think Anonymous really understands how much he has benefitted from it throughout his life. You on the other hand have chosen a Christian/Conservative belief system that promotes your privilege. I've known that about you for a very long time, this thread just confirms it again.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 15, 2019 19:35:31 GMT -5
Second, have I really argued that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful? You don't believe 'significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism' are inherently disrespectful? You don't believe inexcusable ignorance of these elements is inherently disrespectful? I guess there's no problem then. Or there wouldn't be if you didn't immediately void the above with...
Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it. Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Does everybody see that? Probably not. Would they admit it if they did? Again, probably not. Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not. I take exception to two statements here. Firstly, "Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it." 1. You posit this as fact, but there's no evidence to support it, especially when generalizing to millions of people. 2. Even if you could prove this, racism might well be one of the things omitted from the 'vast majority'. Secondly, "Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not.". This is the linchpin of your entire post. You're saying that not only are you unwilling to give any hat wearer the benefit of the doubt, you're actually going to behave in a way consistent with this presumption. How is this not your endorsement for strangers getting in their faces about racism, ignorance, or both?
Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Insofar as I'm aware, the worst of Pres. Trump's 'racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism' is a collection of four one-line racially-insensitive remarks (three of them pre-presidency), racial preferences while hiring (pragmatism based on prejudice), his stark dislike of Islam (plain vanilla nationalism), and his border policy. Even if we label all of these things 'racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism', it's not like his supporters have to ignore his chumming around with Bill Aye- I mean David Duke, or endorsing a 32-page pro-communi- I mean pro-white-power manifesto. You know... things more substantive than offhanded remarks.
As for you and Anonymous, I think you are a couple of white guys that don't like the idea of losing your privilege. I don't think Anonymous really understands how much he has benefitted from it throughout his life. You on the other hand have chosen a Christian/Conservative belief system that promotes your privilege. I've known that about you for a very long time, this thread just confirms it again. As best I can tell, what you call "privilege" is treating other people with respect and decency, holding all men accountable to the same standards, showing no partiality either for or against, regardless of race, and expecting respect and decency in return. Hence yes, I love me some privilege.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 15, 2019 20:04:38 GMT -5
I fixed that for you to more accurately reflect the ethics you have promoted on this board for years.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 15, 2019 20:46:10 GMT -5
Second, have I really argued that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful? You don't believe 'significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism' are inherently disrespectful? You don't believe inexcusable ignorance of these elements is inherently disrespectful? I guess there's no problem then. Or there wouldn't be if you didn't immediately void the above with...
Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it. Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Does everybody see that? Probably not. Would they admit it if they did? Again, probably not. Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not. I take exception to two statements here. Firstly, "Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it." 1. You posit this as fact, but there's no evidence to support it, especially when generalizing to millions of people. 2. Even if you could prove this, racism might well be one of the things omitted from the 'vast majority'. Secondly, "Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not.". This is the linchpin of your entire post. You're saying that not only are you unwilling to give any hat wearer the benefit of the doubt, you're actually going to behave in a way consistent with this presumption. How is this not your endorsement for strangers getting in their faces about racism, ignorance, or both?
Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Insofar as I'm aware, the worst of Pres. Trump's 'racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism' is a collection of four one-line racially-insensitive remarks (three of them pre-presidency), racial preferences while hiring (pragmatism based on prejudice), his stark dislike of Islam (plain vanilla nationalism), and his border policy. Even if we label all of these things 'racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism', it's not like his supporters have to ignore his chumming around with Bill Aye- I mean David Duke, or endorsing a 32-page pro-communi- I mean pro-white-power manifesto. You know... things more substantive than offhanded remarks.
As for you and Anonymous, I think you are a couple of white guys that don't like the idea of losing your privilege. I don't think Anonymous really understands how much he has benefitted from it throughout his life. You on the other hand have chosen a Christian/Conservative belief system that promotes your privilege. I've known that about you for a very long time, this thread just confirms it again. As best I can tell, what you call "privilege" is treating other people with respect and decency, holding all men accountable to the same standards, showing no partiality either for or against, regardless of race, and expecting respect and decency in return. Hence yes, I love me some privilege. You seem to have difficulty with nuance. Not everything is black-and-white. I already stated that not everybody sees or recognizes the racism and un-American sentiments inherent in "Trumpism" which negates about half your post. Should they see it? Probably, so if I am going to call out those people I would not do it on the basis of their denial of racism. I don't know that about them, whether they are or not unless I have more information to go on. I would be justified should I choose in going after their lack of critical thinking. If someone supports this president enough to wear a MAGA hat and has not yet examined or determined what this president stands for and what his words and deeds actually say the argument could be made that they are too stupid to deserve a vote. Racism and stupidity may be correlated, but it is not an exact correlation. Then of course there are those who do know what this president stands for and support him anyway. Not much to say in their favor.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 15, 2019 20:56:49 GMT -5
It is a fact. That is exactly what the hat is about. I mean that is why they were actually created in the first place. To show you are a Trump/Trump ideology supporter. It's a CAMPAIGN hat. People that oppose Trump and his policies do NOT wear MAGA hats.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Mar 15, 2019 21:24:37 GMT -5
Maga hat, coffee jugs, thermo cup, shirt I've got them all. Not a racist bone in my body
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 15, 2019 21:25:25 GMT -5
Maga hat, coffee jugs, thermo cup, shirt I've got them all. Not a racist bone in my body You buy racist shit. And brag about it. nuff said.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Mar 15, 2019 21:47:00 GMT -5
Maga hat, coffee jugs, thermo cup, shirt I've got them all. Not a racist bone in my body You buy racist shit. And brag about it. nuff said. you don't have a clue
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 15, 2019 21:51:43 GMT -5
You buy racist shit. And brag about it. nuff said. you don't have a clue If you buy all that Trump crap, YOU don't have a clue.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 15, 2019 22:13:08 GMT -5
Trump is denying that White Nationalism is on the rise, despite evidence that it has moved from the fringes to the mainstream. Well, what do expect from an asshole who says there are fine people on both sides?
Dumbass
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 15, 2019 22:39:09 GMT -5
You buy racist shit. And brag about it. nuff said. you don't have a clue Oh, I think it’s pretty obvious who doesn’t have a clue .....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 15, 2019 22:49:02 GMT -5
I fixed that for you to more accurately reflect the ethics you have promoted on this board for years.
And yet you'll fail to come up with a single example of my arguing for different treatment of whites and blacks, holding women and people of colour to higher standards, showing partiality both for and against people based on race, or insulting anyone who criticizes me of the same (unless you call deriding the absurdity of a person's arguments in a debate forum "insulting them"). I take a lot of heat for it, but I put effort into remembering members' positions, perusing the archives to research what I can't clearly remember, and posting links and citations when taking people to task on "the ethics [they] have promoted on this board for years". Why? Because it's the easiest thing in the world to claim a person believes x, y, and z, when you don't have to provide any evidence to back up your assertion. That also goes for the symbolism of hats, incidentally.
You seem to have difficulty with nuance. Not everything is black-and-white. I already stated that not everybody sees or recognizes the racism and un-American sentiments inherent in "Trumpism" which negates about half your post. Should they see it? Probably, so if I am going to call out those people I would not do it on the basis of their denial of racism. I don't know that about them, whether they are or not unless I have more information to go on. Fine. Good. Full stop there, and we're agreed. At long last. They said it couldn't happen!
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 16, 2019 9:50:13 GMT -5
There have been multiple examples of it just in this thread. You always have some convoluted reason why the point you are making is not about discrimination, but strangely that is often the result of what you are promoting. And you are like Trump, when facts are pointed out to you that you don't like you just shout "Fake news". Or ignore it. Like you just did when I pointed out that MAGA hats were specifically created to show support of Trump and his policies. I know you are never going to admit this. I'm just saying it so you know I know. And others know I know.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 16, 2019 9:51:44 GMT -5
Which you then distort and misrepresent. Look at what you have done with me just on this thread. Just so you know, many of us see and don't buy it.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Mar 16, 2019 11:43:57 GMT -5
Oh, I think it’s pretty obvious who doesn’t have a clue ..... yea that means alot what you think, what you perceive is in you own world. You really don't have a clue about me. I have a question for you if wearing, owning MAGA material is racist, what would that mean to all the people of color who own and wear such items?
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laterbloomer
Senior Member
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 16, 2019 15:25:49 GMT -5
Maga hat, coffee jugs, thermo cup, shirt I've got them all. Not a racist bone in my body
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 16, 2019 17:04:29 GMT -5
Oh, later...
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 16, 2019 20:51:58 GMT -5
There have been multiple examples of it just in this thread. You always have some convoluted reason why the point you are making is not about discrimination, but strangely that is often the result of what you are promoting. And you are like Trump, when facts are pointed out to you that you don't like you just shout "Fake news". Or ignore it. Like you just did when I pointed out that MAGA hats were specifically created to show support of Trump and his policies. I know you are never going to admit this. I'm just saying it so you know I know. And others know I know. Briefly: - What you call "some convoluted reason" is reasonable defense of my arguments and fair prosecution of yours.
- Re "When facts are pointed out to you that you don't like you just shout 'Fake news'.": I'm certainly skeptical when members proffer their baseless opinions as facts and, when asked for supporting evidence, simply proffer more baseless opinions.
- Re "I pointed out that MAGA hats were specifically created to show support of Trump and his policies.": I ignored it because a) it's an identical argument to the one Tall makes in Reply #189, which I promptly addressed in Reply #191, b) I don't concede that any of Pres. Trump's policies are racist (nationalist, yes; and anti-Islamic in the case of the travel ban), and c) it's frankly absurd to think that every single person wearing the hat supports every last doctrine and policy Pres. Trump has ever put forward. Even spending a month on our own board with a handful of supporters is sufficient to disprove this beyond all doubt.
I think it would be fair to say that wearing the MAGA hat--assuming the wearer didn't just pick it up as a souvenir--denotes general (not across-the-board, but general) support for Pres. Trump and his policies, support for the GOP, or belief in American exceptionalism, although possibly only insofar as the wearer believes Pres. Trump is better qualified than the Democratic alternative. More recently, it also seems likely people are wearing them for no reason other than to rebuff hat critics, who they consider bullies.
- Re "I'm just saying it so you know I know. And others know I know." Well now you know I know you know. And I know others know you know I know you know.
To summarize: After deriding my "ethics you have promoted on this board for years", the only supporting example you can procure from 9+ years is "multiple examples of it just in this thread", which you also don't cite, don't even attempt to demonstrate as "arguing for different treatment of whites and blacks, holding women and people of colour to higher standards, showing partiality both for and against people based on race, or insulting anyone who criticizes me of the same", and plainly refers to my refusal to agree with you solely based on your baseless and spurious-to-the-point-of-absurdity personal ideology on what constitutes racism.
You also ignored my requests in Reply #159 and #163, despite replying to the former. Although it occurs to me now you may actually consider your second volley of opinions in Reply #194 to be "evidence" and "a methodology" (as requested in #159), meaning you lack even the capacity to differentiate between opinions and evidence, suggesting that now is probably the best time for me to tip my hat to you and seek out somebody not lacking this capacity. It is heartening to know you're not out there, dressed in a black hoodie and balaclava, baseball hat in hand, beating the white privilege out of legions of "racists" as they eat their french fries wearing their MAGA hats. Not everybody is so reasonable.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 16, 2019 22:00:56 GMT -5
Racism, racism everywhere! You say you're a racist, you're a racist. You say you're not a racist, you're a racist. You say "The hat means what I says it means." Nope. You're a racist. You say "Taking a knee doesn't mean what he says it means." Wrong again. You're a racist.
Voted for Pres. Trump? Racist. Think 'white privilege' is a crock? Racist. Don't want memorials torn down? Racist. Want the border sealed? Racist. What proof do I have of your racism? None. Nada. Zip. My feelings. My gut sense. My intuition. My supreme objectivity. My omniscience. My ability to stare deep into everyone's racist soul and divine their dirty racist intentions.
You can cry reductio ad absurdum all you want, but there's no reduction going on here. These are your actual absurd arguments, writ large.
Now I'm wondering, very really, if you consider Anonymous and me racists because we're debating you in this thread. You seem that far gone.
with some rewording I have said and believe everything on that list. The place you go stupid is when you say there is no proof. The proof has been explained to you often and in great detail. As for you and Anonymous, I think you are a couple of white guys that don't like the idea of losing your privilege. I don't think Anonymous really understands how much he has benefitted from it throughout his life. You on the other hand have chosen a Christian/Conservative belief system that promotes your privilege. I've known that about you for a very long time, this thread just confirms it again. Don't forget the male privilege! The military draft, that sent how many of us Privileged males to Vietnam!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 16, 2019 22:07:50 GMT -5
Understood. I apologize if I misconstrued your position on Mr. Kaepernick. Let's posit the following: through careful scrutiny of Mr. Kaepernick's actions and stated motives, you're of the reasonable belief that his taking a knee isn't disrespectful to the flag. I think it's also safe to assume you don't believe Mr. Kaepernick should be harassed, chided as an America-hater, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of his protest--correct me if I'm wrong.
Even so, millions of other Americans reached different conclusions about his gesture, and most of these clearly don't care about his stated motive or mitigating actions. To them, the gesture is inherently disrespectful and Mr. Kaepernick's motives (these also being suspect) are irrelevant. His continuing to employ the gesture long after these presentiments were known were what caused the furor. In essence, he was saying, "I don't care what you think taking a knee stands for, I say it stands for justice, etc., and I won't be pressured into giving it up." In this thread, you're soundly rejecting this same rationale. You're the one arguing that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful, and that the specific motives or actions of anyone wearing one are irrelevant.
Given the conspicuous lack of evidence supporting the "red hat = endorsement of racism" hypothesis, the preponderance of alternative theories, and the absurd reasoning needed to explain a host of inconsistent behaviours in red hat wearers, I fail to see why your assessment in the Kaepernick thread isn't equally applicable here. Specifically, that 1) any given red hat wearer is essentially saying, "I don't care what you think the hat stands for, I say it stands for e.g. giving power back to the people and I won't be pressured into giving it up.", and 2) nobody should be harassed, chided as a racist, called an "entitled prick", etc. on account of simply wearing the hat. You've got to pick one: either you were right in the Kaepernick thread, and intent + personal significance take precedence over public perception, or you're right in this thread, and public perception trumps intent + personal significance. But you can't have it both ways.
First, no I do not believe he was disrespecting the flag, nor do I think the resulting treatment of him was proper. The only real reason that harassment took on a life of its own was because the biggest liar in American political history thought he could rile up his base by doing so, and they fell in line behind him like so many Hamelinian children. It is easy to cry "patriotism" but true patriotism lies not in blindly accepting everything your country does but instead in being willing to criticize in an attempt to make it better. The issue that Mr. Kaepernick ultimately sought to bring attention to is a very valid one and needs the light shined onto it. Second, have I really argued that wearing a red hat is inherently disrespectful? You may have to point that out. At worst I suggested that they were willfully ignorant of the full meaning. Wearing the hat indicates an acceptance of the Trump ideology, or at least the vast majority of it. Are there significant elements of racism and white nationalism or even white supremacism in it? Absolutely. Does everybody see that? Probably not. Would they admit it if they did? Again, probably not. Should their ignorance be excused? Probably not. There is no inconsistency here. If you want to look at what a MAGA hat stands for, do not look to the wearer to define it. Look to Donald Trump. His statements are all right out there to read, and his actions all right there to see. If people accept that, they will wear the hat. If they don't, they won't. Here is exactly what says, Make America Great Again,, Exactly that! No where does it say Make American a Racist Nation
Reading difficulty?? or just a comprehension problem??
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