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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 13:31:51 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Mar 13, 2019 13:52:32 GMT -5
I'm not advocating that any specific group of people shouldn't have kids but if you start off on the lower end of the economic spectrum it's already that much harder for you to work your way up. Having kids is only going to make it much less likely that you move up that ladder especially for people who start having kids earlier in life when they're less financially stable. When I worked at a grocery store I saw people of all races come in on WIC or food stamps where mom had 2-3 kids with her and she was pregnant. I just don't know what the thought process is for someone like that to have more kids. I'm not saying those are bad parents they could be great loving parents who drive their kids to succeed but financially they're already getting help and having another kid would just lead to them needing more.
As far as the college thing goes that's a money thing not a rich white thing because I guarantee you if any non caucasian wanted to do that they weren't turned away. 99.99% of us regardless of the color of our skin aren't in a position where we're getting into college because our parents pull strings or throw money at an illegal scheme to get us in. I'll take my mom who pushed me to do the best I could and instilled a sense of work ethic in me over any of the people getting arrested for spending hundreds of thousands just to get their kid into a college some didn't even care about going to.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 13, 2019 14:08:19 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. Being born poor doesn't make one a bad parent. Choosing not to take advantage of the numerous opportunities to make something of yourself before having kids is often highly correlated with laziness and a lack of common sense. Good parents generally aren't lazy or lacking in common sense.
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Mar 13, 2019 14:21:44 GMT -5
I posted this in political but some don't venture over there...https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/6/18249290/child-poverty-american-family-act-sherrod-brown-michael-bennet
from the article "The American Family Act of 2019 would dramatically expand the child tax credit (CTC), which currently offers up to $2,000 a year for families with significant earnings but little or nothing for many poor people. It would pay:
$3,000 per year, or $250 per month, per child ages 6 to 16
$3,600 per year, or $300 per month, per child ages 0 to 5
The benefits would be distributed monthly, in advance, so families could pace out their spending and smooth their incomes. Because the CTC, like the earned income tax credit, is currently paid out through tax refunds, it sometimes leads to a perverse situation in which families use it to pay down debt they never would’ve had to incur if they’d gotten the money earlier.
The credits would phase out for high-income individuals, just like the child tax credit today does, with a gradual phaseout beginning at $130,000 a year in income for single parents and $180,000 for married couples. This is a change from the original version of the bill unveiled in late 2017, which would’ve had the credit phaseout for people making much less (for singles, the phaseout would have started at $75,000 a year)."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 14:34:46 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. Being born poor doesn't make one a bad parent. Choosing not to take advantage of the numerous opportunities to make something of yourself before having kids is often highly correlated with laziness and a lack of common sense. Good parents generally aren't lazy or lacking in common sense. There are lots of reasons people are poor. Lazy and lacking in common sense are not the only ones.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Mar 13, 2019 15:20:34 GMT -5
I posted this in political but some don't venture over there...https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/6/18249290/child-poverty-american-family-act-sherrod-brown-michael-bennet from the article "The American Family Act of 2019 would dramatically expand the child tax credit (CTC), which currently offers up to $2,000 a year for families with significant earnings but little or nothing for many poor people. It would pay: $3,000 per year, or $250 per month, per child ages 6 to 16 $3,600 per year, or $300 per month, per child ages 0 to 5 The benefits would be distributed monthly, in advance, so families could pace out their spending and smooth their incomes. Because the CTC, like the earned income tax credit, is currently paid out through tax refunds, it sometimes leads to a perverse situation in which families use it to pay down debt they never would’ve had to incur if they’d gotten the money earlier. The credits would phase out for high-income individuals, just like the child tax credit today does, with a gradual phaseout beginning at $130,000 a year in income for single parents and $180,000 for married couples. This is a change from the original version of the bill unveiled in late 2017, which would’ve had the credit phaseout for people making much less (for singles, the phaseout would have started at $75,000 a year)." Holy crap! That would be like an extra 12K/year bonus for us, running about 13-14% of our gross income. Probably closer to 20% when you get to AGI numbers. We could finally take the kids the Europe for a month or so like I wanted after a couple years of getting that money!
ETA: I haven't priced out flights and what not, but I'm assuming 24K could allow for a nice month long stay there.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 13, 2019 17:29:25 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. If you’ve got good parents then you’re in a situation to care for them. Good parents don’t breed them if they can’t feed them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 18:23:15 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. If you’ve got good parents then you’re in a situation to care for them. Good parents don’t breed them if they can’t feed them. Oh yes, I forgot. This is YM where everyone has their lives 100% planned out and don't make mistakes. Nobody dies, nobody gets sick, nobody loses their jobs, nobody divorces. Just a bunch of perfect parents.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 13, 2019 18:47:56 GMT -5
I don't think the poor are necessarily bad or lazy. Just that they shouldn't be encouraged to reproduce more than they already are.
The poor can be some of the hardest working people out there. They also can be the ones with the biggest problems. Perhaps less than average intelligence, perhaps impulse control problems, or mental problems, or addiction, or maybe they simply need more time and breathing room to get on their feet. Even that last scenario is made much more challenging with more breeding mixed in. It seems like the current mix of programs incentivises them to have even more kids instead of training and working their way up to stable self-sufficiency first.
I think we need to encourage more breeding among the already stable and self-sufficient.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Mar 13, 2019 18:51:48 GMT -5
But people breed.
Does the upper class breed?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 13, 2019 18:59:41 GMT -5
But people breed. Does the upper class breed? Of course
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 13, 2019 19:07:08 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 13, 2019 19:15:38 GMT -5
Or they just screw around and get knocked up. Oh well, taxpayers will take care of it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 13, 2019 19:16:11 GMT -5
But people breed. Does the upper class breed? Obviously not like the lower class does.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Mar 13, 2019 19:28:57 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family. I find it extremely offensive. Hence, my comments. And I don't have children. That isn't how I refer to my fellow human beings.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 13, 2019 19:34:56 GMT -5
Some people choose to have a family. Others just have it “happen.”
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 13, 2019 19:39:17 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family. I find it extremely offensive. Hence, my comments. And I don't have children. That isn't how I refer to my fellow human beings. Well, or was the upper class that used to use the term for themselves. Sorry for being old-fashioned.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 13, 2019 21:11:00 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. If you’ve got good parents then you’re in a situation to care for them. Good parents don’t breed them if they can’t feed them. How about making sure people who want bc can get it? Because that can actually reduce pregnancies.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 14, 2019 23:23:08 GMT -5
It’s available to anyone who cares to use it. Years ago insurance didn’t pay for BC. I managed to pay for it. Perhaps not getting nails done would even pay for it now. But that would require making a sacrifice or wise choices. Something beyond the capability of some people. Yes those are the kind of people we want to have children. Those with the iq and the self control of a newt. Apologies to newts for being compared. They probably have more sense and are better parents.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Mar 15, 2019 11:20:24 GMT -5
It’s available to anyone who cares to use it. Years ago insurance didn’t pay for BC. I managed to pay for it. Perhaps not getting nails done would even pay for it now. But that would require making a sacrifice or wise choices. Something beyond the capability of some people. Yes those are the kind of people we want to have children. Those with the iq and the self control of a newt. Apologies to newts for being compared. They probably have more sense and are better parents. For many women in this country, accessing birth control can be very difficult. Particularly in rural areas. It doesn't help that organizations like Planned Parenthood have been demonized as 'baby killers' and pushed out of serving the poorest and most vulnerable women. The women most likely to have unplanned pregnancies and not be in a position to support their children without government assistance.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Mar 15, 2019 11:30:21 GMT -5
Planned Parenthood was closed here a few years ago. To go to a clinic like that, a woman has to drive a couple of hours. Some don't have cars. Don't ask what went in to the building Planned Parenthood vacated
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 15, 2019 11:33:58 GMT -5
It’s available to anyone who cares to use it. Years ago insurance didn’t pay for BC. I managed to pay for it. Perhaps not getting nails done would even pay for it now. But that would require making a sacrifice or wise choices. Something beyond the capability of some people. Yes those are the kind of people we want to have children. Those with the iq and the self control of a newt. Apologies to newts for being compared. They probably have more sense and are better parents. And how much a month were you paying for it back then? And what percentage of your salary was it. And presumably your insurance at least paid for the doctor visit.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 15, 2019 11:43:08 GMT -5
And when we did go to the doctor the co pay wasn’t 20% or more of out take home pay and prescriptions nowadays could be more than my take home pay. Health Care Costs overall are a much higher % of our take home pay than they were when I was in my 20’s and 30’s.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 15, 2019 12:34:36 GMT -5
It’s available to anyone who cares to use it. Years ago insurance didn’t pay for BC. I managed to pay for it. Perhaps not getting nails done would even pay for it now. But that would require making a sacrifice or wise choices. Something beyond the capability of some people. Yes those are the kind of people we want to have children. Those with the iq and the self control of a newt. Apologies to newts for being compared. They probably have more sense and are better parents. Not in rural areas. Like food deserts, there are still places in the US where someone would have to drive 50 miles to get contraception. If you don’t have a car, that one remaining Planned Parenthood that is 3 towns over may as well be impossible. Heaven forbid if the only pharmacy in your town refuses to fill your prescription, even if you do have the money for it. Hell, I’ve run into this in a city. For me, it was no big deal, I had options.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 15, 2019 12:49:28 GMT -5
I don't know about the whole "poor people shouldn't breed" thing. Money doesn't make someone a good parent and growing up poor doesn't mean you're doomed to being a useless member of society. They might have to work twice as hard as the rich, privileged white kids that have fine upstanding parents willing to lie and bribe to get them into a good school, but at least they can say they earned it. I keep thinking of the Chavez family that sent all 5 of their kids to Harvard. Those were some amazing parents from very humble upbringings. Being born poor doesn't make one a bad parent. Choosing not to take advantage of the numerous opportunities to make something of yourself before having kids is often highly correlated with laziness and a lack of common sense. Good parents generally aren't lazy or lacking in common sense. This is just a general comment on the "Choosing not to take advantage of the numerous opportunities to make something of yourself".... is easy when you don't have to abandon or go against the ones you love to do it. What kind of person cuts off/abandons/shuns their family/friends to BETTER themselves? Isn't that bad? Isn't "family" more important than anything else? What if you don't have any place to go or don't have another 'better circle of people" to become your friends/family/help you out -- to get away from your family/friends so you CAN make your life better??
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Mar 15, 2019 14:55:43 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family. Thank you for bringing this up. My stomach clenches every time I see this term used, but I figured it was just a word that was not as offensive when used in the US as it is in my mother tongue. Cultural differences and all that. But the disdain that it shows for those that are "not like me" → aka a person who always does the "responsible thing", or more likely the one that got lucky along the way, is hard to take.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Mar 15, 2019 15:12:57 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family. Thank you for bringing this up. My stomach clenches every time I see this term used, but I figured it was just a word that was not as offensive when used in the US as it is in my mother tongue. Cultural differences and all that. But the disdain that it shows for those that are "not like me" → aka a person who always does the "responsible thing", or more likely the one that got lucky along the way, is hard to take.
It is not cultural. It is offensive. It says a lot about people who speak of other human beings in this manner.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Mar 15, 2019 15:37:13 GMT -5
Thank you for bringing this up. My stomach clenches every time I see this term used, but I figured it was just a word that was not as offensive when used in the US as it is in my mother tongue. Cultural differences and all that. But the disdain that it shows for those that are "not like me" → aka a person who always does the "responsible thing", or more likely the one that got lucky along the way, is hard to take.
It is not cultural. It is offensive. It says a lot about people who speak of other human beings in this manner. For me it did, but as I said it might have been different. For instance Dutch people have no problems talking about money, but telling the world how "good you are" at something is not just boasting, for many it is on par with sitting in a five-star restaurant and sticking your hand down your pants to scratch your butt.
Self-evaluations at work are a lot of fun for me as you can imagine. It has taken me only 20+ years to feel somewhat comfortable to saying out loud that I am actually very good at what I do
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 15, 2019 17:04:12 GMT -5
I find people talking about humans “breeding” offensive. People have children or decide to start a family. Thank you for bringing this up. My stomach clenches every time I see this term used, but I figured it was just a word that was not as offensive when used in the US as it is in my mother tongue. Cultural differences and all that. But the disdain that it shows for those that are "not like me" → aka a person who always does the "responsible thing", or more likely the one that got lucky along the way, is hard to take.
I was talking of everyone who reproduces. Rich, poor and middle class. I didn't call anyone "breeders", which has a different meaning. If you look at the context and the manner in which it was used, you can infer the meaning intended. Mine was to use the least amount of characters, as I was typing on my phone. That's all I've got to say about it. I was interested in talking about certain ideas in macroeconomics, not to put my word usage under a microscope, as I am not one to get super wordy just to make absolutely certain no one will take some offense at something I didn't even really say.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Mar 15, 2019 17:15:28 GMT -5
Thank you for bringing this up. My stomach clenches every time I see this term used, but I figured it was just a word that was not as offensive when used in the US as it is in my mother tongue. Cultural differences and all that. But the disdain that it shows for those that are "not like me" → aka a person who always does the "responsible thing", or more likely the one that got lucky along the way, is hard to take.
I was talking of everyone who reproduces. Rich, poor and middle class. I didn't call anyone "breeders", which has a different meaning. If you look at the context and the manner in which it was used, you can infer the meaning intended. Mine was to use the least amount of characters, as I was typing on my phone. That's all I've got to say about it. I was interested in talking about certain ideas in macroeconomics, not to put my word usage under a microscope, as I am not one to get super wordy just to make absolutely certain no one will take some offense at something I didn't even really say. I understand but even when we are talking big picture we need to keep in mind that certain word do imply contempt of others and that is hard to take. I dislike typing so I can easily see how anyone would like to use as few characters as possible, but there is something about keeping discussions somewhat civil that necessitates avoiding certain words when referring to others (and I am not saying that you used the word "breeding" but that word was thrown around). And that word is worse than something a person "will take some offense at".
Let's just not use it or its synomyms so we can focus on the issue at hand
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