Starting a business when you're single.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I didn't want to derail Paul's thread, but he once again said something I've seen a lot on these boards, and it's been bothering me for a while. His exact quote wasn't important, and I'm not picking on him specifically anyway, since it's a somewhat common idea that gets expressed. So what do I have an issue with? The idea that we should all start a business and be our own boss.

It's not the idea itself really, business ownership is a proven way to build wealth. It's also a personal dream of mine. It's the missing piece that doesn't get talked about much that bothers me. Most of the people I know who own a business, this board seemingly not an exception, got started while they had a spouse with a regular job to keep them afloat until they got the business off the ground. That's all fine and dandy if you're married, but it doesn't work so much when you're single. You can't pour your heart and soul into the business, put in the hours required, really dedicate yourself, and all that other crap that gets mentioned, if you're also working full time to keep a roof over your head and food in your stomach.

It's like this ingrained reality disconnect hardwired in the entrepreneurial brain. They're totally reliant on another human being to get started, but then spend the rest of their lives talking about being self made men/women.

Now, I'm not single, but my wife doesn't work right now, so for the purposes of starting a business I might as well be single. If I ditch the rat race and start a business our family would have no income coming in. I can try to start a business on the side, but side business tend to be just that. It usually takes a super dedicated owner putting in the hours to get a business going. Something you can't do, or not nearly as effectively anyway, when you also have to work a regular job. The obvious solution in my case would be to have my wife start a business, but she doesn't want too. It's my dream, not hers. The risk involved scares the bejeesus out of her.

Maybe this is all just whining and making excuses, but it's a topic that doesn't get talked about much, and you'd be crazy not to realize that getting a business going for a single person or one income household is a vastly different proposition than it is for a dual income household.

[chiver78]

I absolutely agree with you, Dark. I've been absolutely miserable at work lately, and not all that happy with it for a couple years now. the thought of either going back to school for something else, or taking a massive pay cut to be entry-level in anything else, is just frightening. I'm single, and live alone in a HCOL area.

I think that's what bugs me about all these "self-made men" - that most of them don't acknowledge that silent partner while they are blowing all that hot air.

[midjd]

Good points. Now I am trying to think of the marital statuses of everyone I know who started/runs his or her own business...

I can think of 2 guys I know pretty well, who both started their businesses in high school (landscaping and computer repair), and both were single at the time, BUT were either living with parents or received a startup loans from parents, or both. They weren't scrambling to pay rent and buy groceries while they built their businesses from the ground up. Not to downplay what they've done - owning a $100K+ business is extremely impressive for being 24/27, and both are really nice guys (and nice to their parents!). ;D But at the same time, you have a point about the "self-made man" stereotype. It is much more of a leap to decide to go into business for yourself while you are the sole wage-earner.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Right. My brother started his first business when he was 16. He was living at home though, and so was his partner, so they still had somebody to rely on for living expenses while they focused on the business.

[stats45]

This is a good topic. A second income can help, and like midwesternjd mentioned, family support can also be very helpful.

Another potential roadblock for many people is family responsibilities. If you don't start before children or have at least some of the initial toiling done by then, it could be difficult to risk a home, lifestyle, stability for any risks inherent in starting a business.

I should say though, I've seen a lot of businesses started by people later in life after 15-20 years of living in a very financially responsible way. The model I've seen is for one or two mid-career professionals to work on a project while transitioning out of their prior career. Often they are in their late forties or early fifties, and it provides a new challenge. This would seem to be consistent with the 'self-made' model, right?

[Deleted]

I've been thinking about going into business to (both stepdad and dad have their own business) but I am also scared about the finances/income side.
While my wife does have a job but it is not enough yet to support the both of us, for now I am waiting till we pay down our debt/increase our savings and can be supported on just one income.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I should say though, I've seen a lot of businesses started by people later in life after 15-20 years of living in a very financially responsible way. The model I've seen is for one or two mid-career professionals to work on a project while transitioning out of their prior career. Often they are in their late forties or early fifties, and it provides a new challenge. This would seem to be consistent with the 'self-made' model, right?

I wasn't trying to imply that there aren't self made men or women out there. I'm sure there are. They seem a lot rarer than what you hear about though, since a lot of the "self made" folks were relying on family or a spouse during the initial phases. Most of the older folks who start businesses are probably married too and have a spouse to help out to a certain extent, but most people past a certain age are married so you'd expect that.

[stats45]

I do think that entrepreneurs, though, have a completely different experience in their career that contributes to the 'entrepreneurial brian'. The modern corporation is highly differentiated with procedures, managers, and hierarchies for everything. There are overlapping levels of accountability and making decisions is often done by the 'organization' rather than by individuals.

Entrepreneurs have to make so many more decisions than the average employee, and so many more that deal with the viability of the company. I think that having to make these kinds of decisions all the time reminds you of your autonomy and role in the business. I think as people identify with all these responsibilities they really see the company as themselves, much more than you ever could in most jobs. I think this leads to the 'self-made' mindset.

[Gardening Grandma]

At my last job, my boss had started his own business after retiring from the navy. His wife was involved some at the beginning and she worked, so I think the combination of her job and his retirement carried them until his business took off.

I started working for him 6 months after he started, so I watched as he grew over the next five years. He did put in horrendous hours; there were no weekends off or holidays. However, last year he sold his business to a larger company (by this time, he had over 70 employees) and was kept on to direct it, so a pretty sweet deal for him. His wife has long since "retired" and she's only in her 50's.

He had a number of things going for him in addition: he had incredible people skills, he was a positive, optimistic person who could also be very realistic and hard headed, and he seemed to be tireless.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

You're describing married, but not to a team player. That's WAY worse than starting while you're single. Everyone's day is divided up into three parts, you work 8, sleep 8, and it's what you do with the other 8 that makes the difference. When you're single you can room with three Hatian immigrants in a 900 sq foot apartment, work your 40, and use the other 40 a week to start your business part time. That's tough, but it can be done.

When you ask your wife to move into the 900 sq ft apartment-- that's when the trouble starts, roomies or not. Let's face it-- for men, it's a great challenge to overcome the lifestyle expectations of most chicks.

And let these babes have a kid or two, and it's REALLY challenging then. All of the sudden you can't possibly raise your kids in an apartment you can afford, no, no, no. Now we need a house- we need to BUY a house before we've saved, before our retirement is fully funded, before we qualify to buy a house because someone will (still, even now) throw money at this objective we have.

Kiddies can't share a room. We can't have a galley kitchen. We MUST have a garage (and TWO cars, not just one to fill it).

It's all about managing expectations.

[sisterinhk]

So then, what do you think about someone that buys an existing business due to their own savings and bank loans---are they a self made man?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

No matter what your dream is, you will face obstacles. My suggestion is that whatever your obstacle, or obstacles-- find a mentor who overcame those obstacles. You don't even have to know them personally, just get to know their stories. You can always find someone who has overcome whatever it is you are facing, and more often than not- they overcame worse than what you're facing now.

You have to start emptying your mind of the excuses not to, and start filling your mind with reasons to.

You have two kids- they're not the excuse why you can't, they're the REASON WHY YOU MUST.

A lot of it I touched on before- is managing the expectations of those around us. Nobody wants their wife to feel like she has been let down. However, holding our dreams hostage is letting us down. If her expectations of material comfort are inteferring with your dreams of financial security (or vice versa to be fair), she has to be persuaded of the wisdom of building a financial fortress before she buys one for someone else by leveraging your income to borrow the money to buy lifestyle.

You also have to operate with absolute integrity. Business isn't a reason to rack up debt, it's not play time, or go out to dinner and go out drinking time. It's WORK time. A business card and a credit card do not an entrepreneur make. Most of us- myself included- have to start where we can with what we've got and bootstrap and shoestring it for all it's worth.

You don't want to take excessive risks, or gamble- but in my business, at least how I started, there is the possibility of "wholesaling" real estate. It requires very little money down and really amounts to risking some earnest money to put a property under contract and then assigning or selling that contract to another investor for a fee. You can think of the agreement to purchase real estate as an option contract- there's a specified price, specified terms, and specified period of time before you have to close (the contract expires). It's something that was as easy as learning how to find a screaming deal and getting to know who would buy it / close on it. The nice thing about it is that pretty early on it provided me with one of the key tools for persuading the unsupportive spouse: The shut your mouth check. When you earn $70K a year on your job, but you come home with a check for an assignment fee of $35K, she'll shut up. At least my lovely bride did. From that point on, all she wanted to know is how she could help me so we could do that again. From that point on she didn't get in the way of me "wasting time on this real estate get rich quick late night infomercial pipe dream" (oh, yes-- she said all that and more), instead she wanted me working at it all the time-- wasting more time at it, I guess.

I highly recommend figuring out how, in what you want to do, you can produce the "shut up check". My suggestion is that it be 5 figures (to the left of the decimal point), but maybe you can shut yours up for $5K or $1K?

[Tiny]

Keeping insurance benefits and steady income is one reason many people keep their 'day job' while they work on a side business. Working on a Side Business might not be so bad for someone who literally works 9 to 5 M-F and has little or no commute to their day job and maybe can spend an hour or two during the day working on the side business. It might not be so bad for someone like a teacher (regularly, predictable time off) or a fireman (working 24 hours on shift/48 hours off).
For those of us with jobs that require more time (and more sustained work while at work) - that leaves the late evenings and weekends to work on a side business... but then when do you do the laundry? cook? see your family? sleep?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

For those of us with jobs that require more time (and more sustained work while at work) - that leaves the late evenings and weekends to work on a side business... but then when do you do the laundry?

sometimes I you just don't. You hang your sh** up at the end of the day and hope you don't smell too bad the next day.

Cook?

Again- sometimes you don't. I couldn't afford to eat out, and didn't have time, so I sucked it up and went to bed

see your family? In the short term, you sacrifce time with family. In the longer term, I've got more time than I ever had before.

sleep? When you're dead. This Proverb is posted where I can read it in several rooms in my house:

Proverbs 6:6 10&11

A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—
and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.

The full verse is:
Go to the ant, you sluggard;
consider its ways and be wise!
7 It has no commander,
no overseer or ruler,
8 yet it stores its provisions in summer
and gathers its food at harvest.

9 How long will you lie there, you sluggard?
When will you get up from your sleep?
10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
a little folding of the hands to rest—
11 and poverty will come on you like a thief
and scarcity like an armed man.

Most of this time MOST people that whine about being broke aren't spending time with family or sleeping anyway-- they're screwing around. They watched March Madness, they kept up with the NFL, they watch TV, they surf the net, etc. If they were spending time with family, and that's their priority- fine. But that's just another one of the many, many excuses.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I totally agree with you Dark. There are some "self-made" people out there who omit the fact that they got their startup cash as a gift, or had someone else covering the bills. A friend of a friend has a successful paving company, and his personal salary is something like $5k/day. But he started out with a truck that his parents bought him. Another guy I know has 2 successful companies, and while I knew he had the desire and ability to succeed, wealthy Dad's seed money let him get started much earlier than he might have.

As I said in the other thread, there are also a lot of successful business owners who omit or downplay the events that happened between "I want to be successful in business" and "my business turned my annual salary into my monthly salary". Saving up or obtaining that seed money, failures from ventures that went bad, the 90 hour weeks, the not paying yourself a salary so money stays in the business...

Yeah, definitely easier and less risk if somebody else can keep you fed and sheltered...

[daylight]

This thread is spot on (and I have not read the other yet). And since we mentioned start-up help, I'd add family connections to it as well. It's easy to become successful in 3 months if the clients are a phone call away made by dad/mom/whoever.
I laughed at Paul's division of the 24 hours of a day. Work 8 hours? I realize that some fields are an exception, but lots of folks are expected to put in 10-11 hours a day for their 8-hour job without seeing an extra dollar because of the job cuts. You wish.

[SVT]

Apr 1, 2011 18:54:29 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So what do I have an issue with? The idea that we should all start a business and be our own boss.

When has that been mentioned? In one of my recent posts on "How To Get Rich", one of the points made was "consider owning your own business". I know Paul thinks everyone should/needs to own their own business.

Trying to start your own business is pretty risky and certainly not essential in becoming wealthy. The safer, more sure way to become wealthy is to have a steady job over one's lifetime and save and invest a portion of your income each and every year into broad based index funds and maybe a rental or two, too.

I look at trying to start a business like investing in individual stocks, as far as the risks go.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 2, 2011 20:51:09 GMT -5 SVT said:

Apr 1, 2011 18:54:29 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So what do I have an issue with? The idea that we should all start a business and be our own boss.

When has that been mentioned? In one of my recent posts on "How To Get Rich", one of the points made was "consider owning your own business". I know Paul thinks everyone should/needs to own their own business.

Trying to start your own business is pretty risky and certainly not essential in becoming wealthy. The safer, more sure way to become wealthy is to have a steady job over one's lifetime and save and invest a portion of your income each and every year into broad based index funds and maybe a rental or two, too.

I look at trying to start a business like investing in individual stocks, as far as the risks go.

A steady job, ore more than likely- series of jobs in the same field, and investing a portion of your income each and every year into broad based index funds and maybe a rental or two is a great way to become financially secure. It is THE thing EVERYONE can do.

However, I would point out that you may be secure, but it's actually tough to get rich doing that. The vast majority-- 82%-- of people who attain the status of $1 million or more in net worth are self-employed / small business owners. Nothing wrong with being secure financially. Beats the alternative.

But even as easy and automatic as becoming financially secure is-- people that make excuses, make excuses. If I've read it once, I've read it a thousand times on these very discussion boards--

I "can't afford to save".

Um, yeah- because you're servicing your massive pile of debt.

"I had no choice, I HAD to borrow money just to live"

Right, because if you didn't go into debt you would have died.

If you decide it's not for you- great. But I have a very hard time with the word "can't". You can. IF you CHOOSE.

The vast majority of people who do not get rich have made a conscious choice not to become wealthy. Luck, inheritance, financial gifts, other support-- these are all just excuses for other people's success.

I have been guilty of feeling this same way at times about people who are vastly more successful than I am. What you quickly realize is that it's not the resources they had. It's how successful people capitalize on their resources. Paris Hilton could be wildly successful. Instead, she's a dope.

[ssdawood]

Windy's right. It is a painful process to start a business. Anyone working 40 hours a week has a lot of time left over, say you work for 8, then work business for 9 still leaves you 7 hours for sleeping, eating and commuting. Its painful but doable if you have the drive.

I remember ymers always giving advice to work two jobs for people strapped for cash, Its the same principle here just you are not strapped for cash.

Also counting paid leaves and vacation time and weekends it can be done.

[ssdawood]

Although seed money is important to start a business, it ultimately depends on the drive of the individual starting the business . It the person is not driven and know his goals the business will fail and seed money will be lost.
He is still a self made man regardless of seed money.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"Although seed money is important to start a business, it ultimately depends on the drive of the individual starting the business":::...

Well until I meet someone that will work for free, I don't think drive alone is enough. Even if you never invest a penny of your own money, you still have to get that money from somewhere or someone. Convincing investors to write checks when you yourself are not is definitely a challenge.

I also said that seed money can help you move a lot quicker than you might have otherwise. If you start with a pile of cash, or insider access to connections, then a lot of the pain and drag of startup is done.

...:::"Let's face it-- for men, it's a great challenge to overcome the lifestyle expectations of most chicks.":::...

Damn straight... said lifestyle expectations have set me back for years. At least she is motivated now, and is actually contributing a lot of extra to move faster. But every now and then it gets me very upset to think that its going to take another 2 years just to get back to where I might have been 5 or more years ago, and how it will take 10 years to get where I might be today.

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2011 8:29:08 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

...:::"Let's face it-- for men, it's a great challenge to overcome the lifestyle expectations of most chicks.":::...

Damn straight... said lifestyle expectations have set me back for years. At least she is motivated now, and is actually contributing a lot of extra to move faster. But every now and then it gets me very upset to think that its going to take another 2 years just to get back to where I might have been 5 or more years ago, and how it will take 10 years to get where I might be today.

I will second/third that because this is the situation I am in everyday with my wife.

She agrees that our current apartment is too expensive, but she does not want to move to a less expensive apartment: it has to meet certain standards.

I could have easily move into a aone bedroom that would costs us half of the $1,670 we are paying now but it won't do for her. Heck right now I am trying to stop her from buying a $600 dinning room set because suddenly she does not like the want we purchase 2 years ago for more than $900

[thyme4change]

Now, I'm not single, but my wife doesn't work right now, so for the purposes of starting a business I might as well be single.

I think this statement is pretty false. If you are single you can rent a room in a shit-hole and live off $350/month, eating top ramen, etc. When you have a wife and kids you have responsibilities. Just because your wife doesn't currently work doesn't mean your family can't rethink their lifestyle and make decisions accordingly.

I knew a guy who decided he wanted to become a special ed teacher. She had stayed home for years. He was a salesman. They lived in a HUGE house in the nicest part of town (not the place where you pretend to be rich, but the place where actual money lives.) They had super-fancy cars. After a period of adjustment, they rethought everything. They rearranged their investments, sold their house, sold their cars, she went back to work - the kids even changed schools and went to (wait for it...) public school! He spent 2 years commuting to a special program that was at a college 2 hours away, and then got a job making a fraction of what he earned before - probably about 1/6th. According to your definition he was functionally "single" - yet once he and his wife decided being happy was more important than whatever possessions they had, all sorts of options opened up.

I'm not critizing you and Loop specifically - but if running your own business is really that important to you, and you have a plan, everyone in the family should help to make that dream possible. If, however, your plan is that sketchy "someday, I will work for myself - I don't know what I'll be doing, or when, or how, or anything - but someday." Well, then, of course there is no ability to execute that plan.

[alabamagal]

We have been through this. Husband started a business while I worked FT with benefits. And had 3 kids. Been at it for 15 years, and hope for many more. We did this with NO outside investment or help from anyone. A couple of things

1) It helped that I had steady income/full benefits. We only need a small amount from the business. This has been key to staying in business.
2) Being your own boss can mean working all the time!
3) We are now in the situation where most of our net worth is in the business. We can lose it at any time, but hope to continue to succeed.

[The J]

I think this statement is pretty false. If you are single you can rent a room in a shit-hole and live off $350/month, eating top ramen, etc. When you have a wife and kids you have responsibilities. Just because your wife doesn't currently work doesn't mean your family can't rethink their lifestyle and make decisions accordingly.

He means functionally single as in there is no other income to rely on, no other benefits to get on, etc... Not that Loop can't make lifestyle adjustments.

[thyme4change]

He means functionally single as in there is no other income to rely on, no other benefits to get on, etc

Yes - but Loop could get a job - and the kids need a house. Just because Loop doesn't work, doesn't mean she couldn't work if they really wanted to start a business.

Single means single - as in there is NO other person to pick up the slack, and there is also likely no other person to give up a lifestyle.

[Wisconsin Beth]

"but if running your own business is really that important to you, and you have a plan, everyone in the family should help to make that dream possible. If, however, your plan is that sketchy "someday, I will work for myself - I don't know what I'll be doing, or when, or how, or anything - but someday." Well, then, of course there is no ability to execute that plan."

this was DH when I met him. He wanted to run and own his own business. But he had no idea of what kind of business or any ideas to develop. I like to think I'd be supportive of him but with no real plan, I tend to think of it like my dream vacation - not likely to happen anytime soon.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Yes - but Loop could get a job - and the kids need a house. Just because Loop doesn't work, doesn't mean she couldn't work if they really wanted to start a business.

True, but it's not just the income, all of our insurance is through my employer as well. Loop has barely worked in the last 10 years, and she'd be trying to pick up as much of my 100k + benefits job as she could. The odds of her finding something like that with no real experience are somewhere between slim and none.

I get what you're saying about the whole family making adjustments. We could go back to living in a cheap apartment, pare down expenses, have Loop make up as much of my income as possible, I could find something part time, and we'd have to pray that one of our jobs included medical. It would be tough, and totally upend our lives, but it's doable. I do get that. However, that's a far different proposition, and a lot riskier, than it is for a non working spouse to start a business while the working spouse covers everything financially.

[Deleted]

Weirdly enough most of the business owners I know have SAH wives and kids and it has been that way since the beginning. The business start up wasn't easy. They took on a lot of debt to start the business and keep the family going for years until the business became profitable. They have the same insurance that they offer their employees. It was a huge gamble and not something I would be comfortable with, but it has paid off for them.

[thyme4change]

I have known a lot of stay at home moms that worked just enough to get health insurance for their family while the husband started a business.

Even if you quit a $100k job, a $30k income reduces the amount of debt you have to take on - by 30%!