This economy is almost too good to believe!

[weltschmerz]

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 5, 2018 12:54:25 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Not a bad wage for full-time workers either. In this area, $24K is OK. If you have two people making that, you can live pretty well.


For real? How could you save money, pay insurance, buy a car etc on that?

And most of these people never get 40 hours, that is the biggest issue here, some people are trying to work 3 jobs to try and make ends meet and no one offers health care.


Construction jobs used to be pay for a good middle class lifestyle, ask me how I know.

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

Where is healthcare? There's insurance premiums and deductibles.

[weltschmerz]

You mentioned a car payment.  What about car insurance, gas, licence and registration, etc.?
It's all free, like the the health care you neglected to mention?

[weltschmerz]

I guess people don't need things like clothes, either.

[countrygirl2]

Kind of wondering about that. I hope I don't have to do it. I think it would be very difficult to live on and I don't want a room mate.

My MIL in assisted living lives on $2000 a month and that's in an efficiency and everything including food, utilities, and all are included. But then her insurance is $3600 a year on top of that. We often buy clothes and some of her scrips and extras out of pocket.

[NastyWoman]

Oct 5, 2018 17:21:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:06:09 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Now unless my memory fails me (and I don't think it does) what ultimately kicked the Depression's butt was WII. Not much of a solution IMO

In the US, wars are GREAT for the economy.
Lots of money to be made.

To be fair that statement is (mostly) true for all countries that manage to become suppliers and keep the war away from their soil. 

Whether guns/bombs/whatnots are build in the US/France/China/etc. doesn't matter. Someone will be building these weapons and benefit from it. Be it through employment, economic development, or pain raw power.  Others will pay with their lives, their lost family, or their way of life. And their reaction may in turn change into a deep desire for revenge and extremism thereby perpetuating the misery of war.

[NastyWoman]

Oct 5, 2018 18:05:11 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Kind of wondering about that. I hope I don't have to do it. I think it would be very difficult to live on and I don't want a room mate.

My MIL in assisted living lives on $2000 a month and that's in an efficiency and everything including food, utilities, and all are included. But then her insurance is $3600 a year on top of that. We often buy clothes and some of her scrips and extras out of pocket.

Average rent for a single room (shared housing) is around $1,000 here. So unless you stack them like sardines you are going to live under a bridge

[weltschmerz]

Oct 5, 2018 18:05:26 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Oct 5, 2018 17:21:35 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

In the US, wars are GREAT for the economy.
Lots of money to be made.

To be fair that statement is (mostly) true for all countries that manage to become suppliers and keep the war away from their soil. 

Whether guns/bombs/whatnots are build in the US/France/China/etc. doesn't matter. Someone will be building these weapons and benefit from it. Be it through employment, economic development, or pain raw power.  Others will pay with their lives, their lost family, or their way of life. And their reaction may in turn change into a deep desire for revenge and extremism thereby perpetuating the misery of war.

To be fair, many other countries like France and Great Britain were bombed to smithereens during the last world war. It took a great deal of time and money to put things right again. That's when the US was in its heyday.

[countrygirl2]

It sounds terrible but the world is overpopulated anyway. I think war is a way to keep the planet sustainable. Imagine if all those millions had lived and procreated, how many millions upon millions more we would have. Wonder if it may be an inherent flaw made on purpose in mankind so they do not get along and kill each other off periodically. Actually its horrid but wars have served that purpose.

[weltschmerz]

Oct 5, 2018 20:08:34 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

It sounds terrible but the world is overpopulated anyway. I think war is a way to keep the planet sustainable. Imagine if all those millions had lived and procreated, how many millions upon millions more we would have. Wonder if it may be an inherent flaw made on purpose in mankind so they do not get along and kill each other off periodically. Actually its horrid but wars have served that purpose.

So have diseases?

[dezii]

Oct 5, 2018 16:59:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:08:21 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

The Vietnam war helped the economy a lot also.

At the expense of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces.

Amen to that.....

[Tiny]

Oct 5, 2018 17:22:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

Where is healthcare? There's insurance premiums and deductibles.

$200 a month for food? I get away with $250 a month for 1 person - but I'm not eating anything like what my relatives/friends/coworkers are eating (they spend alot more $$ than I do).
There's no beer in that $200 a month is there? and no vaping/cigarettes??   And what about TP, Papertowels, personal hygiene types stuff, and sweets and convenience foods (you know frozen pizza and chips and that cheese spread stuff??) ? And there's no line item for eating out or going to the bar on Friday nite (or on Sunday to watch the game). Heck, there's not even enough money there to invite one's friends over to watch the game (that's hopefully on regular TV and not cable).


Well, $15 an hour at 40 hours a week (160 a month) is $2400 before taxes and other payroll deductions... so Let's say guesstimate $450 for taxes. Let's guesstimate another $300 for healthcare or whatever else - so $1650.00 so that leaves $480 a month for the Fixed Expenses you left out - car insurance, gas for the car, clothes, laundramat expense, car maintenance. They can pretty much forget about eating out, buying anyone a gift.

Oddly enough I agree with you that it IS doable... for a year or two. The thing that gets over looked is that this person has little to no hope of ever earning a bigger income. Sure, they might get overtime and they may get yearly raises (as minimum wage increases) but they will spend their working career earning barely enough. They are NOT middle class - there's little to no way they can save enough to handle an actual 'emergency expense' - like job loss or loss of their vehicle or home or a serious illness or injury. And they aren't going on any sort of nice vacation (the kind that costs $1K or more) and they aren't saving for retirement. And the thing is - 3 years, 5 years, 10 years from now? they will be EXACTLY where they are now... getting by.

That's not the American Dream      (I recently learned that the American Dream was to own a home.... I always thought it meant earning enough to "get ahead" to live comfortably AND save $$ so you eventually didn't have work.   Just getting by doesn't buy that American Dream either) 

[Gardening Grandma]

Oct 5, 2018 20:51:42 GMT -5 dezii said:

Oct 5, 2018 16:59:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

At the expense of 57,939 members of U.S. armed forces.

Amen to that.....

Most of them very young....💔

[NastyWoman]

Oct 5, 2018 20:08:34 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

It sounds terrible but the world is overpopulated anyway. I think war is a way to keep the planet sustainable. Imagine if all those millions had lived and procreated, how many millions upon millions more we would have. Wonder if it may be an inherent flaw made on purpose in mankind so they do not get along and kill each other off periodically. Actually its horrid but wars have served that purpose.

It sounds terrible because it is a terrible thing to say or think. I remember how much you feared for the safety of your DS. only a short time ago. Do you really think the average Korean mother loves her child any less than you do? Any Chinese grandmother worries about her grandchild any less than you do?

We have to do and be better than this

[dezii]

Oct 5, 2018 21:12:37 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Oct 5, 2018 20:51:42 GMT -5 dezii said:

Amen to that.....

Most of them very young....💔

Gardening....it's one profession that favors the very young....

[weltschmerz]

I agree that the word is over-populated.
When we give money as foreign aid to impoverished countries, birth control MUST be included.
Otherwise, the problems will never end, and only get bigger.

[Gardening Grandma]

Oct 5, 2018 21:28:52 GMT -5 dezii said:

Oct 5, 2018 21:12:37 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Most of them very young....💔

Gardening....it's one profession that favors the very young....

Made me think of my 22 year old grandson who is an active duty sailor. Proud of him and worry about him at the same time

[countrygirl2]

Oh, I do too, its awful to know its overpopulated. But when we have chosen to not help countries to reduce their populations when we have the ability and they want it is criminal in my book. But like I said its bad now but without some type of die off, war or whatever we would be walking on each other.

Of course, none of us wants it to happen to us or our own, but something has to keep it under control. It's the same with any animal population, it surges and declines when the available food source is reduced or in other ways such as disease.

[kadee79]

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Oct 5, 2018 12:54:25 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Not a bad wage for full-time workers either. In this area, $24K is OK. If you have two people making that, you can live pretty well.


For real? How could you save money, pay insurance, buy a car etc on that?

And most of these people never get 40 hours, that is the biggest issue here, some people are trying to work 3 jobs to try and make ends meet and no one offers health care.


Construction jobs used to be pay for a good middle class lifestyle, ask me how I know.

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

WOW!  All of our poor folks need to move to your area...that is some CHEAP rent.  I live in a LOW COL area and even subsidized rent runs $450 & up depending on the bedroom # & the fact that it is decent...not a run down place...even those go for around $300...and wouldn't be livable IMHO.  
$50 a week for food?...what will they eat all week, beans?  Most cell phone plans here run more than that too, especially if it's one that can connect with the net in a reasonable time.  That electric is cheap too, most average $100+ around here.  But auto insurance is cheap here since it's not a big urban area.
Yes, 2 people can live decent here on $48,000 a yr., but they won't save much if any and when an emergency happens...debt piles up.

My DGS made $15 per hr. working part time last summer (college student) working for a moving company...loading/unloading trucks.  It was on an "as needed basis"....so he never knew if he would work or not.  He also had another job as a lifeguard which only paid $10 hr., but he had a schedule there, but not full time either.  Since he takes a full load of classes AND runs either cross country or does triathlons, he needed to save enough during the summer to support him all school year....he is now scrapping by, by the skin of his teeth.

[kadee79]

And on another note...it isn't just the unions that trained youngsters, they also took the trades out of high schools where many started learning skills they could improve & expand and get a decent wage.
BUT, contractors don't want to pay for someone who actually knows the trade...when they decide to pay decent wages it might again be worth the effort of learning a trade.

[zibazinski]

Oct 5, 2018 23:07:15 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

And on another note...it isn't just the unions that trained youngsters, they also took the trades out of high schools where many started learning skills they could improve & expand and get a decent wage.
BUT, contractors don't want to pay for someone who actually knows the trade...when they decide to pay decent wages it might again be worth the effort of learning a trade.

When my uncle was in HS he graduated with enough skills to work on cars, then not today’s cars, had plumbing skills and could go right to apprenticeship, as well as electrical and carpentry skills. He also was in the band and played sports. This was regular HS curriculum. Now you’d have to go to a special trade HS to get that. No reason for it. He and others had skills to get jobs or move into apprenticeship right out of HS. Of course that’s when the only things women could do was typing, shorthand, and bookkeeping but those skills were in demand as well. My Aunt got a job with the state right out of HS. Had her own apartment with a roommate right downtown so she walked to work.

[buystoys]

Oct 5, 2018 17:20:11 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

$60.00 for electric? In the winter?

Electric is cheap here.  It might go up to $75?  It won't be much of an increase for an apartment.

[buystoys]

Oct 5, 2018 17:22:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

Where is healthcare? There's insurance premiums and deductibles.

Good lord!  I just gave the biggies as an estimate using what my parents pay for those items.  There's more than $600 left per month if the person is in the 10% tax bracket.  I think that will cover quite a bit of the things you are complaining about.  And we've already ascertained in the tons of ACA threads that healthcare deductibles are impossible. 

Of course, if someone is working full time, then their healthcare premiums are paid for them.  That's also part of ACA.

[buystoys]

Oct 5, 2018 23:04:27 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

Oct 5, 2018 15:42:06 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Yes, for real. 

$500.00 rent
$250.00 car payment
$200.00 groceries
$100.00 cable
$60.00 cell phone
$60.00 electric
$1,170.00 total

That car payment could go up some as well, but there's room in there to save and pay for insurance.  Get a room mate and split $600 per month rent for a two bedroom and you've got even more breathing space.  Yes, you can find places with higher rent, but you can also find some with lower.  The chain restaurant my nephew works at is happy to hire people for full time positions.  Many of the fast food places here are advertising for those full time positions.  The worker pool is so small that they HAVE to get workers in for full time hours.

Yes, construction jobs used to pay for a good middle class lifestyle.  You yourself said it though:  too many contractors want to pinch the penny and hire illegal workers.  That will keep those salaries down.

WOW!  All of our poor folks need to move to your area...that is some CHEAP rent.  I live in a LOW COL area and even subsidized rent runs $450 & up depending on the bedroom # & the fact that it is decent...not a run down place...even those go for around $300...and wouldn't be livable IMHO.  
$50 a week for food?...what will they eat all week, beans?  Most cell phone plans here run more than that too, especially if it's one that can connect with the net in a reasonable time.  That electric is cheap too, most average $100+ around here.  But auto insurance is cheap here since it's not a big urban area.
Yes, 2 people can live decent here on $48,000 a yr., but they won't save much if any and when an emergency happens...debt piles up.

My DGS made $15 per hr. working part time last summer (college student) working for a moving company...loading/unloading trucks.  It was on an "as needed basis"....so he never knew if he would work or not.  He also had another job as a lifeguard which only paid $10 hr., but he had a schedule there, but not full time either.  Since he takes a full load of classes AND runs either cross country or does triathlons, he needed to save enough during the summer to support him all school year....he is now scrapping by, by the skin of his teeth.

Yes, rent is cheap here right now.  The apartment complexes are overbuilt.  You can find more expensive rent without looking very hard, but a two bedroom can go for as little as $600 per month with all bills paid in a decent neighborhood.  You can find one for less if you want to start looking at sketchy areas.  You could also get a room mate or two and rent a 3/2 trailer for $750 per month, but that is borderline on the sketchy area. 

My cell is $60 per month with all the bells and whistles.  DH's is $35 per month. 

I used my parent's electric bill as an estimate.  They pay $75 on the flat billing for a two bedroom apartment.  I'm assuming the bill would be lower for one bedroom. 

There's a lot left over after the big bills, so food could go up, auto insurance should be covered as should gas (which also tends to be cheaper here) and there's still room for saving some and spending some. 

ETA:  Our income is a little more than that $48K and we live pretty comfortably.  We have a mortgage and a vehicle payment and our electric bill is higher (we have a house larger than a two bedroom apartment, though) and we live pretty comfortably.  With two of us, we frequently spend about $100 per week for groceries, which is where I came up with the estimate number.  It's not living in the lap of luxury, but it's also not scraping the bottom of the barrel to pay bills.

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2018 6:37:30 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

...
When my uncle was in HS he graduated with enough skills to work on cars, then not today’s cars, had plumbing skills and could go right to apprenticeship, as well as electrical and carpentry skills. He also was in the band and played sports. This was regular HS curriculum. Now you’d have to go to a special trade HS to get that. No reason for it. ...

A reason for it is costs. If you centralize all the expensive training equipment and instructors in one location, you can serve more students.

[dezii]

Oct 3, 2018 11:24:54 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Based on the results of the November election I will be making some quick investment decisions if the democrats take over Congress. 
If people vote their pocketbooks as is customary, the Republicans and Trmp remain in the driver's seat. If they vote based on democratic rhetoric, it will be time to trim some investments.
I do not think the democrats will continue on the progress the President has made for the economy to continue leading the world forward.
Remember, when America sneezes, the world gets a cold.

You do realize that what ever u decide regarding your investment portfolio is strictly your business and for myself , I have literally no interest in what u may or may not do...zero, zilch...nada.

As long as we are on the mundane announcements...two days ago I received my absent  ballot for the upcoming midterms election...haven't opened yet. I did see posted somewhere that two stamps are needed for postage to mail in and be counted...anyone else see that..?

If so, and not so marked on the mail in envelope ...since pubs are in charge of all branches of government right now...since historically mid terms seem to favor the party out of power and since so many absent ballots are cast by elderly , the disabled..possible favoring the ones who swing left over those who go right...could this be a small conspiracy put up by Donalds party...?  Just asking.

[dezii]

Oct 5, 2018 20:02:10 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Oct 5, 2018 18:05:26 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

To be fair that statement is (mostly) true for all countries that manage to become suppliers and keep the war away from their soil. 

Whether guns/bombs/whatnots are build in the US/France/China/etc. doesn't matter. Someone will be building these weapons and benefit from it. Be it through employment, economic development, or pain raw power.  Others will pay with their lives, their lost family, or their way of life. And their reaction may in turn change into a deep desire for revenge and extremism thereby perpetuating the misery of war.

To be fair, many other countries like France and Great Britain were bombed to smithereens during the last world war. It took a great deal of time and money to put things right again. That's when the US was in its heyday.

Actually it was Germany that was bombed to smithereens...toward the end of the conflict, the head of Great Britains bomber force, Bomber Harris, declared there were no more viable targets left in Germany. England did have it's blitz but by 1941/42   except for v 2 rockets later in the war and the buzz bombs...not much bombing going on and France suffered very heavy along the coast because of the invasion ..as much by bombardment from the sea  as by air..but nothing like that suffered by Germany.

[Value Buy]

Oct 6, 2018 10:26:59 GMT -5 dezii said:

Oct 3, 2018 11:24:54 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Based on the results of the November election I will be making some quick investment decisions if the democrats take over Congress. 
If people vote their pocketbooks as is customary, the Republicans and Trmp remain in the driver's seat. If they vote based on democratic rhetoric, it will be time to trim some investments.
I do not think the democrats will continue on the progress the President has made for the economy to continue leading the world forward.
Remember, when America sneezes, the world gets a cold.

You do realize that what ever u decide regarding your investment portfolio is strictly your business and for myself , I have literally no interest in what u may or may not do...zero, zilch...nada.

As long as we are on the mundane announcements...two days ago I received my absent  ballot for the upcoming midterms election...haven't opened yet. I did see posted somewhere that two stamps are needed for postage to mail in and be counted...anyone else see that..?

If so, and not so marked on the mail in envelope ...since pubs are in charge of all branches of government right now...since historically mid terms seem to favor the party out of power and since so many absent ballots are cast by elderly , the disabled..possible favoring the ones who swing left over those who go right...could this be a small conspiracy put up by Donalds party...?  Just asking.

In 2016 we were here in Florida, originally planned to be back in Indiana to vote there. We decided to stay in Florida and sent a request for an absentee ballot back to our county of residence in Indiana. We received it in the mail on Friday afternoon with four days before the election, and there was no prepaid envelope for us either. For whatever reason when we mail anything from here back to Indiana it always seems to take five  working days or more. Do not ask me why, it just does. First class mail mailed from Indiana takes about four days.
We called the voter registration office and asked if we had enough time to just mail it back, since I did not think we would make the Tuesday deadline. We were told if it is postmarked by Monday we were good. I did not want to take that chance, so took the envelope to the post office and decided to mail it. She weighed the envelope, and said overnight was going to cost $5 and something (I forget the total).
IMO, it was worth it to make sure our vote counted. To the best of my knowledge, the Postal service is not a Federal government controlled agency. The state of  Indiana is not controlled by the Federal government. I never asked whether President Obama was making me pay for the right to vote, because I knew he had nothing to do with it. 
I think you know Trump and the Republican party have nothing to do with your having to put postage on the envelope either.

One more thing. It was a small price to pay to have the wife and I be able to vote for President Trump. We had considered we may have to fly back and vote in person if the registration office told us our ballot would arrive late and not be counted. I do believe they told us if it was postmarked before the election date it would be accepted, but I really wonder if it arrives three days after the election, if it is counted. 

[billisonboard]

Oct 6, 2018 11:50:50 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

...

Trump took this approach with ISIS, did you note what happened recently ?

You mean this: Bombs in former ISIS strongholds in Iraq kill 1, wound 16? Now that they no longer hold much territory, it is back to this type of warfare.

[dezii]

Oct 6, 2018 11:50:50 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Oct 6, 2018 10:33:03 GMT -5 dezii said:

Actually it was Germany that was bombed to smithereens...toward the end of the conflict, the head of Great Britains bomber force, Bomber Harris, declared there were no more viable targets left in Germany. England did have it's blitz but by 1941/42   except for v 2 rockets later in the war and the buzz bombs...not much bombing going on and France suffered very heavy along the coast because of the invasion ..as much by bombardment from the sea  as by air..but nothing like that suffered by Germany.

Dresden...

We need to get back to fighting wars like they are intended to be won.

Maybe we won't have so many.

Limited engagement is a spineless approach for what actually needs to be done.

Trump took this less limited approach with ISIS, did you note what happened recently ?

If u say so...there are nuclear weapons to be considered...the biological and gas ones which are the undeveloped countries answer to those who have nucs...also the problem of who do u fight when it's not nations that are your enemy but ideas....just saying.

Also, what about collateral damage to major power folks who are killed and wounded...say Russian, Chinese...do u really want to  with those folks?

[irishpad]

If the standard for economic good for the country is the stock market, looks like the Democrats know how to do it.   Waiting for the next crash due to Republicans handing more wealth to the 1%  blogs-images.forbes.com/peterlazaroff/files/2016/07/2016-07-20-President-Market-Data.jpg