God, Trump and the meaning of morality

[Tennesseer]

The article speaks for itself.

Judgment days
In a small Alabama town, an evangelical congregation reckons with God, President Trump and the meaning of morality

Clay Crum opened his Bible to Exodus Chapter 20 and read verse 14 one more time.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery,” it said.

He prayed about what he was going to do. He was the pastor of First Baptist Church in the town of Luverne, Ala., which meant he was the moral leader of a congregation that overwhelmingly supported a president who was an alleged adulterer. For the past six weeks, Crum had been preaching a series of sermons on the Ten Commandments, and now it was time for number seven.

It was summer, and all over the Bible Belt, support for President Trump was rising among voters who had traditionally proclaimed the importance of Christian character in leaders and warned of the slippery slope of moral compromise. In Crenshaw County, where Luverne is located, Trump had won 72 percent of the vote. Recent national polls showed the president’s approval among white evangelical Christians at a high of 77 percent. One survey indicated that his support among Southern Baptists was even higher, surpassing 80 percent, and these were the people arriving on Sunday morning to hear what their pastor had to say.

Complete article here:  God, Trump and the meaning of morality

[busymom]

It's depressing how easily some of their personal prejudices are rationalized, as you read through the article.  Our Pastor has never told us how to vote, but he doesn't shrink away from talking about sin, even if it offends some people.  Too bad this man didn't take the opportunity to state that Trump is no role model when it comes to marriage.  

[Tiny]

God is all about 'forgiveness' and, besides, people change. Who cares what Trump did in the past or who he was in the past. He's gotten Right with God.

I would think that Trump's adultery wouldn't even be an issue for a deeply religious person. (no underaged girls or men or boys seem to have been involved and I'm sure the sex was all "missionary position" and proper.). Heck, the bible has lots of instances of adultery that's AOK with God.

I would think more serious 'moral failings' would be his wishy washy ness - he more or less was democratic in the past, said he was pro choice, and certainly hasn't followed the "high road" in his business deals (the people he stiffed out of money) or even his White supremacist friends (who he's had for a lot of years).

I would imagine many in the congregation in the article had sex before marriage (and maybe NOT with their eventual spouse) and that some of them, themselves are "in the closest" adulterers -- even if the affair is over and was long ago. I'm sure they feel they have been 'forgiven' and are Right with God.  I bet plenty of the adulterers in the congregation are good people - who strayed alittle. 

Besides, God isn't ever wrong. So, it would seem that the religious will just have to re-interpret what they believe about what God wants. It's not hard. The Bible is very helpful in this. I'm sure some passage can be found to support just about any personal view.

So, it seems obvious to me, that there is no moral issue for the religious over Trump's adultery . Trump is doing God's work.

[thyme4change]

If I hadn't lost faith in Christians and "the church" before, their support of Trump pushed me over the top.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 22, 2018 11:58:47 GMT -5 Tiny said:

God is all about 'forgiveness' and, besides, people change. Who cares what Trump did in the past or who he was in the past. He's gotten Right with God.

I would think that Trump's adultery wouldn't even be an issue for a deeply religious person. (no underaged girls or men or boys seem to have been involved and I'm sure the sex was all "missionary position" and proper.). Heck, the bible has lots of instances of adultery that's AOK with God.

I would think more serious 'moral failings' would be his wishy washy ness - he more or less was democratic in the past, said he was pro choice, and certainly hasn't followed the "high road" in his business deals (the people he stiffed out of money) or even his White supremacist friends (who he's had for a lot of years).

I would imagine many in the congregation in the article had sex before marriage (and maybe NOT with their eventual spouse) and that some of them, themselves are "in the closest" adulterers -- even if the affair is over and was long ago. I'm sure they feel they have been 'forgiven' and are Right with God.  I bet plenty of the adulterers in the congregation are good people - who strayed alittle. 

Besides, God isn't ever wrong. So, it would seem that the religious will just have to re-interpret what they believe about what God wants. It's not hard. The Bible is very helpful in this. I'm sure some passage can be found to support just about any personal view.

So, it seems obvious to me, that there is no moral issue for the religious over Trump's adultery . Trump is doing God's work.

I don't think he's gotten "Right with God" at all. It's a sham to impress his evangelical base.

[Deleted]

When you get past the skin deep “religious people are moral and good” and actually read all of the disgusting things in their books and that their leaders have done it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I’ve found religious/non religious people have about the same percentage of douchebaggery. The only difference is hipocracy.

[Tiny]

Jul 22, 2018 13:23:08 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jul 22, 2018 11:58:47 GMT -5 Tiny said:

God is all about 'forgiveness' and, besides, people change. Who cares what Trump did in the past or who he was in the past. He's gotten Right with God.

I would think that Trump's adultery wouldn't even be an issue for a deeply religious person. (no underaged girls or men or boys seem to have been involved and I'm sure the sex was all "missionary position" and proper.). Heck, the bible has lots of instances of adultery that's AOK with God.

I would think more serious 'moral failings' would be his wishy washy ness - he more or less was democratic in the past, said he was pro choice, and certainly hasn't followed the "high road" in his business deals (the people he stiffed out of money) or even his White supremacist friends (who he's had for a lot of years).

I would imagine many in the congregation in the article had sex before marriage (and maybe NOT with their eventual spouse) and that some of them, themselves are "in the closest" adulterers -- even if the affair is over and was long ago. I'm sure they feel they have been 'forgiven' and are Right with God.  I bet plenty of the adulterers in the congregation are good people - who strayed alittle. 

Besides, God isn't ever wrong. So, it would seem that the religious will just have to re-interpret what they believe about what God wants. It's not hard. The Bible is very helpful in this. I'm sure some passage can be found to support just about any personal view.

So, it seems obvious to me, that there is no moral issue for the religious over Trump's adultery . Trump is doing God's work.

I don't think he's gotten "Right with God" at all. It's a sham to impress his evangelical base.

But he has "gotten Right with God"... he gave them a conservative Court Justice, he's against abortion, he's against anything that steps outside the sexual bounds of "Christianity" - (homosexuality, transgender, same sex marriage, )  Although the religious only condemn rarely condemn sex with female children when someone gets caught doing it (I assume it's religiously ok for men to have sex with young girls - since it seems to be  a "everyone looks the other way" kinda thing. )     
I don't think adultery is all that bad for Christians because it's a Patriarchy.   Men in power get that benefit.
 
I actually think his Christian backers use his adultery as a "screen" - it's something "everyone does" or something that someone you know has done and it's a forgiveable sin.  Who doesn't like a human sin that God can forgive?   It keeps one from having to focus on bigger moral failings. 

[weltschmerz]

Jul 22, 2018 13:53:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jul 22, 2018 13:23:08 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I don't think he's gotten "Right with God" at all. It's a sham to impress his evangelical base.

But he has "gotten Right with God"... he gave them a conservative Court Justice, he's against abortion, he's against anything that steps outside the sexual bounds of "Christianity" - (homosexuality, transgender, same sex marriage, )  Although the religious only condemn rarely condemn sex with female children when someone gets caught doing it (I assume it's religiously ok for men to have sex with young girls - since it seems to be  a "everyone looks the other way" kinda thing. )     
I don't think adultery is all that bad for Christians because it's a Patriarchy.   Men in power get that benefit.
 
I actually think his Christian backers use his adultery as a "screen" - it's something "everyone does" or something that someone you know has done and it's a forgiveable sin.  Who doesn't like a human sin that God can forgive?   It keeps one from having to focus on bigger moral failings. 

He knows his base is staunchly evangelical and he promised to appoint a conservative court justice while campaigning.
He knows his base is staunchly evangelical and he's playing by their rule book. They're all he has.

I don't think he's gotten right with god at all.

[Tiny]

Jul 22, 2018 13:41:23 GMT -5 @aj said:

When you get past the skin deep “religious people are moral and good” and actually read all of the disgusting things in their books and that their leaders have done it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I’ve found religious/non religious people have about the same percentage of douchebaggery. The only difference is hipocracy.

 Yeah, well, my basic thoughts are that the God of the Bible - is basically Evil - especially when His followers proclaim that He is All Good.   Um, "All Good"?  Um, no. just no.  

I think many of the religious also struggle with that dichotomy of the God of the Bible.  Some how they over come it.  I assume by believing that what they themselves feel is 'right' must be what God also feels is right.    I have rarely found someone doing something morally questionable who DIDN"T believe they were justified in doing it (because it 'felt right')   

But then again my Moral Compass is broken (I'm an atheist, I'm pro choice, I'm ok with same sex marriage, transgendered, and I'm ok with gun regulation/laws (which isn't the same thing as "take away ALL the guns".  - see broken moral compass). 

[Tiny]

Jul 22, 2018 14:00:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jul 22, 2018 13:53:00 GMT -5 Tiny said:

But he has "gotten Right with God"... he gave them a conservative Court Justice, he's against abortion, he's against anything that steps outside the sexual bounds of "Christianity" - (homosexuality, transgender, same sex marriage, )  Although the religious only condemn rarely condemn sex with female children when someone gets caught doing it (I assume it's religiously ok for men to have sex with young girls - since it seems to be  a "everyone looks the other way" kinda thing. )     
I don't think adultery is all that bad for Christians because it's a Patriarchy.   Men in power get that benefit.
 
I actually think his Christian backers use his adultery as a "screen" - it's something "everyone does" or something that someone you know has done and it's a forgiveable sin.  Who doesn't like a human sin that God can forgive?   It keeps one from having to focus on bigger moral failings. 

He knows his base is staunchly evangelical and he promised to appoint a conservative court justice while campaigning.
He knows his base is staunchly evangelical and he's playing by their rule book. They're all he has.

I don't think he's gotten right with god at all.

IDK,  God of the Bible - seems to pretty much be OK with you as long as you play by  his rules... he doesn't really care about the cost of abiding by those rules.   Or if you are just paying lip service or using His Will as a tool to get what you want (especially if it's something that God is supposedly against.   It's like you get your reward here and not in the afterlife. and God wins!)  

I suspect the religious would be the first to say - you don't know the state of his soul... but by his actions he has gotten right with God.    Think of all the souls that might be FORCED onto the path of Righteousness  (even if it destroys families or a woman's life or the life of the child  they can look forward to being rewarded for their suffering in Heaven.)  - when abortion is no longer available, and when "deviant" sexuality is no longer tolerated (souls will be diverted/discouraged from giving in to their base human nature and will reap the reward in heaven), etc.     That is worth overlooking Trump's failings.      Religion is about PLEASING the God you worship - it isn't really about human rights or human suffering or compassion or fairness to other humans.  It's about making your God happy. 
 

Added:  And Trump is making God happy... doesn't matter who gets ground up in the gears.   

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Religion is about PLEASING the God you worship - it isn't really about human rights or human suffering or compassion or fairness to other humans. It's about making your God happy.

 And Trump only worships himself. Has Trump become a born again Christian and asked for forgiveness for his past sins? 

[busymom]

A most basic "rule" of Christianity requires you to ask God to forgive your sins, to admit that you're a sinner.  I do recall an article (or several) where Trump states he's never asked for forgiveness.  I'll post one here:

              www.businessinsider.com/trump-on-god-i-dont-like-to-have-to-ask-for-forgiveness-2016-1


So, IMHO he hasn't made things "right" with God.  It would require him to admit he's not perfect, and that's not gonna happen...

[Opti]

Jul 22, 2018 15:57:40 GMT -5 busymom said:

A most basic "rule" of Christianity requires you to ask God to forgive your sins, to admit that you're a sinner.  I do recall an article (or several) where Trump states he's never asked for forgiveness.  I'll post one here:

              www.businessinsider.com/trump-on-god-i-dont-like-to-have-to-ask-for-forgiveness-2016-1


So, IMHO he hasn't made things "right" with God.  It would require him to admit he's not perfect, and that's not gonna happen...

I don't think he's made things "right" with God either. I think he's paid lip service to some things because he figured out early on, many of these people are hypocrites and Christian in Name, more than in truth. It is the Catholic Church that has decreed abortion is against God. I think they are wrong. The old testament actually had some verses concerning terminating a pregnancy. If I remember correctly, it needed to be done within three months if a boy, but up to 6 months if a girl. Be fruitful and multiply is not anti-abortion. I don't even think it is anti-birth control.

[Opti]

Tenn, thanks for posting the article. I found many of the parishioners un-Christian according to what I was taught in the church of my birth. My church's first pastor is a now noted theologian and partly because of it has been deep into teaching and biblical interpretation.

That woman pissed me off. Any kid who went to Sunday school should know the story of the good Samaritan. God created everything. Not just Americans. Her bias is stronger than her faith.

[teen persuasion]

I just finished reading "Moral Combat: How Sex Divided American Christians and Fractured American Politics" by R. Maria Griffith. It was eye-opening for me, living in NY and completely inexperienced with the Southern Baptist beliefs. As Opti said, not the lessons I learned from my Christian religion, not at all.

The book went roughly chronologically thru the twentieth century beginning at the suffrage movement, then the battle over birth control in the roaring twenties, censorship (triggered by the birth control literature, but extending to books and movies), segregation and race-mixing in the early civil rights era, the Kinsey report (and challenges to female chastity), sex education in the sixties and the surging Religious Right, abortion, sexual harassment (Anita Hill), and same-sex marriage and LGBT rights.

The running thread thru each issue and time period is that the real conflict is with "those wanting to conserve a particular model of the status quo that maintains an older notion of traditional order, gender hierarchy, and obedience to strict sexual limits."

I hadn't realized that Protestant religions had accepted birth control (if only in opposition to Catholicism's knee jerk rejection of it) so early.

Another interesting point was the race-mixing issue. It came up in the censorship chapter; inter-racial relationships were completely taboo in movies, while adultery was to be avoided/minimized unless crucial to plot. Race mixing was a control issue - opponents decried up and down that it was unnatural and evil, etc., but they only really meant white women with black men. White male slave holders had had an incentive to rape black female slaves, once it was decided their children were also slaves. "White disgust toward miscegenation rested on - and was reinforced by - Christian theology and radicalized readings of the Bible. God had created separate and distinctive races, the argument went, and He expected them to stay that way...Some pro-slavery writers before the Civil War characterized the serpent not just as male but specifically as a pre-Adamite black man, the Louisianan Samuel Cartwright going so far as to call the serpent a "negro gardener". Tennessee clergyman Buckner Payne accepted this view, along with the corollary that as a creature created before Adam, the black figure was subhuman and had no soul." That's some creative reading of the bible, especially for literalists.