Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!

[weltschmerz]

Trump signed a bill allowing coal companies to waste in streams, and also rolled back the Clean Water Rule.

www.nrdc.org/media/2017/170216

President Donald Trump just signed an executive order to roll back President Barack Obama’s clean water rule. That environmental regulation was issued in 2015 to give the federal government authority to limit pollution in major bodies of water, rivers, streams, and wetlands.

www.theverge.com/2017/2/28/14766462/trump-executive-order-clean-water-rule-epa-environment

Fucking asshole.

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2017 17:00:02 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Dec 31, 2017 16:22:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

That doesn't answer the question asked.

Ok let's get back to the start of this, now that the regulation regarding the backflow preventor is removed ,

Do you think that that Manufacture, the Co, that is going to use this product does not inspect it several time before they use it after the last problem??

You think that they would knowingly use a defective valve, that potentiality will cost may lives and billions of $$$$$??

I think they are extremely concerned about the liability, far more than the regulation! 

If they failed to have a third party inspector check the valve,, is the fine going to be billions of $$$$??

 

Not sure that what you or I "think" is that important. Regulations were written in reaction to what actually happened in the past. Do the regulations call on them to do what they previously did not do? If they learned a lesson and are going to do what the regulations say they need to do, what difference does having or not having the regulation make?

[OldCoyote]

Dec 31, 2017 17:57:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 31, 2017 17:00:02 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Ok let's get back to the start of this, now that the regulation regarding the backflow preventor is removed ,

Do you think that that Manufacture, the Co, that is going to use this product does not inspect it several time before they use it after the last problem??

You think that they would knowingly use a defective valve, that potentiality will cost may lives and billions of $$$$$??

I think they are extremely concerned about the liability, far more than the regulation! 

If they failed to have a third party inspector check the valve,, is the fine going to be billions of $$$$??

 

Not sure that what you or I "think" is that important. Regulations were written in reaction to what actually happened in the past. Do the regulations call on them to do what they previously did not do? If they learned a lesson and are going to do what the regulations say they need to do, what difference does having or not having the regulation make?

Or over reaction  or a reaction over nothing if it give some one in government power to feel important.
Or as a myself recent victim of government regulations,, dealing with a local fire dept and a third party county engineering contractor,,   yes, caught in a pissing contest between those two groups!!
The Country hired an outside firm because, well it look like there were too many County people on vaca, sick leave, mental health day, etc, they couldn't get their work done ,,
but they still manage to add more regulations!!  that they don't have enough people to inspect,, In the mean time the fire dept won't approve something until the engineering firm approves something,
that isn't going to approve that until fire dept approve something,, in the mean time the fire inspector moves his office,, no forwarding address, not answering his phone.
When we do get a hold of him well the inspection office has to take time off because some fireman was killed in a hunting accident in Colorado..  then when they do get back to the "new " office,
Well,,, a holiday is coming up there office is going to be closed for another five days!!  So after several trips to the County ,in an attempt to actually catch some one in the office that can point the third party engineering firm in a direction,, Now, you need to remember , our work was completely done,  we did not need to make any changes to anything!!
This business opening was held up for 2 months because of this inspector and their "Regulations"!

I know it is hard for bills to understand,,, but these delays cost tens of thousands of $$$$$ Both in time and no income, 
In lot of cases these small business people can not over come the financial burden imposed on them  these stupid action of of these people that work for the government.
If this was an isolated incident OK, but it is not!

[mroped]

You are liable for your actions only if you break the law/rule. If there is no rule then there is no liability. 
At least that’s the way I can put it to make it as simple as possible.
Regulation is in place to make sure that standards for safety are followed. Remove that and you have no standards at all.
If the oil companies are told that they are free to drill and pump and let know that rules don’t apply to them, you think they will have any concerns for the safety of their workers or of the environment? I think not!
This “morality” high horse is not ridden by people that have in mind just profit margins.

[tskeeter]

Dec 31, 2017 17:57:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 31, 2017 17:00:02 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Ok let's get back to the start of this, now that the regulation regarding the backflow preventor is removed ,

Do you think that that Manufacture, the Co, that is going to use this product does not inspect it several time before they use it after the last problem??

You think that they would knowingly use a defective valve, that potentiality will cost may lives and billions of $$$$$??

I think they are extremely concerned about the liability, far more than the regulation! 

If they failed to have a third party inspector check the valve,, is the fine going to be billions of $$$$??

 

Not sure that what you or I "think" is that important. Regulations were written in reaction to what actually happened in the past. Do the regulations call on them to do what they previously did not do? If they learned a lesson and are going to do what the regulations say they need to do, what difference does having or not having the regulation make?

Regulations are also written to expand the control of government bureaucrats.  The EPA claimed that virtually every body of water was a navigable waterway and subject to their control.  So, the boggy area in your farm field that had a few inches of standing water for a couple of weeks after the snow melt some years would be subject to EPA regulation, EPA testing requirements, EPA reporting requirements, EPA inspection, etc.

Why would the EPA claim such expansive control?  To justify increasing their budgets and staff.  Which, in turn, would be used to justify increasing the compensation of senior EPA managers.  Also, Since most farmers aren’t experts on compliance with EPA regulations, policy, and procedure, they would need to hire environmental compliance experts to avoid large fines by the EPA for heinous crimes like not filing the required report on the mud puddle in the bean field in a timely fashion.  Of course, environmental compliance consulting would be a great opportunity for former EPA employees.

This is a great example of how, left unchecked, government will expand it’s control until virtually all activity is devoted to satisfying government requirements.

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2017 18:53:18 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

... but they still manage to add more regulations!!...
I know it is hard for bills to understand,,, ...

Actually my reading skills are excellent so I do understand that you just threw in this statement about regulations that is totally irrelevant to the rest of your story.

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2017 19:19:42 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Dec 31, 2017 17:57:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not sure that what you or I "think" is that important. Regulations were written in reaction to what actually happened in the past. Do the regulations call on them to do what they previously did not do? If they learned a lesson and are going to do what the regulations say they need to do, what difference does having or not having the regulation make?

Regulations are also written to expand the control of government bureaucrats. ...

And sometimes that is a necessary thing.

[zibazinski]

It's never a necessary thing. Sounds like school admins, coming up with new things to justify their jobs. Makes work for the underlings, that's all. 

[billisonboard]

Least we forget:

[OldCoyote]

Dec 31, 2017 20:33:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Least we forget:

How about when regulations come from fraudulent studies?
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/epa-concedes-we-can-t-produce-all-data-justifying-clean-air-rules

[OldCoyote]

Almost four thousand new regulation for the EPA from Obama,, Wonder how many were crafted under corrupt data or no data?
www.atr.org/nearly-4000-epa-regulations-issued-under-president-obama
 Each one of these cost you, the consumer and taxpayer, when there my have not been anything to back it up,,, just because some one in government wanted to!!!

[OldCoyote]

I am going to say the same thing is going on with the NOAA ,
Many of their studies and reports are juggled and fabricated!
Like I said before where EXACTLY is sea level?  How did they determine it?
How did they duplicate the exact same circumstance to determine how much it has supposedly risen.

[billisonboard]

Dec 31, 2017 22:53:27 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Dec 31, 2017 20:33:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Least we forget:

How about when regulations come from fraudulent studies?
www.cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/epa-concedes-we-can-t-produce-all-data-justifying-clean-air-rules

Interesting stuff to read in detail. Steve Milloy has some interesting connections.

[mroped]

Dec 31, 2017 23:10:23 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I am going to say the same thing is going on with the NOAA ,
Many of their studies and reports are juggled and fabricated!
Like I said before where EXACTLY is sea level?  How did they determine it?
How did they duplicate the exact same circumstance to determine how much it has supposedly risen.

Everybody knows that “science”as we call it is a made up thing and frankly I don’t understand why people keep on mentioning these “scientifical studies” and reports when we have these documents written long ago that guarantee us that nothing will happen as long as we pray.

I was watching something about some Polynesian village that had their huts built on stilts on water and in the last few years the water reached the floor levels on houses that were built 20 years ago so I’d say it’s safe to assume that in their case the levels of the sea are rising. Unless of course they built the floors under water to begin with in which case the sea is dropping right?

[zibazinski]

Or the sand is eroding

[OldCoyote]

Jan 1, 2018 7:44:37 GMT -5 mroped said:

Dec 31, 2017 23:10:23 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

I am going to say the same thing is going on with the NOAA ,
Many of their studies and reports are juggled and fabricated!
Like I said before where EXACTLY is sea level?  How did they determine it?
How did they duplicate the exact same circumstance to determine how much it has supposedly risen.

Everybody knows that “science”as we call it is a made up thing and frankly I don’t understand why people keep on mentioning these “scientifical studies” and reports when we have these documents written long ago that guarantee us that nothing will happen as long as we pray.

I was watching something about some Polynesian village that had their huts built on stilts on water and in the last few years the water reached the floor levels on houses that were built 20 years ago so I’d say it’s safe to assume that in their case the levels of the sea are rising. Unless of course they built the floors under water to begin with in which case the sea is dropping right?

You as a masonry contractor absolutely know the importance of a solid foundation or footing.
Sticks stuck in the mud will most certainly sink into that mud over time!!

[thyme4change]

Dec 31, 2017 18:26:18 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I listen to a podcast by a systems safety engineer. He had a fascinating episode about a few instances where safety regulations caused disasters. I'll have to find it because he goes into the topic of complex systems in a really accessible way. I'm all for greater safety but I'd like to see what they are repealing and the logic behind it.

Are you trying to tell me that people aren't perfect? Shit.

[Virgil Showlion]

What a wonderful, simple, manageable world we'd live in if either "Establishing regulations and not repealing existing regulations is a good thing." or "Repealing existing regulations and not establishing new ones is a good thing." were true.

[mroped]

Jan 1, 2018 10:53:56 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Jan 1, 2018 7:44:37 GMT -5 mroped said:

You as a masonry contractor absolutely know the importance of a solid foundation or footing.
Sticks stuck in the mud will most certainly sink into that mud over time!!

Building shelter is one of the primordial occupations and it is safe to assume that things have evolved in time. Do you think for any reason at all or assume that those people don’t know how to build proper shelter even after doing it for so many generations?
I believe that it would be more fit to admit that the effects of industrialization are finally catching up with us after a couple centuries of constant pushing the boundaries.
You can’t heat a room in an instant, it takes a while for the temperature to rise and show some effect. Apply that logic to the Earth as an entirety and voila!

[zibazinski]

One natural eruption causes more issues than people do.

[mroped]

Nobody is claiming that people and their actions are the only reason for global warming but that we are a big contributors to that and by controlling our actions we could manage not to upset the balance.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 1, 2018 18:38:57 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

One natural eruption causes more issues than people do.

Lol!
 You really bought the Republican talking points, didn't you? Didn't even check.

No matter how you look at it, even during massive eruptions, mankind still emits much more carbon dioxide than volcanoes. In total, volcanoes barely emit 1% of mankind’s emissions. By itself, the US emits ten times more CO2 than volcanoes do.

www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/volcano-co2-humans-emissions-16102017/

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/

[tskeeter]

Dec 31, 2017 19:54:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Dec 31, 2017 19:19:42 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Regulations are also written to expand the control of government bureaucrats. ...

And sometimes that is a necessary thing.

But, not in every case.  Remember, one of our founding fathers biggest fears was a gigantic, over-reaching federal government.  A fear that is appearing more and more, to be justified.

[tskeeter]

Jan 1, 2018 22:46:49 GMT -5 mroped said:

Nobody is claiming that people and their actions are the only reason for global warming but that we are a big contributors to that and by controlling our actions we could manage not to upset the balance.

Really?  Nobody?

That’s not the impression I get.  The only place I see natural climate change raised as a factor is in information from climate change naysayers.

I think a good gauge would be to ask 100 middle school students whether climate change is a natural or a man made phenomenon.  My guess is that only one or two would say climate change is normal and natural.  The rest would say that climate change is caused completely by humans.

[OldCoyote]

Jan 1, 2018 23:31:33 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 1, 2018 18:38:57 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

One natural eruption causes more issues than people do.

Lol!
 You really bought the Republican talking points, didn't you? Didn't even check.

No matter how you look at it, even during massive eruptions, mankind still emits much more carbon dioxide than volcanoes. In total, volcanoes barely emit 1% of mankind’s emissions. By itself, the US emits ten times more CO2 than volcanoes do.

www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/volcano-co2-humans-emissions-16102017/

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/

24 billion tons, huh!
www.google.com/search?q=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&oq=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.19116j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
According to this there a little over a billion cars on the road world wide,  Each one would have to farts 24 tons of carbon,,   That too exhausting to think about.

Maybe the scientist in their effort to push Global Warming may have "Mistakenly add too many 0000!

[OldCoyote]

Jan 1, 2018 15:52:51 GMT -5 mroped said:

Jan 1, 2018 10:53:56 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

You as a masonry contractor absolutely know the importance of a solid foundation or footing.
Sticks stuck in the mud will most certainly sink into that mud over time!!

Building shelter is one of the primordial occupations and it is safe to assume that things have evolved in time. Do you think for any reason at all or assume that those people don’t know how to build proper shelter even after doing it for so many generations?
I believe that it would be more fit to admit that the effects of industrialization are finally catching up with us after a couple centuries of constant pushing the boundaries.
You can’t heat a room in an instant, it takes a while for the temperature to rise and show some effect. Apply that logic to the Earth as an entirety and voila!

I thought this was about a grass hut with sticks stuck in the water.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 2, 2018 0:01:27 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Jan 1, 2018 23:31:33 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Lol!
 You really bought the Republican talking points, didn't you? Didn't even check.

No matter how you look at it, even during massive eruptions, mankind still emits much more carbon dioxide than volcanoes. In total, volcanoes barely emit 1% of mankind’s emissions. By itself, the US emits ten times more CO2 than volcanoes do.

www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/volcano-co2-humans-emissions-16102017/

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/

24 billion tons, huh!
www.google.com/search?q=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&oq=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.19116j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
According to this there a little over a billion cars on the road world wide,  Each one would have to farts 24 tons of carbon,,   That too exhausting to think about.

Maybe the scientist in their effort to push Global Warming may have "Mistakenly add too many 0000!

"According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors."

Missed that, didn't you?  The bit about industrial activities.  Try again.

[OldCoyote]

Jan 2, 2018 0:14:18 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 2, 2018 0:01:27 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

24 billion tons, huh!
www.google.com/search?q=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&oq=total+number+of+cars+in+the+world&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.19116j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
According to this there a little over a billion cars on the road world wide,  Each one would have to farts 24 tons of carbon,,   That too exhausting to think about.

Maybe the scientist in their effort to push Global Warming may have "Mistakenly add too many 0000!

"According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors."

Missed that, didn't you?  The bit about industrial activities.  Try again.

I didn't miss that at all, If the scientific community can be bias, and fake numbers , Hey so can I!
If their entire funding wasn't based on them writing studies showing things like "ALL" the Arctic ice will be gone by 2012,, I might believe a little more of it... But until then??

[mroped]

Jan 1, 2018 23:48:09 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Dec 31, 2017 19:54:48 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But, not in every case.  Remember, one of our founding fathers biggest fears was a gigantic, over-reaching federal government.  A fear that is appearing more and more, to be justified.

“We have nothing to fear but fear itself!”

I understand the feeling of fearing your government possibly more than anybody on this board but don’t you think that in the US case is just a bit of paranoia? Moreover, because of the freedoms and liberties that we are afforded through the Constitution we tend sometimes to manifest anarchyst tendencies. We get to a point where in the interest of pursuing our happiness we discard the well being of others because well, it’s not our problem!
Now, imagine where we get if everyone sees the issue under the same light!

[weltschmerz]

Jan 2, 2018 0:38:45 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Jan 2, 2018 0:14:18 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

"According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors."

Missed that, didn't you?  The bit about industrial activities.  Try again.

I didn't miss that at all, If the scientific community can be bias, and fake numbers , Hey so can I!
If their entire funding wasn't based on them writing studies showing things like "ALL" the Arctic ice will be gone by 2012,, I might believe a little more of it... But until then??

Trump has taught you well.
Funny how you believe the studies funded by Big Oil and other polluters.

They're not bias [sic] at all.