The Nature of True Religion

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2017 8:14:32 GMT -5 oped said:

OMG. Abortion and homosexuality were never mentioned in the Bible. 

Well... much as I hate to support Virgil's side... they actually were.

For abortion there is:
"Thou shalt not kill" From the 10 Suggestions (if you believe that life begins with the meeting of egg and sperm... well... it's killing to stop it any time after that happens)
And there's also: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb" from Psalms (and many believe that it's wrong to interfere with God's work... even the work he's supposedly doing in a person's womb)

For homosexuality there is:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." from Leviticus

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2017 10:49:59 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 31, 2017 8:06:45 GMT -5 oped said:

So you do embrace theocracy. 

I embrace its inevitability.

It's not a Christian's personal responsibility to bring it about. Christ will accomplish this at His second coming.

A Christian's responsibilities are those laid out by the Bible: to live lawfully (by the whole Law of God and the laws of society [where they don't conflict with the Law of God]), respect authority, support the work of the Church (which has numerous mandates), worship God, serve as an ambassador for Christ, grow in grace and knowledge, strive wholeheartedly for self-improvement, love justice and mercy, care for one's fellow man, any many other things besides.

Unless Christianity was just made up about 2,000-odd years ago... like Christians believe all the other religions are made up (except Judaism... Christians came from a Jew {Jesus was Jewish}... so they grudgingly accept them as a "Real" religion too... they just "don't believe correctly... because they haven't accepted the changes")

[thyme4change]

Dec 31, 2017 21:19:50 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 31, 2017 8:14:32 GMT -5 oped said:

OMG. Abortion and homosexuality were never mentioned in the Bible. 

Well... much as I hate to support Virgil's side... they actually were.


For homosexuality there is:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." from Leviticus

Levitivus only applies to people who don't eat bacon. If you are pushing for anti-gay laws, then you should also be pushing for kosher to be mandatory.

Unless, of course, your religion dictates if YOU are kosher, and your religion dictates if YOU are going to refrain from gay sex. Then you don't need laws, because others can practice their own religion, or lack there-of.

[Opti]

Dec 31, 2017 21:19:50 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 31, 2017 8:14:32 GMT -5 oped said:

OMG. Abortion and homosexuality were never mentioned in the Bible. 

Well... much as I hate to support Virgil's side... they actually were.

For abortion there is:
"Thou shalt not kill" From the 10 Suggestions (if you believe that life begins with the meeting of egg and sperm... well... it's killing to stop it any time after that happens)
And there's also: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb" from Psalms (and many believe that it's wrong to interfere with God's work... even the work he's supposedly doing in a person's womb)

For homosexuality there is:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." from Leviticus

No, the commandment does not apply to abortion only already born entities.

I can not find it as no current concordance lists it anymore, but in the bible in the old testament there is actually a proscription on terminating a pregnancy based on the gender. I am not sure, but I think it was three months if it was a boy and six months if it was a girl, so I totally disagree that abortion is prohibited biblically.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 1, 2018 11:15:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

No, the commandment does not apply to abortion only already born entities.

I can not find it as no current concordance lists it anymore, but in the bible in the old testament there is actually a proscription on terminating a pregnancy based on the gender. I am not sure, but I think it was three months if it was a boy and six months if it was a girl, so I totally disagree that abortion is prohibited biblically.

Where on Earth did you get this from?

You may be thinking of something in the Talmud (a massive Jewish compendium of laws that has nothing to do with the Old Testament or Christianity, and in fact was condemned in the strongest possible terms by Christ and his disciples), but I'm fairly certain the Talmud permits abortion only to prevent fatal harm to the mother, and it makes no distinction based on sex.

Besides this, there was no reliable way to determine the sex of an unborn child in the ancient world.

This sounds like a complete fabrication to me.

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 31, 2017 21:23:38 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Christ will accomplish this at His second coming.

Unless Christianity was just made up about 2,000-odd years ago...

Correct. If the prophecies concerning Christ's return fail, it isn't in my or anyone else's power to somehow bring them about.

Contrast this to Islam, where Islamic prophecy states that it will be mankind (followers of Islam), under the direction of God, that will subdue and unify the whole Earth, not God Himself.

Secularists and progressivists especially love to believe the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) are essentially the same. The truth is that their similarities are superficial compared to their differences.

[Deleted]

Lie with a man as a woman is about subjugation and control, not intercourse.

And even if you disagree in interpretation, it’s Leviticus. Which calls for stoning, selling your daughters and killing those who would try to turn you against god, etc. you really don’t want all of Leviticus coming back.

Abortion has never been treated as murder. Never. Anywhere in history. Not in the Bible. Not historically by religion. Nowhere.

[Deleted]

Abortion is not mentioned specifically at all, so no gender differences. Maybe you are thinking if the differences in tones after childbirth a woman was considered unclean historically, which was twice as long with a girl.... ?

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 1, 2018 12:24:53 GMT -5 oped said:

Lie with a man as a woman is about subjugation and control, not intercourse. 

If you deign to read the whitepaper by Dr. Gagnon, he invests considerable time debunking this and other fallacies (e.g. the prohibition only pertains to ritual sex, the prohibition only pertains to individuals who "aren't gay", etc.)  That's precisely its value as a resource. It's a thorough debunking of the whole spectrum of counterclaims, intended for a skeptical audience.

If I stand before Christ at the Judgment and He tells me, "You're totally wrong about homosexuality," my response will surely be, "Forgive me. I can't understand. Please teach me."  Even if we starkly disagree on how God sees homosexuality now, perhaps we can agree to adopt the above humble attitude if and when we find ourselves facing Him in the Judgment. Let it be one positive thing we take away from this discussion.

[Deleted]

Wow. You believe sources that support your bias. I'm shocked. What a revelation. 

If God or Christ turns out to be a being which requires a defense of my life, i'm pretty sure that, of those created in his image, it will be more of Kohlberg morality discussion than a checklist of dids and did nots. Ie. what answers you give won't mean as much as the justification of those answers.

So. would I rather be standing before God and defending my tortured adherence to a vaguely stated and translated part of the bible which has been widely abandoned, and have God say, but what about all the times I told you, in broad strokes, to treat others with kindness, that their lives were not yours to judge, that love was the way and the means....

Or would I rather stand before God and defend my adherence to the broad strokes of treating others with kindness and nonjudgement and perpetuating love... and explain how any other choice was made on the basis of that foundation... 

I'm ok with my way... 

Would I be humble if God told me homosexuals are yicky... like pork... and I should have been eschewing them all this time.... probably not. But I don't think that will be a problem. 

[weltschmerz]

"If I stand before Christ at the Judgment and He tells me, "You're totally wrong about homosexuality," my response will surely be, "Forgive me. I can't understand. Please teach me."  Even if we starkly disagree on how God sees homosexuality now, perhaps we can agree to adopt the above humble attitude if and when we find ourselves facing Him in the Judgment. Let it be one positive thing we take away from this discussion."


It's just as likely that you'll be standing before a multi-limbed Elephant God, and he is pissed, because you've been eating beef all this time.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 1, 2018 13:40:27 GMT -5 oped said:

So. would I rather be standing before God and defending my tortured adherence to a vaguely stated and translated part of the bible which has been widely abandoned, and have God say, but what about all the times I told you, in broad strokes, to treat others with kindness, that their lives were not yours to judge, that love was the way and the means....

Suffice it to say there's nothing vague about the prohibition, and that part of treating others with kindness is instructing them in the Law of God, which is the Law of liberty.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2018 11:02:42 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 31, 2017 21:19:50 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Well... much as I hate to support Virgil's side... they actually were.


For homosexuality there is:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." from Leviticus

Levitivus only applies to people who don't eat bacon. If you are pushing for anti-gay laws, then you should also be pushing for kosher to be mandatory.

Unless, of course, your religion dictates if YOU are kosher, and your religion dictates if YOU are going to refrain from gay sex. Then you don't need laws, because others can practice their own religion, or lack there-of.

How does "shall not lie with man as with woman" apply to bacon? Or do you mean it only applies to Kosher Jews?

I wasn't arguing against homosexuality. I was simply rebutting the foolish claim that "Abortion and homosexuality were never mentioned in the Bible." The Old Testament (including Leviticus) IS part of the Bible.

So... I'm not saying that they should FOLLOW Leviticus... I'm just saying that it IS in the Bible.

Christians are well known for cherry picking what they do and don't want to follow from the Bible. My favorite one is their "Marriage is 1 man + 1 woman" ignorance of Biblical reality... Multiple wives are represented as not only allowed, but in some cases forced upon people!

Example: (Matthew 22:24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There's no "but don't if he is already married" exemption. It says "shall". Period. Not "may", not "can", not "should"... but "shall". And Jesus (supposedly, according to Matthew) doesn't contradict the rule because... (Matthew 22:29-30) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. states that Heaven is not like Earth, and no one will be married to anyone, and all will be angels.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2018 11:15:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

Dec 31, 2017 21:19:50 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Well... much as I hate to support Virgil's side... they actually were.

For abortion there is:
"Thou shalt not kill" From the 10 Suggestions (if you believe that life begins with the meeting of egg and sperm... well... it's killing to stop it any time after that happens)
And there's also: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb" from Psalms (and many believe that it's wrong to interfere with God's work... even the work he's supposedly doing in a person's womb)

For homosexuality there is:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." from Leviticus

No, the commandment does not apply to abortion only already born entities.

I can not find it as no current concordance lists it anymore, but in the bible in the old testament there is actually a proscription on terminating a pregnancy based on the gender. I am not sure, but I think it was three months if it was a boy and six months if it was a girl, so I totally disagree that abortion is prohibited biblically.

You must have missed the part that I underlined... Remember, some sects of Christianity believe that life begins at conception. I'm not saying that you or I need to believe this... only that some Christians do. That's who the "if you believe" in the underlined referred to.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2018 12:13:53 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 31, 2017 21:23:38 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Unless Christianity was just made up about 2,000-odd years ago...

Correct. If the prophecies concerning Christ's return fail, it isn't in my or anyone else's power to somehow bring them about.

Contrast this to Islam, where Islamic prophecy states that it will be mankind (followers of Islam), under the direction of God, that will subdue and unify the whole Earth, not God Himself.

Secularists and progressivists especially love to believe the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) are essentially the same. The truth is that their similarities are superficial compared to their differences.

Yeah, but if God doesn't actually exist, theirs fails too.

[kittensaver]

Jan 1, 2018 21:12:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 1, 2018 12:13:53 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Yeah, but if God doesn't actually exist, theirs fails too.

"I do not object to the concept of a deity, but I am baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." ~ Dr. Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory

[Deleted]

Jan 2, 2018 14:04:14 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Jan 1, 2018 21:12:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Yeah, but if God doesn't actually exist, theirs fails too.

"I do not object to the concept of a deity, but I am baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." ~ Dr. Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory

[swamp]

Jan 1, 2018 16:35:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 1, 2018 13:40:27 GMT -5 oped said:

So. would I rather be standing before God and defending my tortured adherence to a vaguely stated and translated part of the bible which has been widely abandoned, and have God say, but what about all the times I told you, in broad strokes, to treat others with kindness, that their lives were not yours to judge, that love was the way and the means....

Suffice it to say there's nothing vague about the prohibition, and that part of treating others with kindness is instructing them in the Law of God, which is the Law of liberty.

Telling someone they are a pervert doomed to hell for engaging in intimate acts with someone they love isn't my idea of kindness.  

[mroped]

“ETA: Many Christians don't realize that Christ was the God of the Old Testament. The Rock that followed Israel. The One who spoke with Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Great I AM.

The Bible tells us all of this, but many churches simply don't teach“

Don’t take this the wrong way Virgil but I believe you are...well, wrong!
If your claim is true then you just reduced the Holly Trinity to a Holly Duality and if I’m not mistaking the whole ideology of Christianity revolves around the Trinity.
That right there is in fact the one mistake that most Evangelists make: turning Father AND Son into Father/Son(as in just one individual/supreme being)
Moreover, Jesus never-ever had declared that he is God and he never uttered the expression “My Father...”. It is always “Our Father...or Our Lord...”
In fact Jesus never declared or admitted that he is the Son of God.
Again, “Our Father...” not “My”! That is explained by the fact that God created man on his own image therefore all of us are God’s creation so “Our...”

Those that might suggest/claim that religion is used to indoctrinate/control might have a valid point and you just made it “...the Bible tells us all of this, but many churches simply don’t teach”
People congregate with the intent of discussion and debate of a subject, in our case faith. There is always that someone that runs the show! In our case, the priest/pastor. If such a person(priest/pastor) doesn’t use the Bible for the teachings then maybe the church that they are running is not a Christian church?! Maybe they are using Mahabharata in which case they would be Hindu?!
And if they use the Bible, I think is safe to assume that everyone can read and educate themselves and confront the mischievous priest about the mishap

[Opti]

Jan 1, 2018 21:10:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 1, 2018 11:15:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

No, the commandment does not apply to abortion only already born entities.

I can not find it as no current concordance lists it anymore, but in the bible in the old testament there is actually a proscription on terminating a pregnancy based on the gender. I am not sure, but I think it was three months if it was a boy and six months if it was a girl, so I totally disagree that abortion is prohibited biblically.

You must have missed the part that I underlined... Remember, some sects of Christianity believe that life begins at conception. I'm not saying that you or I need to believe this... only that some Christians do. That's who the "if you believe" in the underlined referred to.

What sects of Christianity believe has little to do with what the ten commandments mean.

If they believe life begins at conception, that is their choice. But it is not biblical nor is the commandment about any unborn humans or fish, etc.

[Opti]

Jan 1, 2018 11:59:32 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 1, 2018 11:15:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

No, the commandment does not apply to abortion only already born entities.

I can not find it as no current concordance lists it anymore, but in the bible in the old testament there is actually a proscription on terminating a pregnancy based on the gender. I am not sure, but I think it was three months if it was a boy and six months if it was a girl, so I totally disagree that abortion is prohibited biblically.

Where on Earth did you get this from?

You may be thinking of something in the Talmud (a massive Jewish compendium of laws that has nothing to do with the Old Testament or Christianity, and in fact was condemned in the strongest possible terms by Christ and his disciples), but I'm fairly certain the Talmud permits abortion only to prevent fatal harm to the mother, and it makes no distinction based on sex.

Besides this, there was no reliable way to determine the sex of an unborn child in the ancient world.

This sounds like a complete fabrication to me.

No I am thinking of the bible. I found it in my own copy years ago.

[Virgil Showlion]

mroped, you bring up quite a few different points, some of them scriptural, some of them not. Christ's divinity is indeed asserted in scripture; this article provides an abridged basis for this doctrine. It also explains why Christ asserts that His Father is also our Father; that Christ is our elder brother.

I don't understand your argument in the final paragraph. If you're wondering why dozens of churches, all claiming to be Christian, have such varied doctrines, it's because very few churches teach strictly from the Bible. Most have their own catechisms, oral traditions, and supplementary works built up over centuries. Many have imported and syncretized pagan beliefs (the Trinity being one example) for historical reasons. And many ignore scriptures that disprove their teachings on key issues (this is not to say that Christians mustn't be mindful of which verses may be contested in some manuscripts, and why).

There is no single worldly organization that defines God's Church. Any organization devoted to His scriptures, having the characteristics laid out in scripture, performing the work the church is commissioned to perform by scripture, practicing the church government described in scripture, upholding and practicing God's Laws, and keeping God's Sabbaths, is part of the Church--the Body of Christ--with Christ as the head. I don't rightly know how many groups and organizations this comprises, but God certainly does.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 2, 2018 15:48:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jan 1, 2018 11:59:32 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Where on Earth did you get this from?

You may be thinking of something in the Talmud (a massive Jewish compendium of laws that has nothing to do with the Old Testament or Christianity, and in fact was condemned in the strongest possible terms by Christ and his disciples), but I'm fairly certain the Talmud permits abortion only to prevent fatal harm to the mother, and it makes no distinction based on sex.

Besides this, there was no reliable way to determine the sex of an unborn child in the ancient world.

This sounds like a complete fabrication to me.

No I am thinking of the bible. I found it in my own copy years ago.

Either you own a copy of the Bible I've never heard of or you're mistaken.

Most "Bible permits abortion" arguments rest on the fact that a woman convicted of a capital crime would be put to death regardless of whether she was pregnant, which some claim is proof the fetus has no inherent value as a human being. This argument is erroneous for any number of reasons, which you can look up in any thorough study of the topic.

[mroped]

Your article Virgil is of religious nature so of course will be asserting the points of the religion itself. I wouldn’t expect an Islamic article to declare that Mohammed did not communicate with God because that would basically undermine the faith itself.
And more, the only proof that it brings forth are excerpts from the Bible itself and even those are interpreted to such extent as to proove the point of Jesus’s descendence from God.
Making use of such proof and really truly believing in it without a doubt it’s what would be called indoctrination.
Personaly I don’t believe in the existence of a true, perfect or near perfect religion. People make of it what they see fit as

Just as a fun fact, as you know I grew up in communism and the everyday shpill was that Comunism is the greatest, the perfect society and we should ever be so proud for growing up in it and be part of the building process as the complete success of it rests upon us and our efforts. And I truly believed that! Without a question or a shadow of a doubt!
But then one day, I grew up and started questioning the validity of my beliefs and found out that most of what I believed in was based on false statements and propaganda.
But then how come that everything I was reading about it was supporting the propaganda?
Never to this day have I figured that one out!

True Religion? Nah! Can’t believe everything you hear but you can lead a life to the best of your abilities whatever they may be!

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 2, 2018 14:51:02 GMT -5 swamp said:

Jan 1, 2018 16:35:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Suffice it to say there's nothing vague about the prohibition, and that part of treating others with kindness is instructing them in the Law of God, which is the Law of liberty.

Telling someone they are a pervert doomed to hell for engaging in intimate acts with someone they love isn't my idea of kindness. 

I'm not condemning anybody to Hell.

There will come a time they'll be taught by Christ personally that homosexuality is unlawful and deeply harmful, and given an opportunity to repent. I sincerely believe most will do so when confronted with the truth. Those who repent of wrongdoing will inherit eternal life. Those few who are utterly incorrigible will be judged by Christ (according to His Word) and destroyed in Hellfire. Not even their memory will persist; it will be as though they'd never existed. Scripture makes all of this very plain. These aren't my judgments.

Suppose you believed as I do that there is a judgment and a resurrection to eternal life. What kindness is there in misleading people, countenancing evil, lying and flattering? If a man is heading for a ditch and doesn't know it, do we love him by giving him a smile and a friendly wave, or do we yell at him that there's a ditch and he needs to turn around? Homosexuality tends to get a lot of attention in front of secular audiences because the secular world portrays it as a good and wonderful thing, but there are many kinds of sin (which is lawlessness) and Christians need to eschew all of them.

Romans 1, 26-32 (JKV):

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The NIV translates verse 32 as "who, knowing the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also approve of those who practice them."

The ASV translates it as "who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them."

A Christian (one truly "knowing the ordinance of God"--somebody who ought to know better) who countenances or tolerates evil is by no means going to enter the Kingdom of God. We do nobody any favours, least of all ourselves, by lying to our fellow man for sake of his feelings. Yet another reason why Richard's puffball conception of religion profoundly misses the mark.

[Virgil Showlion]

mroped: I'm simply saying that if we accept the Bible as a scriptural authority, it can be used to prove Christ's divinity. You seemed to be arguing against this in your previous post.

[weltschmerz]

"I'm not condemning anybody to Hell.



There will come a time they'll be taught by Christ personally that homosexuality is unlawful and deeply harmful, and given an opportunity to repent. I sincerely believe most will do so when confronted with the truth. Those who repent of wrongdoing will inherit eternal life. Those few who are utterly incorrigible will be judged by Christ (according to His Word) and destroyed in Hellfire. Not even their memory will persist; it will be as though they'd never existed. Scripture makes all of this very plain. These aren't my judgments."
--------------------
Your opinion,  Not fact.
Don't speak like it's fact.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 2, 2018 18:07:13 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Your opinion,  Not fact.
Don't speak like it's fact.

If I asked you to preface everything I don't consider factual with "I believe...", would you honour the request?

The only use of prefacing a statement with "In my opinion..." or "I believe..." is to convey uncertainty or subjectivity.

[weltschmerz]

When I say Trump is an asshole, it's FACT, Virgil.

I can prove it all kinds of ways.

I have yet to see any proof that Jesus will meet me at the Pearly gates to question my sexuality.

If you have proof of this, please post it.

[Deleted]

Jan 1, 2018 16:35:20 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 1, 2018 13:40:27 GMT -5 oped said:

So. would I rather be standing before God and defending my tortured adherence to a vaguely stated and translated part of the bible which has been widely abandoned, and have God say, but what about all the times I told you, in broad strokes, to treat others with kindness, that their lives were not yours to judge, that love was the way and the means....

Suffice it to say there's nothing vague about the prohibition, and that part of treating others with kindness is instructing them in the Law of God, which is the Law of liberty.

I've been thinking about this post a lot... 

And it finally dawned on me what was wrong with it: There is no "Liberty" with a belief in God. Liberty is the ability to do as you see right, and true, and good, and just... without fear of repercussion by the governing body (at least so long as you don't deprive others of the same ability for themselves). "God's" Law (which a bunch of old men made up) is "Do it my way, or you're fucked... even though I gave you the desire to do it the way I don't approve of, and you don't have any choice in the matter of having those urges."