How the Democrats blew defeating the tax reform bill

[dezii]

Dec 19, 2017 7:04:25 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Dec 19, 2017 1:44:52 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it's the best healthcare plan that the GOP ever came up with.

Darn, there is some truth there, if you believe the government should furnish and or subsidize everybody's wants.

When needed ...yup....

[dondub]

I'm sorry, but could I have a link to bankruptcies being the reason for this?
I always thought it was so the uninsured had insurance.
Evidently the Democrats passed it to pad the doctor's and hospital's bottom line and had nothing to do with citizen's rights to healthcare after all.



If the uninsured have insurance they don't need 'free' which caused bancos. I have to go right now but will look for something later.

[dondub]

VB,

Found numerous links to a sharp decline in personal bankruptcies. A large percentage of same, prior to the ACA, were medical in nature.

  Was unable to locate any re: bancos of hospitals, clinics, and doctors that were due to offering free care to the uninsured. I read a couple articles years back that

documented this. I guess you can ruminate on it and come to some conclusion there may be truth in my assertion.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 19, 2017 12:58:47 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh, I’m going to make out great. I’m also pretty much decided to suck as much out of this failing system as I can on the way down. I’ll also be talking to the parental unit about increasing lifetime restructuring which is bound to change as the estate tax does. 

Ill be ready. And I’ve decided we are all I care about. 

that is the only way i can deal with the selfishness.  suck as much money as i can out of the system and sit back on a warm beach in Europe and watch it all go to hell.  sorry, but i gave 40 years of my sweat to make this country and my businesses in it as egalitarian as possible.  all for naught.  the selfish bastards win.

this is how i repay them.

[b2r]

By all means don't help your local community!

[djAdvocate]

Dec 19, 2017 14:49:51 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Dec 19, 2017 13:37:34 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Per the calculator above I will be saving (by not itemizing my deduction) about 2K a year.

I think I'm going to take that extra 2K and buy some school supplies for all of those poor teachers that are no longer able to write off their classroom expenses. Or did that change?  And if it didn't, how is that supposed to help the middle class?

GREAT!  this is how it should work.  you should keep more of your money, and decide what you want to support

because, you know, community goals don't actually matter any more. 

[djAdvocate]

Dec 19, 2017 20:46:44 GMT -5 b2r said:

By all means don't help you local community!

i have to laugh at this in light of the post i made BEFORE reading it.

[Value Buy]

www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/tax-bill-gives-americans-cash-christmas-present-they-really-want/ar-BBH2Tlz?li=BBnb7Kz

Excerpt from the middle of the article:

These opponents are either accidentally or purposely overlooking the bill’s multiple provisions that offer significant tax cuts to ordinary Americans.
Start with the bill’s doubling of the income threshold under which American families pay zero tax at all on earnings up to $24,000. Then look at its doubling of the child tax credit to $2,000, and the provision to make the first $1,400 of it refundable. This is a major benefit for families, increasing the proportion of the population that pays no tax even further.

Working families will also significantly benefit from the elimination of the 15 percent tax bracket, which currently starts at just $18,650 of earned family income, in favor of a vastly expanded 12 percent rate that will extend all the way to $77,400. The bill’s provisions, taken together, will halve the tax burden for the average family earning $75,000.

Critics of the bill try to skate around these benefits by pointing out that the rich will see a bigger tax cut. But this argument overlooks the fact that the rich pay far more in taxes than ordinary Americans. In fact, the top 1 percent of taxpayers pay nearly half of all income taxes. So it goes without saying that a 5 percent tax cut on $1 million is obviously a lot more than a 5 percent tax cut on $50,000.



 however, middle- and working-class Americans – roughly two-thirds of whom cannot cover an unexpected $400 expense – will benefit more from the tax bill than wealthier Americans.

But even in proportional terms, the middle class gets a bigger tax cut than the wealthy. Even according to the left wing Tax Policy Center, the middle class will see their share of federal taxes fall; whereas the wealthy will see their share of total taxes paid rise (even though both groups get a cut in absolute terms). In other words, this bill will make the tax code more progressive, not less.

[zibazinski]

Well, if you don’t treat the uninsured, you won’t go into bankruptcy. Whose brilliant idea was it to force medical facilities to treat people for free anyway? Medical practitioners with offices aren’t forced to. Why stick hospitals with uncollectable bills?

[Deleted]

Because we've decided not to let people just die in the street? 

[zibazinski]

Well, then whoever decided that needs to step up to the plate and save the hospitals that go belly up due to treating people with no insurance. Hospitals shouldn’t have to close because they’re forced to treat for free.

[Deleted]

Except they HAD to have insurance, or at least pay into the system... now they can just suck the teet.

[zibazinski]

Paying a few hundred dollars fine does not pay for an aspirin in the hospital. My fine would be less than one months insurance premium.

[Value Buy]

www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/tax-bill-gives-americans-cash-christmas-present-they-really-want/ar-BBH2Tlz?li=BBnb7Kz

If you check in the middle of this article it talks about the middle class and exactly what they are getting. Many lower earning families will now be paying no federal taxes due to the higher minimum earning requirement. Even after that number is reached anything over that is taxed at 12% instead of 15%. Most of this category never filed the long form with all the deductions anyway, because they could not reach the deduction total threshold.
What the article never touch on is who are these taxpayers in real life?
Do you realize many are of minority population numbers?
The lower earning brackets have large numbers of black and Hispanic families who are struggling to pay bills day to day.
It is surprising the democrats did not participate in this reform as it will help probably more of their constituency than Republican ones in these brackets.
Yes the rich get their 5% cut, but the people who need it got their 5% cut too, as well as the millions who will get a 100% cut in their tax bill.
Sidenote:
Black unemployment is now at a 17 year low
Hispanic unemployment at record lows
Guess who is going to receive a sizeable tax cut.

[tbop77]

Dec 19, 2017 22:58:06 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, if you don’t treat the uninsured, you won’t go into bankruptcy. Whose brilliant idea was it to force medical facilities to treat people for free anyway? Medical practitioners with offices aren’t forced to. Why stick hospitals with uncollectable bills?

www.salon.com/2012/07/05/reagans_healthcare_mandate/

Your hero Ronald Regan

And premiums have been on the rise ever since. 

[zibazinski]

Well that can and should be undone

[tbop77]

And therein lies the problem....the medical industry was socialized in the 80's. They don't have the guts to do what you said. 

Simply a numbers game, if you pass a law that hospital have to treat everyone...then everyone should have to be covered. Otherwise, we are where we are today.

Write your Congressman, Zib!

[zibazinski]

You mean the person with the Cadillac plan that keeps it forever at taxpayers expense? Like they care ...

[tbop77]

Dec 20, 2017 7:57:59 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

You mean the person with the Cadillac plan that keeps it forever at taxpayers expense? Like they care ...

Bingo! The same ones that are celebrating getting rid of "OBAMA" mandate in their give away to the rich without a second thought about the consequences. Just like the '80's when RR did it! GREED IS GOOD!!!

[b2r]

It wasn't for lack of trying. Rosie Odonnell offered $2 mil each to Sen. Susan Collins and Sen. Jeff Flake's NO vote...

[djAdvocate]

Dec 20, 2017 9:55:01 GMT -5 b2r said:

It wasn't for lack of trying. Rosie Odonnell offered $2 mil each to Sen. Susan Collins and Sen. Jeff Flake's NO vote...

a pittance.  they can get more from their handlers.

[djAdvocate]

Dec 20, 2017 7:24:01 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well that can and should be undone

nobody is talking about that, though, are they?

think about that.

[hurley1980]

Dec 19, 2017 20:45:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Dec 19, 2017 12:58:47 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh, I’m going to make out great. I’m also pretty much decided to suck as much out of this failing system as I can on the way down. I’ll also be talking to the parental unit about increasing lifetime restructuring which is bound to change as the estate tax does. 

Ill be ready. And I’ve decided we are all I care about. 

that is the only way i can deal with the selfishness.  suck as much money as i can out of the system and sit back on a warm beach in Europe and watch it all go to hell.  sorry, but i gave 40 years of my sweat to make this country and my businesses in it as egalitarian as possible.  all for naught.  the selfish bastards win.

this is how i repay them.

I wish I was able to do this!  I've put 20 years in already, but thanks to the rising retirement age, and most likely non existent SS in the future, I have at least 30 more years of working before I will be able to say Eff off and leave this place.  I'm hoping the country will manage to stay in somewhat decent shape until then.

[thyme4change]

Once we decided "insurance" should pay for every sniffle, we socialized the cost of medical care - through corporations, not government. We left a bunch of people out, and allowed corporate America to make large profits out of that system. Our insurance rates are based on the medical costs of all the people in our pool, in our area, and across the country - insured or not.

[happyhoix]

Dec 19, 2017 23:05:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, then whoever decided that needs to step up to the plate and save the hospitals that go belly up due to treating people with no insurance. Hospitals shouldn’t have to close because they’re forced to treat for free.

So when a millennial who decided he didn't need insurance because he's young and healthy crashes his motorcycle and ends up in a coma, it's ok for the ER to drag him out to the curb until his friends and family can come up with enough cash to put a down payment towards his medical expenses?

For a country that's supposedly based on Christian principles, that might cause a few moral qualms, but if capitalism can beat religious beliefs, I guess it would work.

[dondub]

Secular nation!

[djAdvocate]

Dec 21, 2017 16:31:53 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Dec 19, 2017 23:05:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, then whoever decided that needs to step up to the plate and save the hospitals that go belly up due to treating people with no insurance. Hospitals shouldn’t have to close because they’re forced to treat for free.

So when a millennial who decided he didn't need insurance because he's young and healthy crashes his motorcycle and ends up in a coma, it's ok for the ER to drag him out to the curb until his friends and family can come up with enough cash to put a down payment towards his medical expenses?

For a country that's supposedly based on Christian principles, that might cause a few moral qualms, but if capitalism can beat religious beliefs, I guess it would work.

this is precisely the argument that compassionate conservatives made, and that Reagan acceded to, before they...you know- jettisoned their compassion because it's just not convenient enough, i guess?

[zibazinski]

I bet. Lawmakers must be on the same plan they forced others to be on.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2017 17:05:22 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Dec 20, 2017 7:57:59 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

You mean the person with the Cadillac plan that keeps it forever at taxpayers expense? Like they care ...

There's a Republican lawmaker on OR who's trying to put state employees on ACA /nedicaid like plans to save money. The employees are not pleased.

I seriously doubt that would save money. Especially when the mandate goes away. 

[dezii]

Dec 20, 2017 7:55:51 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

And therein lies the problem....the medical industry was socialized in the 80's. They don't have the guts to do what you said. 

Simply a numbers game, if you pass a law that hospital have to treat everyone...then everyone should have to be covered. Otherwise, we are where we are today.

Write your Congressman, Zib!

" They don't have the guts to do what you said. "

Meaning? Escort them out of the building..just out the door or to the curb, off the property. If bleeding profusely do u stop the bleeding...give them bandages, dressings..[who pays for that?] or just let them bleed out...?