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Post by Opti on Jan 19, 2018 12:00:28 GMT -5
Burkman ... said the attack “seemed professional,” Based on ... what? ... his vast experience in the field of such attacks? Because obviously attackers using black SUVs are professional. Or maybe it was the mask? I find it amusing, because really how many attacks have you read of that someone drives up to someone's driveway only to jump out of a SUV spray them with something non lethal, hit them, and drive away? For me, its one. The more I think about it, the more I think this was staged. As long as he doesn't give them enough info to solve it, it will feed the conspiracy minded to spin more pretend scenarios. Which will be exactly IMO what he wants to happen.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2018 12:08:50 GMT -5
I want to know where he grocery shopped and what he purchased. That could be significant. Grocery can be cut throat spray in the face and bop on the head business.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2018 12:24:02 GMT -5
OK, thanks. I feel like I'm waltzing through John Nash's brainpan. It would be nice if we could get some truly nonpartisan breakdowns of what is actually happening.
The conspiracy whack jobs are in overdrive and the spin masters on both sides are making me dizzy.
@anne81 is doing a good job of staying neutral. Keeping an open mind but not asserting conclusions with undue certainty. Plus the peanut gallery is here to keep her in check.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jan 19, 2018 13:01:38 GMT -5
I understand I'm basically getting the Paul treatment here, which is why I urge you to go read it for yourself. That's the point. He shouldn't have been able to use that info but he and the FBI, and Fusion, were all sharing illegal info. It's been admitted in testimony. OK, if Steele colluded with someone or someones at the FBI, then those someone(s) at the FBI need to be reprimanded or fired. IMO we need to discipline or fire whomever has done wrong, but I don't think we should be letting Russian collusion go just because of some assholes or opportunists along the way. Virgil feels you've been non partisan. I disagree. I feel like you are on team Trump apoligists instead of team right, let's get to the bottom of all of it. Could some non Trumpers act badly, etc.? Yes. But I don't think there is any weird web of conspiracy leading through Hillary to Seth Rich to the FBI etc. One she's not that stupid. Two, the people in the FBI act for their own reasons including the idiots who had the affair and were stupidly talking about Trump on work computers. Three, Seth Rich most likely got killed by someone totally unconnected with politics and he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you don't want to be read as crazy(or a RW spinner dittohead), I'd skip mentioning Seth Rich ever again where it can be read publicly. You used to read as sensible to me. Now its more like highbrow posting on the latest stuff out of the RW spin machine. I feel like you and the RW spin machine are missing the important picture. Russians screwed with the US election. Americans most likely helped them. We need to know and get all those involved regardless of their political persuasion. All need to be nailed to the wall for putting America in jeopardy according to their crimes and involvement.
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Post by Opti on Jan 19, 2018 13:16:35 GMT -5
I think the easiest summation is that the Obama administration was carrying out illegal electronic surveillance on multiple parties, including Trump, by misusing FISA information. The dossier was used by the DNC, Clinton campaign, FBI, and members of the Obama administration to cover up and justify the ongoing, illegal surveillance. White House staffers cannot unmask US citizens on their own - they have to go through the FBI. High ranking individuals at the DOJ and FBI shared information back and forth with Fusion GPS, which pushed it to the media. They also lied to the FISA court in order to get warrants or to continue the surveillance, which you can do without a warrant. The people they believe misrepresented this information to the FISA court are Strzok, Ohr and Page. Meanwhile Clinton's own scandals were not seriously looked into - the FBI ignored reports that the missing emails had been saved to the cloud, never searched the Clinton's home or the Clinton foundation, allowed a suspect to act as Clinton's lawyer. etc. because the assumption was she would be president. So, essentially Watergate for the digital era. There's lots of ancillary stuff as well but this is the essential argument. There was no Russia collusion, just Russians using the DNC, media and dossier to sow chaos. How the heck did they get the server then?
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Post by Opti on Jan 19, 2018 13:17:59 GMT -5
Anne81, can you prove Trump was wire-tapped directly or was it really Trump and co talking to others who were wire-tapped?
The distinction is very important.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 13:18:44 GMT -5
I think the easiest summation is that the Obama administration was carrying out illegal electronic surveillance on multiple parties, including Trump, by misusing FISA information. stop right there. FISA is legal. you realize that, right? if FISA authorizes the tapping, it is automatically legal. that has been upheld for almost 3 decades, without exception. NOTE: i am not a fan of FISA. i never have been. Bush abused the HELL out of the program (don't even get me started about Gonzales. Gonzales is one of the guys that got me interested in politics, because his politics were utterly immoral imo), and Obama did too. but having said that, it is NOT illegal. unfortunately. this FOX/GOP PR move is desperate and unwarranted, and will serve ONLY as a distraction, imo. however, if they really get at the meat of this issue, and REFORM FISA (there are sensible reforms that have been suggested and not implemented for at least 15 years- mostly blocked by the GOP), that would be a great thing. it will NOT change the past, however (ex-post-facto). it will only change the future. but mark my words on this: you are barking up the wrong tree.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 13:20:02 GMT -5
So, essentially Watergate for the digital era. There's lots of ancillary stuff as well but this is the essential argument. There was no Russia collusion, just Russians using the DNC, media and dossier to sow chaos. just a side note: i would find arguments more compelling if they didn't sound like a synopsis of the Hannity Show.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 13:23:13 GMT -5
Anne81, can you prove Trump was wire-tapped directly or was it really Trump and co talking to others who were wire-tapped? The distinction is very important. it honestly doesn't even matter, if FISA approved the warrant. anyone who doesn't understand that statement doesn't understand FISA. and that is understandable. it is not easy to understand FISA.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 19, 2018 14:20:44 GMT -5
Anne81, can you prove Trump was wire-tapped directly or was it really Trump and co talking to others who were wire-tapped? The distinction is very important. it honestly doesn't even matter, if FISA approved the warrant. anyone who doesn't understand that statement doesn't understand FISA. and that is understandable. it is not easy to understand FISA. You have to show reasonable suspicion that you believe the subject is engaged in spying activities with foreign governments, and they were able to show that for Manafort, prior to 2014, due to his involvement in the Ukraine. This was way before the dossier and before he joined the Trump team. There's plenty of fishy evidence of at least money laundering, and possibly for working as a Russian agent to try to influence the outcome of the election.
Given, that, and knowing how Russia has been interfering with other Western elections (and probably has with ours, in the past) I can see how Manafort would come under special scrutiny once he joined the Trump team. If nothing else, Russia could blackmail him over the money laundering activities, and he would be in the position, within Trump's campaign, to do Russia a lot of favors in return for their silence.
Even assuming the dossier is 100% fabricated, Manafort's activities were enough to get the FISA warrant.
If there are people within the FBI who were cooperating with Fusion GPS, they need to be disciplined - but that doesn't erase the fact that Manafort actually was laundering money, and there seems to be some solid evidence that Trump and Trump Jr were, too (just based on Trump Jr's statement in 2014 that he had access to 100 million dollars in Russian money, at a time when the company couldn't get loans from American banks).
Focusing on the dossier just seems to be a diversion away from what was really happening, and a way to shrug off the Mueller findings as 'fake' too.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2018 14:21:28 GMT -5
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2018 14:23:34 GMT -5
Mueller isn't merely discredited, he is implicated.
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2018 14:52:05 GMT -5
Then do your job as a US Representative and file Articles of Impeachment on those who are still "civil Officers of the United States".
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 15:25:58 GMT -5
it honestly doesn't even matter, if FISA approved the warrant. anyone who doesn't understand that statement doesn't understand FISA. and that is understandable. it is not easy to understand FISA. You have to show reasonable suspicion that you believe the subject is engaged in spying activities with foreign governments, and they were able to show that for Manafort, prior to 2014, due to his involvement in the Ukraine. This was way before the dossier and before he joined the Trump team. There's plenty of fishy evidence of at least money laundering, and possibly for working as a Russian agent to try to influence the outcome of the election.
Given, that, and knowing how Russia has been interfering with other Western elections (and probably has with ours, in the past) I can see how Manafort would come under special scrutiny once he joined the Trump team. If nothing else, Russia could blackmail him over the money laundering activities, and he would be in the position, within Trump's campaign, to do Russia a lot of favors in return for their silence.
Even assuming the dossier is 100% fabricated, Manafort's activities were enough to get the FISA warrant.
If there are people within the FBI who were cooperating with Fusion GPS, they need to be disciplined - but that doesn't erase the fact that Manafort actually was laundering money, and there seems to be some solid evidence that Trump and Trump Jr were, too (just based on Trump Jr's statement in 2014 that he had access to 100 million dollars in Russian money, at a time when the company couldn't get loans from American banks).
Focusing on the dossier just seems to be a diversion away from what was really happening, and a way to shrug off the Mueller findings as 'fake' too.
right, you have to show that to the FISA court. THEY decide whether there is sufficient grounds. i agree that Manaforts resume is sufficient cause, btw. i bet the FISA court did, too. not seeing much response from others here on the other side of this debate. your replies are welcome. i can't honestly figure out what leg y'all think you are standing on.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 15:27:25 GMT -5
oh joy. a flow chart. so, what is this supposed to mean?
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 19, 2018 16:10:53 GMT -5
I assume from the flow chart that the fact that Nelly Ohr spoke fluent Russian and had a ham radio license is proof positive that the FBI and DOJ shared information with Steele through Nellie - otherwise, how else do you explain how both the FBI and Steele ended up with the same information? I would imagine, since the US and UK are allies, they probably cultivate the same friendly Russian sources. So using Occam's Razor, it's more likely that the FBI, using it's own sources in Russia, talked to some of the same contacts that Steele talked to, and those contacts came back with the same or similar stories. Like when I watch Game of Thrones and my co-worker watches Game of Thrones, we both come back to the watercooler and talk about the plot points, because we saw the same show. I can see how someone looking for conspiracies and treasonous behavior could finger Nellie and her ham radio, but there needs to be better proof than that, if we're supposed to jump to the conclusion that the FBI and Steele made up this document out of whole cloth, between them. For starters, Steele is a retired UK agent with apparently a good record. Is someone blackmailing him to participate in this highly illegal and career destroying activity? He claims he brought the dossier information to McCain and the FBI because he was afraid there was a crime in progress and the Americans needed to be aware of it. Do we have proof to show he had some other, more nefarious motive? Or do we need to just assume the Brits act like assholes all the time?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2018 16:18:21 GMT -5
You have to show reasonable suspicion that you believe the subject is engaged in spying activities with foreign governments, and they were able to show that for Manafort, prior to 2014, due to his involvement in the Ukraine. This was way before the dossier and before he joined the Trump team. There's plenty of fishy evidence of at least money laundering, and possibly for working as a Russian agent to try to influence the outcome of the election.
Given, that, and knowing how Russia has been interfering with other Western elections (and probably has with ours, in the past) I can see how Manafort would come under special scrutiny once he joined the Trump team. If nothing else, Russia could blackmail him over the money laundering activities, and he would be in the position, within Trump's campaign, to do Russia a lot of favors in return for their silence.
Even assuming the dossier is 100% fabricated, Manafort's activities were enough to get the FISA warrant.
If there are people within the FBI who were cooperating with Fusion GPS, they need to be disciplined - but that doesn't erase the fact that Manafort actually was laundering money, and there seems to be some solid evidence that Trump and Trump Jr were, too (just based on Trump Jr's statement in 2014 that he had access to 100 million dollars in Russian money, at a time when the company couldn't get loans from American banks).
Focusing on the dossier just seems to be a diversion away from what was really happening, and a way to shrug off the Mueller findings as 'fake' too.
right, you have to show that to the FISA court. THEY decide whether there is sufficient grounds. i agree that Manaforts resume is sufficient cause, btw. i bet the FISA court did, too. not seeing much response from others here on the other side of this debate. your replies are welcome. i can't honestly figure out what leg y'all think you are standing on. You're a lap behind Anne on FISA. Go back several pages. There are links to pages of analysis explaining the complex relationship between FISA warrants, "About Queries", the FISA courts, a timeline of FISA-related actions, and which laws those actions would run afoul of. You're giving Anne grief over her use of the world "illegal", but you need to digest the full thread (and Anne's contributions in particular) at least far back as page 8 to properly parse what she's saying. Incidentally, reading everything from page 8 forward (which requires visiting the links) will also answer your question about the significance of the diagram.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2018 16:26:01 GMT -5
It would be nice if we could get some truly nonpartisan breakdowns of what is actually happening.
The conspiracy whack jobs are in overdrive and the spin masters on both sides are making me dizzy.
Agreed. I do not try to follow it much, because my guess is most is noise, i.e. wishful mis-information and very little of it is signal, i.e. actual verifiable truth. Agreed. But as long as it's theoretically possible they conspired with the Russians to hack the DNC, we'd be remiss not to look into it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 17:37:51 GMT -5
I assume from the flow chart that the fact that Nelly Ohr spoke fluent Russian and had a ham radio license is proof positive that the FBI and DOJ shared information with Steele through Nellie - otherwise, how else do you explain how both the FBI and Steele ended up with the same information? I would imagine, since the US and UK are allies, they probably cultivate the same friendly Russian sources. So using Occam's Razor, it's more likely that the FBI, using it's own sources in Russia, talked to some of the same contacts that Steele talked to, and those contacts came back with the same or similar stories. Like when I watch Game of Thrones and my co-worker watches Game of Thrones, we both come back to the watercooler and talk about the plot points, because we saw the same show. I can see how someone looking for conspiracies and treasonous behavior could finger Nellie and her ham radio, but there needs to be better proof than that, if we're supposed to jump to the conclusion that the FBI and Steele made up this document out of whole cloth, between them. For starters, Steele is a retired UK agent with apparently a good record. Is someone blackmailing him to participate in this highly illegal and career destroying activity? He claims he brought the dossier information to McCain and the FBI because he was afraid there was a crime in progress and the Americans needed to be aware of it. Do we have proof to show he had some other, more nefarious motive? Or do we need to just assume the Brits act like assholes all the time? good record is understating the matter. he was considered a very high value intelligence asset.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jan 19, 2018 17:58:29 GMT -5
Not according to our government data base. Trust me, I'm a ham and looked into it.
ETA You spelled her name wrong. Yes Nellie Ohr has a ham radio license.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2018 19:30:03 GMT -5
I have to admit, I don't see where these revelations about the "big ugly" (as the CTH puts it) implicate Mr. Mueller. How does he fit into the picture? The investigation is a fraud. Mueller would have to be aware of this. Comey admitted under oath in his testimony before Congress that he illegally leaked the contents of his conversation with President Trump to a "friend" he knew in turn would leak it to the NY Times for the express purpose of creating an impetus for a special counsel. Bottom line: Mueller is a dirty cop. This fake dossier helped create his position as Special Counsel along with Comey’s leaks to the press. Mueller in turn selected a partisan pack of dirtbags to go after Trump and his team. He fired Peter Strzok because he HAD to because he got CAUGHT-- not because he didn't know until the damning revelations about Strzok and Page discussing an "insurance policy" in case Trump won. There's little doubt at this point that the FBI, DOJ, DNC, Clinton Campaign & Obama himself conspired to spy on the Trump team by way of a fraudulent application for a FISA warrant using fabricated 'evidence' in the form of the "dossier". Remember when this was the reaction to Trump being warned he was being spied on and moving his transition from Trump Tower to NJ... www.cnn.com/2017/03/19/politics/house-intelligence-committee-hearing-russia-wiretapping/index.htmlThis is more than 'embarrassing' and Trump isn't the one that should be concerned. "Laws Were Broken"... "I don't want to believe that those kinds of things could be happening in the country I call home and that I love"
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2018 19:33:12 GMT -5
"Our republic is in jeopardy if we allow this type of a palace coup environment to persist"
"If we get this memo into the public square, heads are going to roll at the FBI and DOJ"
"We can never live in a country where this kind of thing happens"
"The cast of characters identified in the memo are [still in government]...there are people who are going to face criminal consequences"
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2018 20:12:42 GMT -5
Our republic was put in jeopardy the moment we swore in the most corrupt person in the country as president.
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 19, 2018 21:45:04 GMT -5
I think Steele wrote very little of the dossier and was mainly used as a cover and conduit. Other members of the intelligence field are not impressed with the dossier while they say Steele's past work as excellent. He was hired to do some research but mostly to shop it to the press and FBI. Simpson admitted in his testimony that they will press for criminal investigations if it makes sense for their client. I think the first memo came out about five days after he came on board. At that point Simpson had worked on it for a couple of months and Nellie Ohr for about a month, IIRC. There are numerous places where Simpson and Steele's testimony conflict. So I'm still curious why an experienced UK ex-spy and Russian expert like Steele would accept the job of carrying a document he did not research or write to the FBI and participate in a farce that he wrote it.
I can see him taking this to the FBI and McCain if he thought a crime was being committed. I can't see him, someone very knowledgeable about how governments work, allowing his name to be associated with a document he didn't write, or carrying it to the FBI and McCain, knowing that he would then be permanently linked to it, with all the legal problems that could arise from it, unless someone had some serious blackmail material against him, or kidnapped his kid or something. I mean, it seems on a level of someone taking a stolen manuscript to Steven King and asking him to take it to be published as his own work. What could he get out of it that would offset ruining his reputation if it went wrong?
It's easier to believe there were some FBI agents plotting amongst themselves, or that Fusion GPS was politically biased, but I can't see how Steele gains anything by participating in this, and I can't imagine why he would care who our president was, any more than we care about what's his name and his big wedding to that woman.. William or Harry. Not the ginger. No wait, it is the ginger.
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 19, 2018 21:50:45 GMT -5
I think one of the things that makes it confusing is the remarkable amount of infighting as well. There's someone at the DOJ/FBI that got mad when Flynn pled guilty. That's when the real anti-Mueller investigation leaks started. For obvious reasons most people don't pause to consider that Trump has known this, and more, for awhile now and it's affecting his behavior. ETA: don't be afraid to read conservative, or super liberal sources. They have plenty of criticism and questions for Trump. They've actually had more on point criticism than I've seen from more mainstream stuff. I admire your patience reading the far right and far left stuff. The edges of the political spectrum give me a headache, on both sides. And I'm leery about what's been fact checked and verified versus what some fringe group has created in their overheated imaginations. So I try to stay with mainstream journalists.
Like Alex Jones - I think he's the guy that thinks all the mass shootings, including Sandy Hook, are false flag events staged by the government to force us to give up our guns. If I could punch him in the face I would.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 23:53:24 GMT -5
I think Steele wrote very little of the dossier and was mainly used as a cover and conduit. Other members of the intelligence field are not impressed with the dossier while they say Steele's past work as excellent. He was hired to do some research but mostly to shop it to the press and FBI. Simpson admitted in his testimony that they will press for criminal investigations if it makes sense for their client. I think the first memo came out about five days after he came on board. At that point Simpson had worked on it for a couple of months and Nellie Ohr for about a month, IIRC. There are numerous places where Simpson and Steele's testimony conflict. i am confused by why you are choosing Simpson over Steele. if you have stated it previously, please point it out.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 19, 2018 23:56:39 GMT -5
I assume from the flow chart that the fact that Nelly Ohr spoke fluent Russian and had a ham radio license is proof positive that the FBI and DOJ shared information with Steele through Nellie - otherwise, how else do you explain how both the FBI and Steele ended up with the same information? I would imagine, since the US and UK are allies, they probably cultivate the same friendly Russian sources. So using Occam's Razor, it's more likely that the FBI, using it's own sources in Russia, talked to some of the same contacts that Steele talked to, and those contacts came back with the same or similar stories. Like when I watch Game of Thrones and my co-worker watches Game of Thrones, we both come back to the watercooler and talk about the plot points, because we saw the same show. I can see how someone looking for conspiracies and treasonous behavior could finger Nellie and her ham radio, but there needs to be better proof than that, if we're supposed to jump to the conclusion that the FBI and Steele made up this document out of whole cloth, between them. For starters, Steele is a retired UK agent with apparently a good record. Is someone blackmailing him to participate in this highly illegal and career destroying activity? He claims he brought the dossier information to McCain and the FBI because he was afraid there was a crime in progress and the Americans needed to be aware of it. Do we have proof to show he had some other, more nefarious motive? Or do we need to just assume the Brits act like assholes all the time? So the really big conspiracy theory is that foreign governments spied on the Trump campaign at the Obama administrations behest. Those rumors have been flying around for awhile and could be an explanation of Trump's very cold relationship with the UK and Australia. People believe Trump was told by the head of the NSA soon after the election that he was being wiretapped. Admiral Rogers visits him, the very next day they move their headquarters out of Trump Tower, and members of the Obama administration start calling for Rogers to be fired. He was the one who also stopped the about queries and took his report on the abuses to the FISA court. sure. and the fact that Trump called up their leaders and treated them poorly might have something to do with it, too. are you familiar with Ockham's Razor?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2018 12:08:10 GMT -5
sure. and the fact that Trump called up their leaders and treated them poorly might have something to do with it, too. are you familiar with Ockham's Razor? Maybe that's why he called them up and treated them poorly? I'm familiar with Occam's razor. could just as easily be that they are pissed because we spied on THEM, right? i mean, that is #realnews. Merkel was furious about it. or am i misremembering? that is the funny thing about talking to you and others on this board. i start to doubt my own sense of things. don't laugh. it's not funny. PS- thanks for the dialog and discussion. i appreciate your thoughts.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2018 12:53:49 GMT -5
It was the Obama administration that spied on Merkel. I don't think she'd blame Trump for that. I'm sure Trump offends her on multiple levels. i'm aware of that. i was suggesting that there is an environment of general distrust.
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Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Jan 20, 2018 12:57:01 GMT -5
It's easier to believe there were some FBI agents plotting amongst themselves, or that Fusion GPS was politically biased, but I can't see how Steele gains anything by participating in this, and I can't imagine why he would care who our president was, any more than we care about what's his name and his big wedding to that woman.. William or Harry. Not the ginger. No wait, it is the ginger.
Steele was paid for his work. he stands as much to gain from it as you do from showing up Monday. edit: i will, however, mention that Steele had no desire to have his name attached to this. he was "outed".
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