formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 27, 2011 12:39:44 GMT -5
I think this is probable. Shouldn't we, as an educational system, focus on rounding out the population and allow them to flourish in a trade that they are good at? Kind of like Safe's example of Germany and Switzerland.
A good master mechanic can make over $150k as a sole proprietor. Plumber, carpenter, etc - the same can be had. These professions should not be looked down on; they are all necessary.
I know most teachers / counselors when I was in school [Gen Y] pushed everyone to go to college. It seems the system has steered many children in the wrong direction; where many would have been much better placed in a trade.
Perhaps the wording of my post was abrasive and hopefully thought provoking [intentionally] but for a number of students, I believe the grade 9 - 12 money would be better spent in trade type / vo tech schools with the core classes still being completed [math, English].
This might alleviate some of the education system woes if we were to allocate monies where they are needed most and where our society [as a whole] can benefit most. This includes special education funding too, in my opinion.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 27, 2011 12:53:10 GMT -5
I think you're kind of making my point. Your husband wasted away in the educational system [the cost burden was still incurred by the tax payers] when he could have easily been directed to a trade where he would have excelled, or maybe even into the profession he is in now.
I'm assuming by "we finally realized" about your husbands dyslexia, that it wasn't the educational system that found it and helped your husband conquer the issue?
Your husbands example is precisely what is wrong with the current system. If a child is less than average then it is assumed they are dumb or that they need more attention [i.e. more money and resources taken away from the above average] to get better scores and do better in school.
There is always going to be a below average. It's really just math working against us there. What I've noticed though is that most of these "below average" students are great carpenters, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, iron workers, chefs, etc.
Sometimes these students simply do not fit in the educational box the system tries to place them into, but are extremely gifted and excel in their own trade.
If we recognize that up front and direct the monies in that direction, then I believe we'd bring educational costs for everyone down. [/size]
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 12:55:36 GMT -5
I also agree with that assessment. Twenty years ago, I could easily get $25.00/hour as an operator in a word processing center. Today, I have offers of $11.00/hour to work on complex spreadsheets. I would tell everyone that change is a constant. We definitely need those craftsmen. It reminds me of the old joke. A neurosurgeon is standing in despair in knee high water in a rapidly-filling basement. In rushes the plumber and furious banging and clanging is heard for about 20 minutes. As the water drains, the doctor is initially relieved until handed the bill: $150.00. "Why, that's $600/hour says the doctor. I don't get that and I'm a brain surgeon." The plumber replies, "Neither did I when I was a brain surgeon." I don't get the joke because aren't a lot of brain surgeons who were sued for $megaucks for mistakes; now working as plumbers or carpenters...so how is this funny?? Well we have plumbers who were once teachers, doctors, cops and firemen out here on the left coast of the USA ...Ma'am...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 27, 2011 12:57:15 GMT -5
There is no comma after the word grammar and you forgot a period after IMHO. And does "Since the English grammar, and spelling is the worse of the worst IMHO" really deserve to be a sentence as you are using the word "Since" as a subordinating conjunction which would tie your two thoughts together. Thanx, I guess?? However I inserted the "comma" to see how many would pick up on it, and/or who was really good at nit picking ad nauseum.... And to make your day. Or and just for you Tennesseer/Moderator; I will rewrite it again: " Since the English grammar and spelling is the worse of the worst."Here's an example: " Is that a border mod bashing or just a LOL bashibng...hey anything I see, I report. "...... Either you are making many mistakes as of late or just testing everyone. LOL
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 13:01:34 GMT -5
Thanx, I guess?? However I inserted the "comma" to see how many would pick up on it, and/or who was really good at nit picking ad nauseum.... And to make your day. Or and just for you Tennesseer/Moderator; I will rewrite it again: " Since the English grammar and spelling is the worse of the worst."Here's an example: " Is that a border mod bashing or just a LOL bashibng...hey anything I see, I report. "...... Either you are making many mistakes as of late or just testing everyone. LOL And you should have wrote: "Either you are making many mistakes as of late, or just testing everyone." And the use of "lol" has become very trite, hackneyed, and boring now in case you are not aware of what is considered trite, hackneyed and boring in all due respects Tennesseer/Moderator..
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 27, 2011 13:14:52 GMT -5
Ohhhhhhhh geez, is it time again for PI's daily Tenn whine? Isn't it old already?
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 13:17:49 GMT -5
Ohhhhhhhh geez, is it time again for PI's daily Tenn whine? Isn't it old already? And your point is what? Ma'am Btw I don't care much for Tenn Wine at all but do like just plain old fashioned diet Coke...or Coke Zero...you forgot to use "Spell Checker"... And I think my response was to Tennesseer/Moderator or are you on the prowl again?
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 27, 2011 13:22:57 GMT -5
And what's your point PI? Obviously nothing on topic apparently.
Honestly, I've never seen a grown ass male who complains as much as you do. Aren't you a little old to be throwing your passie out of the crib every hour?
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 13:24:52 GMT -5
And what's your point PI? Obviously nothing on topic apparently. Honestly, I've never seen a grown ass male who complains as much as you do. Aren't you a little old to be throwing your passie out of the crib every hour? Why should you care?? What is a passie??
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 27, 2011 13:30:54 GMT -5
whinying
I think you forgot to use spell check. ;D Don't you just hate when that happens? ;D
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 13:32:25 GMT -5
whinying I think you forgot to use spell check. ;D Don't you just hate when that happens? ;D Is that all you got?? Rather lame IMHO....find a better examples of whinying or complaining and then we can discuss this and some of you other problems I guess ..and if you want to quote a member here at least get their exact quote and then repost them instead of just trying to wing it again..
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 27, 2011 13:38:00 GMT -5
Awwwww honey, I don't have any problems to discuss with the likes of you. In fact, the race is fixing to start, so I'm done with you now. Here's your passie back and maybe you should hold onto it instead of constantly throwing it onto the floor. Have a wonderful day, if you can.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 13:42:28 GMT -5
Awwwww honey, I don't have any problems to discuss with the likes of you. In fact, the race is fixing to start, so I'm done with you now. Here's your passie back and maybe you should hold onto it instead of constantly throwing it onto the floor. Have a wonderful day, if you can. I will now that you are gone...thanx again for stopping by and adding your two cents about nothing
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 14:27:48 GMT -5
I was wondering when toughtimes would show up...what took so long??
English vs Irish = Not likely..
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 14:36:03 GMT -5
It was my earlier joke that confused you. That's why I couldn't resist. I could not resist zinging that lame joke about a plumber that is as old as ...IMHO Notice that I zinged the joke and not the jokester...must be a Sunday thing, I guess?? BTW do you know the difference between an Irish Man and an English Man?? Answer: ..................................
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Mar 27, 2011 14:44:26 GMT -5
I do have a daughter with Williams Syndrone and I'm not sure of the value of trying to educate kids like those. I still think the separate schools are not a bad idea and they are taught as they are able to learn. Many can learn reading, writing, basic math, how to handle a checkbook, and other basics like self care and the ablility to take care of themselves as much as possible. But I do not think the whole class should have to accomodate kids such as these. I believe in special ed but not much in mainstreaming. My daughter talks about this at home. There is a child in her PE class who is wheeled in by his aide and then sits there and sleeps. She states that he seems to be unaware of where is he and why he is there. Who is this supposed to benefit? In another class the aide would bring the student in and then proceed to basically do all the work for this student. The one on one aides cost the school district a fortune and I feel that these kids could be better served in a different setting. Learning some life skills would help these kids far more than pretending to attend a PE class.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 14:52:57 GMT -5
And Irishman and an Englishman were downing a few pints together in a Northern Ireland Pub and just happened to leave at the same time.
As the two of them are walking back from this pub, the irish man see's a sheep with its head stuck in a fence, so he jumps over the ditch and s**gs the sheep. 'YOUR TURN' he shouts to the english man when he's done so the english man jumps over the ditch and sticks his head in the fence.
So that is the big difference Irishmen are not only horny but smarter than the Englishmen...as well as better at telling bad, bad jokes
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 18:51:35 GMT -5
I do tihnk we spend too much on special education. really? why? Yes, i should expand on that. I guess i don't think we are very efficient at all in how we spend money in special ed. Its not that i don't think special education should exist... I do, and i do think kids with LD and Behavioral Support labels, for the most part, can be served well in schools and even in a Least Restrictive Environment. However, private one on one aides, severe and profound handicapped classrooms... highly expensive interventions for a single child... we have to be realistic...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 18:56:03 GMT -5
"I'm assuming by "we finally realized" about your husbands dyslexia, that it wasn't the educational system that found it and helped your husband conquer the issue?"
This is more due to the age of the individual... today it most likely would be caught and addressed...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 19:11:57 GMT -5
"Ok then Ma'am what are they indicative of?? Wouldn't a poor eduction be a causal relationship??" That my typing isn't as good as it used to be? And i don't always use spellcheck in an informal setting... Oh, and honey... its worst of the worst...
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 19:18:17 GMT -5
"Ok then Ma'am what are they indicative of?? Wouldn't a poor eduction be a causal relationship??" That my typing isn't as good as it used to be? And i don't always use spell check in an informal setting... Oh, and honey... its worst of the worst... Thank you again Ma'am but in Boston we always say "worse of the worst"...it's an Irish gang collequism...
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 27, 2011 19:33:17 GMT -5
I grew up in a middle class blue collar community. All my teachers said we would need a college education to survive in the future. My husband grew up in a poor section of the community. I have asked him numerous times if he thought his brothers and sisters in law ignored such warnings. He says no, their teachers just did not expect the majority of them to make it to college. I have a SIL that graduated from college, took a trip to Hawaii with her friends, paid for by her parents and never went to technical school or college. What was everyone in that situation thinking?
My DH has a publicly funded after school job to clean a certain facility. He had extra time so he always cleaned up the neighboring office. The worker in that office kept telling him you realize you are not supposed to clean my office? He told him yes, but I have time so he kept cleaning the office. Eventually the guy said to him if you want to go to college their is money. He never considered it until someone said you could not do it. His response was yes I can watch me. He nearly flunked out his first year. Now he is one of those lucky ones earning over $100,000/ year.
He was tech ed in high school. He wanted to be pre-law. He took education as his major. He is now in Marketing. Lets not assume that only those with good grades in HS are America's most qualified. DH almost flunked out his first semester. He stayed in school because he had told someone in HS he would graduate and he did not want to fail.
College is a lot of growth and learning om regards to life. Everything does not necessarily equate to your major. When I was in school they said we would change career direction at least 8 times before we graduated. Today I would say it has only increased.
It is not all about grades.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 19:39:20 GMT -5
We are not educating dumber students but we are indeed not educating our students to be more physically fit..plus high schools in CA are cutting our sports and athletics activities after school because of budget constraints..
Very few grammar schools have atheltic programs and kids waste too much time with their cell phones and video games...many finish the eight grade and have never played any sports at all..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 19:43:37 GMT -5
The worse/worst thing doesn't bother me.... I'm a live and let live kind of gal... but you were going on and on about correctness... so...
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 19:50:19 GMT -5
The worse/worst thing doesn't bother me.... I'm a live and let live kind of gal... but you were going on and on about correctness... so... I think you have me confused with the other P.I. that has been happening a lot lately...and not much I can or care to do about it. BTW we are trying to find out if Mr Burns has a secret admirer who is giving him tons of Karma...are you that gal, perhaps?? You can whisper it to me and your secret is safe and will go no further than this post ..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 20:05:32 GMT -5
Who is mr burns?
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 20:13:52 GMT -5
Who is mr burns? :)Dalton McGuinty Burns III ...probably the baddest of the bad dudes here..including yours truly..and all the ladies love him because of his Canadian manners and charm.....don't know if he went to "Charm" but was probably home schooled or self taught.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 27, 2011 23:05:36 GMT -5
Great... another group of Americans, and children at that, that some folks have decided don't matter and let's throw them away. ALL children have the right to an education, whether you think they are "dumb" or not. Plus it's just another example of how poor children aren't cared about unless they are an embryo. Steff, that is pretty lame, imo We all know the public school sysytem is in trouble. I for one, do not blame the teachers. I put the problem on the Administrators and parents, or lack of both parties, doing their job. I live in what is considered a liberal basically white community with a good schools system, motivated parents and quality administrators. It is fair to say even with that, easily 25% of the students could give a damn if they were in school or not. No teacher will change that perception for 99% of that 25%. What is worse that 25% creates a learning distraction for the other 75% that want to learn, and hurts 25% of them that are struggling to maintin a C average. Maybe we should pull that bottom 25% out so we can concentrate on the 75% that can be saved, rather than losing another 10% of the lower 75% because we are wasting everything on the bad 25% that will not do anything to help theirself. Now go into the inner city districts where it is more like 60/40, 40 being the ones that will stay. Until we get two parent families back in the homes, public school system will not make it.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 28, 2011 7:11:26 GMT -5
Yes, i should expand on that. I guess i don't think we are very efficient at all in how we spend money in special ed. Its not that i don't think special education should exist... I do, and i do think kids with LD and Behavioral Support labels, for the most part, can be served well in schools and even in a Least Restrictive Environment. However, private one on one aides, severe and profound handicapped classrooms... highly expensive interventions for a single child... we have to be realistic... thanks for elaborating. I was confused because "special ed" typically includes the first group of kids you describe, whereas "special needs" includes the second. my sis teaches at a HS that serves only the special ed community. she has kids that flourish in an environment that allows them to use adaptive measures to learn the curriculum, while also teaching them how to teach themselves in mainstream situations. some kids that have been through her school have found their way to the Ivy league, MIT, and other highly-regarded schools. I think we can both agree that a school like this (and there are a few around the country) is very beneficial to both the students and society, since the students end up becoming productive and successful adults after being given the tools to succeed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 8:04:27 GMT -5
I'm special ed certified, ages 3 to 21, and that covers all areas from Mentally Retarded, to Learning Disabled and Emotional Support any anything in between... From 19 until 7 years ago when i stopped working to Homeschool my kids, i worked in institutional settings, group homes, and taught mostly Learning Support (LD and ES)... I definitely agree that special education benefits many children and society, particularly in s a situation where we are standardizing education. I am not a big fan of labels, actually, but identifying allows parents to demand differentiation for their children... giving them access to different ways to learn and individualized goals...
Like with most things education, however, when the pendulum swings, it goes too far... Kids like that at one point had no rights really... now they can demand almost anything, and unless the school wants a legal fight, they can usually get it. (And again, those with good parent advocates tend to end up with more... ) And i think there needs, as harsh as it sounds, to be cost benefits employed.
An example: There was a child who we had who was partially blind and had emotional issues. He had a private aide, the latest technology, and created havok in any classroom he entered... not only did he cost more than, at least an entire classroom... maybe more, ... he interupted the learning process for lots of other kids. Sorry... I don't think his individual rights should be allowed to supercede others rights in that manner.
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