formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 26, 2011 21:25:44 GMT -5
I'm stealing these stats from handyman from another thread:
3% and 15% go to college for India and China, respectively. <20% and 30% get a HS diploma for India and China.
Financially speaking, is the US spending too much in the K -12 system on students that will not be able to make a reasonable return on that investment?
We always talk here about not throwing good money after bad. Isn't this a similar concept?
Would it be better usage of capital to invest more in the brighter children in America who will make more of a difference in the future of our country?
Instead of bringing the brightest in our public schools down to average, shouldn't we focus on lifting them up?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 21:31:33 GMT -5
We should be educating all children to become self-reliant productive adults. Some would go to college, others learn a trade, and all students should learn basic facts of living - laundry, cooking, nutrition, budgeting etc.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 21:40:43 GMT -5
I once heard of a Jewish proverb that said, "Who does not teach his son a trade, teaches his son to be a thief." There are many forms of education. Someone who is lousy with a computer may have gifted hands or a silver tongue. Find the strengths and teach to them.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 26, 2011 21:48:06 GMT -5
I agree with what you've said here. Perhaps we need to realize everyone isn't high school graduate / college material and place them in useful trades for paid apprenticeships instead of wasting $10k a year on an education that they're not really grasping.
The utilization of trade schools for high school students seems extremely low now compared to 30-50 years ago.
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 26, 2011 21:52:31 GMT -5
Great... another group of Americans, and children at that, that some folks have decided don't matter and let's throw them away. ALL children have the right to an education, whether you think they are "dumb" or not. Plus it's just another example of how poor children aren't cared about unless they are an embryo.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 21:55:21 GMT -5
Great... another group of Americans, and children at that, that some folks have decided don't matter and let's throw them away. ALL children have the right to an education, whether you think they are "dumb" or not. Plus it's just another example of how poor children aren't cared about unless they are an embryo. Not at all - some kids totally hate school, are not college material but would excel in a trade school. Plumbers, electricians, cabinet makers can make an excellent living.
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 26, 2011 21:58:35 GMT -5
Would it be better usage of capital to invest more in the brighter children in America who will make more of a difference in the future of our country?
********************************
I also mentioned before that our last Governor was very pro education and started many programs to help advance gifted students. And our new governor, a Tea Party Republican has decided to do away with all of the programs, is attempting to do away completely with certain college grants given to high school students.
So thanks Tea Party folks for helping dumb down our kids. Job well done.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Mar 26, 2011 21:59:13 GMT -5
Many, many years ago one of my professors studied European educational systems and was particularly impressed with the ones in Switzerland and Germany. In Germany, student selection started in what we'd call "middle school" and those who didn't qualify for further "education" are slotted into a trade. Only the select few went on to the highest level of education. It was a process of elimination. In Switzerland my professor was most impressed with the school organization. Seems that they didn't have professional administrators, but rotated teachers all of whom had the equivalent of a Masters in their teaching area. Skilled trades, particularly in Germany, are honored "professions" although garbage collectors and such tend to be Turkish immigrants. In the US, we try to send everyone to college [and are massively top-heavy with administrators].....Even back then my professor thought we were making a mistake. Unfortunately, we're still making it.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 22:04:58 GMT -5
Would it be better usage of capital to invest more in the brighter children in America who will make more of a difference in the future of our country? ******************************** I also mentioned before that our last Governor was very pro education and started many programs to help advance gifted students. And our new governor, a Tea Party Republican has decided to do away with all of the programs, is attempting to do away completely with certain college grants given to high school students. So thanks Tea Party folks for helping dumb down our kids. Job well done. No - truly gifted students can succeed - especially if they have family encouragement
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 26, 2011 22:06:29 GMT -5
Can you really compare the United States with India and China? India is only beginning to emerge as an economic powerhouse and China now has the second largest economy. Both countries have populations significantly larger than the United States (US 311 million, India 1.2 billion and China 1.3 billion).
Expect the number of high school and college graduates in India and China to increase in the coming years as their economies grow.
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 26, 2011 22:07:48 GMT -5
Types of high school diplomas available in Georgia....
But there is an exception to every rule! Not all colleges use diplomas as a deciding factor when they consider students for acceptance. Many private colleges will accept general diplomas and even technical diplomas. Private colleges can set their own standards, since they do not have to follow state mandates.
Common Diploma Types Technical/Vocational Students must complete a combination of academic courses and vocational or technical courses. General Student must complete a certain number of credits and maintain a minimum GPA. College Prep Students must complete a state-mandated curriculum and maintain a certain GPA. Honors College Prep Students must complete a state-mandated curriculum that is complemented by additional rigorous coursework. Students must achieve a high academic level and maintain a certain GPA. International Baccalaureate Students must complete a specific two-year international curriculum to meet standards set by The International Baccalaureate Organization. This challenging curriculum is normally completed in the final two years of high school by qualified students who have completed a highly academic pre-baccalaureate curriculum.
and appears the same is available in other states too....
Types of diplomasIn most cases, high schools will offer more advanced diplomas for academically gifted students. For example, an honors diploma (usually the highest awarded) typically requires a minimum GPA as well as a certain number of Advanced Placement or other honors courses. Some high schools also offer lesser ranked diplomas, but are still more prestigious than the standard diploma; for example, some offer a "college prep" diploma with a program designed for those going to college (which typically has a two-credit foreign language requirement). Some states (such as Kentucky's Commonwealth Diploma) offer a very advanced diploma which requires a minimum number of AP courses and is typically a more prestigious honor than even an honors diploma. In some instances where a school also has a vocational education branch, the high school diploma and certificate of completion (Voc-Tech program) are presented together.
Local Diploma - Given by private high schools
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 26, 2011 22:10:43 GMT -5
No - truly gifted students can succeed - especially if they have family encouragement
********************
only until the charter school closes, the programs shut down and my son is transferred back to general high school that he could already graduate from because he has the required credits.
Once the programs are gone... and keep in mind our Govn is trying to do away with ALL advanced classes, ALL advanced AP/Honors programs, all college grants & state funded scholarships, all HOPE grants that pay for AP college/tech/career courses while students are still in high school and ALL charter schools.... once they are gone, the smart students, who have parents that can't afford private school, those kids are thrown away.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 22:18:54 GMT -5
Well maybe he could graduate and start to college
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Mar 26, 2011 22:19:29 GMT -5
I must admit I am a classic case of money wasted on higher education. I barely made it through high school. My parents brow beat me to go to college. I lasted a year and a half before calling it quits. I knew my talents were in my mechanical aptitude not calculus, analytical geometry etc. I chose my own path from then on. It was a choice I never regretted. I made a good living doing what I loved. As I have posted before, every person has a natural talent, they do not always require higher education. years ago we had a dirth of apprentice programs for those who wanted to put their skills to work. I will say all that can need to have a high school diploma because society demands it just to get started. I have a friend who could not learn to read because of a dislexic problem but a great nature artist. He makes a good living at his given talent yet never made it through high school. Our biggest mistake is trying to put all in the same mold and expectations. Makes you wonder how much we have lost by that attitude. I do have a problem with the classification of dumber students. They may not be able to grasp math or science but may have a talent that if nurtured enable them to be a self sufficient person.
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steff
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Post by steff on Mar 26, 2011 22:32:56 GMT -5
Well maybe he could graduate and start to college
*******************
and what about all the other students in the same programs that don't have that option? The freshmen & sophomores who don't have the credits? Take away everything they worked thru Middle School for, take away all the programs they have been doing in high school.... toss them into regular classes, since NO AP or Honors classes will be available. And call it a good day huh?
It's crap.... it's dumbing down our children more and more and more... taking away their opportunities to use their smarts in high school to set a course for their futures. It's not your kid right? So what difference does it make anyway. It's fucked up and fucked up logic and all we'll end up with is more under educated kids with fewer opportunities. More poor "stupid" folks for the rich to walk on right?
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Mar 26, 2011 22:36:10 GMT -5
Actually China has a problem in the education system. As I said before parents there pay for the children pay for school out of pocket. As the econmy has grown the dropout rate for high school is on the increase one reason is the child can go to work in a factory and help the family raise their standard of living. China is considerably worried about this trend and looking for ways to encourage teens to stay in school. In the early days of Americas industrial revolution and child labor laws this was also an issue here. The children went to work to help the family. Maybe China needs a child labor law.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Mar 26, 2011 22:41:06 GMT -5
Well maybe he could graduate and start to college ******************* and what about all the other students in the same programs that don't have that option? The freshmen & sophomores who don't have the credits? Take away everything they worked thru Middle School for, take away all the programs they have been doing in high school.... toss them into regular classes, since NO AP or Honors classes will be available. And call it a good day huh? It's crap.... it's dumbing down our children more and more and more... taking away their opportunities to use their smarts in high school to set a course for their futures. It's not your kid right? So what difference does it make anyway. It's fucked up and fucked up logic and all we'll end up with is more under educated kids with fewer opportunities. More poor "stupid" folks for the rich to walk on right? Sorry - it sucks - but I lived it. Four years in a gifted program and then a move to a farm and extremely small school district with no options. Its survivable and a gifted student with motivation can do a lot of enrichment on their own. Meanwhile - as harsh as it sounds - states can not afford what they have been spending and they do need to cut back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 7:54:22 GMT -5
I do think we need to track more, as long as it isn't too early, and there is choice/flexibility within the system.
We do have to look at the fact that, as technology advances, there are more academic requirements even for some of the more traditional trades... however, we also need to look at the fact that not all kids learn the same way, and so while algebra might be necessary for more kids, a hands on, practical algebra could serve some kids better than a theoretical, abstract mathematics class... etc...
India and China it was said on the other thread, they parents pay full price to educate... I don't believe in this system... there are other countries which track, and still have publically funded education. Not publically funding education means that only rich kids learn, and poverty continues... we need a system in which all kids have the opportunity to advance through education.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 7:54:46 GMT -5
I do tihnk we spend too much on special education.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 9:58:36 GMT -5
Are any of those students you are referring to now members of this message board by any chance? Since the English grammar, and spelling is the worse of the worst IMHO
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 10:11:12 GMT -5
grammar and spelling and typing errors on a message board are hardly indicative... lol... omg... r u 4 real?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 27, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
I do tihnk we spend too much on special education. really? why? as far as educating "dumber" students, I'm in absolute agreement with those posters that have said education is more than just book learning. I think a large part of the problem is that a lot of society generally looks down on skilled trades as respectable career paths for their own children. until that changes, I think we're going to continue having people educated way beyond what is necessary. god forbid Muffy and Wills make a living doing something they are very good at, that happens to be a skilled trade. they must have a degree from the Gilded University where Mum and Dad went.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2011 10:31:41 GMT -5
Did not read the thread and do not post here often.
What we are wasting money on is educating "foreign" students. ...
It is obvious that the reason they take all the foreign students is for the MONEY they make off them. Doesn't this fit nicely on this thread.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 27, 2011 11:03:57 GMT -5
Great... another group of Americans, and children at that, that some folks have decided don't matter and let's throw them away. ALL children have the right to an education, whether you think they are "dumb" or not. Plus it's just another example of how poor children aren't cared about unless they are an embryo. So we should keep throwing money into their education that 1) they have no desire to learn and 2) aren't taking advantages of anyway? I know "teaching all children" sounds good and all, but not every child wants to learn which then disrupts EVERY OTHER CHILD who does...it seems the bleeding hearts care more for the children who don't want to learn then they care for the ones that do.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 27, 2011 11:08:38 GMT -5
No - truly gifted students can succeed - especially if they have family encouragement ******************** only until the charter school closes, the programs shut down and my son is transferred back to general high school that he could already graduate from because he has the required credits. Once the programs are gone... and keep in mind our Govn is trying to do away with ALL advanced classes, ALL advanced AP/Honors programs, all college grants & state funded scholarships, all HOPE grants that pay for AP college/tech/career courses while students are still in high school and ALL charter schools.... once they are gone, the smart students, who have parents that can't afford private school, those kids are thrown away. So you're favored plan is to pay an arm and a leg for every student to go to school, but then throw in the OTHER arm and leg to educate the advanced students because the "regular" schools (that we already paying an arm and a leg for) suck?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 27, 2011 11:11:38 GMT -5
Well maybe he could graduate and start to college ******************* and what about all the other students in the same programs that don't have that option? The freshmen & sophomores who don't have the credits? Take away everything they worked thru Middle School for, take away all the programs they have been doing in high school.... toss them into regular classes, since NO AP or Honors classes will be available. And call it a good day huh? It's crap.... it's dumbing down our children more and more and more... taking away their opportunities to use their smarts in high school to set a course for their futures. It's not your kid right? So what difference does it make anyway. It's fucked up and fucked up logic and all we'll end up with is more under educated kids with fewer opportunities. More poor "stupid" folks for the rich to walk on right? So what you are saying is regular school turns out stupid students?? Then why the fuck are we constantly throwing more money into it? My god, liberals, why are you defending an institution that does so poorly in your eyes?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 27, 2011 11:16:35 GMT -5
>>Ideally, we want to invest well in our children to produce productive, taxpaying adults instead of criminals, corner-boys and layabouts. <<
So when we invest all this money and they STILL come out as criminals and layabouts, do we get a fucking refund??? I thought not...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 27, 2011 11:41:10 GMT -5
Are any of those students you are referring to now members of this message board by any chance? Since the English grammar, and spelling is the worse of the worst IMHO There is no comma after the word grammar and you forgot a period after IMHO. And does "Since the English grammar, and spelling is the worse of the worst IMHO" really deserve to be a sentence as you are using the word "Since" as a subordinating conjunction which would tie your two thoughts together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 12:04:53 GMT -5
Are we wasting money by educating dumber students? No. The aim is to educate them so that they can become productive members of society. What we are wasting money on is not having an education system that requires students to learn to graduate. In essence our school system is just going through the motions of teaching. The good news is that we are breeding out own unskilled labor. Maybe we can turn things around & send some of the down to Mexico in a few years to pick harvests. (Oh & I guess that it's also good news that they feel good about themselves even though they can'r read or write).
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 27, 2011 12:32:24 GMT -5
grammar and spelling and typing errors on a message board are hardly indicative... lol... omg... r u 4 real?
Ok then Ma'am what are they indicative of?? Wouldn't a poor eduction be a causal relationship??
There is no comma after the word grammar and you forgot a period after IMHO. And does "Since the English grammar, and spelling is the worse of the worst IMHO" really deserve to be a sentence as you are using the word "Since" as a subordinating conjunction which would tie your two thoughts together.[/quote]
Thanx, I guess?? However I inserted the "comma" to see how many would pick up on it, and/or who was really good at nit picking ad nauseum....
And to make your day. Or and just for you Tennesseer/Moderator; I will rewrite it again:
"Since the English grammar and spelling is the worse of the worst."
Here's an example:
"Is that a border mod bashing or just a LOL bashibng...hey anything I see, I report. "......
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