probably lost a friend (sad "rant")

[MJ2.0]

I'm not going to get into all the details, but I'm pretty sure I just lost a friend - a great one.  Yes, it's the male friend I had been talking about.  Basically, I let my unresolved issues and victim/entitlement mindset push away someone who has been nothing but good to me... someone who has given me multiple chances... and I pretty much shat on all that.  No he's not perfect either, but I knew I had my own issues and decided they were fine and that I could just deal with them on a case-by-case basis.  Now I feel both empty and like I've swallowed a bowling ball.  I haven't been eating or sleeping well at all.

Saturday I took out a book from the library that has finally helped me pinpoint the mindset/internal dialogue that causes me to act out against the ones I'm closest to (because he is not the only one I've done this to).  Now that I know what it is, I can begin work on changing the internal dialogue so I can be a better person to others and myself.  I'm going to message my friend (I'm pretty sure he's blocked my cell number) on FB to let him know I'll be at a park close to his house Sunday if he wants to hear me out.  If he doesn't reply or show, I'll take that as he is either not interested or not yet ready to open communication.

I will work hard to fix this problem whether or not he shows/replies because he isn't the only one I've hurt.  He's just the first one to say "I'm done."  I'm done too - done with the victim thinking and done being so self absorbed.  Maybe this is a blessing in disguise.  Time will tell.

My point in sharing this I guess was to get it off my chest because I haven't told anyone.  My other reason for sharing is to just remind others who may be similar to me that:
1. we are all much more alike than we are different
2. failure at a thing doesn't make you less than or a failure as a human being
3. apply the golden rule as often as possible

[Deleted]

A good counselor can help sometimes. Good luck. Unpacking baggage sucks.

Not sure how to be helpful?

[MJ2.0]

what sucks is that I don't have the time or money for a counselor.  I met a WONDERFUL therapist a couple of years ago who was right down the road from my former employer.  She was out of network though and I could only afford a session every other week.  If I had the money I'd go back to her in a heartbeat.  Now I have even shittier insurance, so no idea what I can afford or who's good.  Finding a good therapist is as bad as dating.

[billisonboard]

Sept 14, 2017 9:09:47 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

.. No he's not perfect either, but I knew I had my own issues ...

My ex commented once we both had baggage but mine was carry-on while she had a full set.

I wish you the best as you work through this. Something I have used for strength is the idea that:

[hoops902]

If I had any advice to offer, it would be to NOT message your friend (or at least don't message him with the idea of meeting him). Work on yourself first. Nobody wants to hear "I'm going to change". Things like this are rarely as urgent as we all imagine them to be. If you're going to message him, I would tell him that you apologize, you understand the issue thanks in part to him holding you accountable, you're actively working on it, and that you hope someday in the future you can return to your friendship.   If, in a few months, you've made some changes...invite him out to coffee or something. 

People who are "done with you" want to hear "I've changed by doing this and this" much more than they want to hear "I will change".  EVERYONE says "I'll change"...few actually do it.  Showing real change is impressive to most.

[giramomma]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Do take care of yourself as best as you can with the eating and sleeping though.

FWIW.

You've never really struck me as being a victim at least here. (That said, I do also believe our (everyone in general) online personas may or may not be true reflections of who we (again generalized) are.)

I also don't think you are very self-absorbed.

I'm far more self-absorbed, tbh..one of the reasons why I don't have a ton (ok, any) friends IRL. I mean, I have acquaintances and the places where it's like I'm Norm at Cheers. But I don't really maintain friendships.

Has it occurred to you that some people have different tolerances of different behavior?

I remember a guy I dated when I was 19.  He just could not tolerate my thought processes and what not...eventually he broke it off with me after a few months.

Shortly there after, is when DH and I started hanging out more. Truly, DH is my longest friend...we've been friends for almost 25 years now.

I'm all for self improvement. I think it IS important. I just don't want to see you beating yourself up, either..

[MJ2.0]

Sept 14, 2017 9:39:40 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

If I had any advice to offer, it would be to NOT message your friend (or at least don't message him with the idea of meeting him). Work on yourself first. Nobody wants to hear "I'm going to change". Things like this are rarely as urgent as we all imagine them to be. If you're going to message him, I would tell him that you apologize, you understand the issue thanks in part to him holding you accountable, you're actively working on it, and that you hope someday in the future you can return to your friendship.   If, in a few months, you've made some changes...invite him out to coffee or something. 

I did message him to apologize, but that was before I figured out what the real problem was.  But there is some merit in what you've said.  I'm not 100% sold on what I planned to do Sunday, so I may go more the above route.

[MJ2.0]

Sept 14, 2017 9:42:53 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Do take care of yourself as best as you can with the eating and sleeping though.

FWIW.

You've never really struck me as being a victim at least here. (That said, I do also believe our (everyone in general) online personas may or may not be true reflections of who we (again generalized) are.)

I also don't think you are very self-absorbed.

I'm far more self-absorbed, tbh..one of the reasons why I don't have a ton (ok, any) friends IRL. I mean, I have acquaintances and the places where it's like I'm Norm at Cheers. But I don't really maintain friendships.

Has it occurred to you that some people have different tolerances of different behavior?

I remember a guy I dated when I was 19.  He just could not tolerate my thought processes and what not...eventually he broke it off with me after a few months.

Shortly there after, is when DH and I started hanging out more. Truly, DH is my longest friend...we've been friends for almost 25 years now.

I'm all for self improvement. I think it IS important. I just don't want to see you beating yourself up, either..

I have considered the highlighted, believe me.  It's strange - we can be extremely compatible as friends and more and then there are times where we are complete polar opposites and things get tense.  There are things he says that make me bristle on the inside, and when he gets angry I am REALLY scared of him.  He's never put hands on me, but he has hit things in anger/frustration.  I knew things would end eventually, I just hoped we'd be those friends who faded away over time.

[taz157]

Sept 14, 2017 9:47:54 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

It's strange - we can be extremely compatible as friends and more and then there are times where we are complete polar opposites and things get tense.  There are things he says that make me bristle on the inside, and when he gets angry I am REALLY scared of him.  He's never put hands on me, but he has hit things in anger/frustration.  I knew things would end eventually, I just hoped we'd be those friends who faded away over time.

That would scare me too.

[janee]

Sept 14, 2017 9:43:12 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Sept 14, 2017 9:39:40 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

If I had any advice to offer, it would be to NOT message your friend (or at least don't message him with the idea of meeting him). Work on yourself first. Nobody wants to hear "I'm going to change". Things like this are rarely as urgent as we all imagine them to be. If you're going to message him, I would tell him that you apologize, you understand the issue thanks in part to him holding you accountable, you're actively working on it, and that you hope someday in the future you can return to your friendship.   If, in a few months, you've made some changes...invite him out to coffee or something. 

I did message him to apologize, but that was before I figured out what the real problem was.  But there is some merit in what you've said.  I'm not 100% sold on what I planned to do Sunday, so I may go more the above route.

I'm so sorry for what you're going through, but also glad you feel you've identified the issue.  If you can't afford a therapist, read a lot of books so you do actually change.  I think Hoops is right about  tell him you apologize, understand the issue etc.  (hoops said it beautifully)  BUT I would send him a letter in US mail just saying that and that  you hope you can return to your friendship.  Wait a few days and contact him again.

You will know you've tried and hopefully he will forgive.  If not, try again later when you feel you can show you've changed.

Good luck!  I hope it works out for you.

[janee]

Sept 14, 2017 9:47:54 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Sept 14, 2017 9:42:53 GMT -5 giramomma said:

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Do take care of yourself as best as you can with the eating and sleeping though.

FWIW.

You've never really struck me as being a victim at least here. (That said, I do also believe our (everyone in general) online personas may or may not be true reflections of who we (again generalized) are.)

I also don't think you are very self-absorbed.

I'm far more self-absorbed, tbh..one of the reasons why I don't have a ton (ok, any) friends IRL. I mean, I have acquaintances and the places where it's like I'm Norm at Cheers. But I don't really maintain friendships.

Has it occurred to you that some people have different tolerances of different behavior?

I remember a guy I dated when I was 19.  He just could not tolerate my thought processes and what not...eventually he broke it off with me after a few months.

Shortly there after, is when DH and I started hanging out more. Truly, DH is my longest friend...we've been friends for almost 25 years now.

I'm all for self improvement. I think it IS important. I just don't want to see you beating yourself up, either..

I have considered the highlighted, believe me.  It's strange - we can be extremely compatible as friends and more and then there are times where we are complete polar opposites and things get tense.  There are things he says that make me bristle on the inside, and when he gets angry I am REALLY scared of him.  He's never put hands on me, but he has hit things in anger/frustration.  I knew things would end eventually, I just hoped we'd be those friends who faded away over time.

Sorry, I should have read more.  If you are scared of him, let the friendship fade a bit.  This isn't right for you.

[MJ2.0]

keep the advice coming!  I'm trying to open myself to all of it, including criticisms.

[giramomma]

Sept 14, 2017 9:47:54 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I have considered the highlighted, believe me.  It's strange - we can be extremely compatible as friends and more and then there are times where we are complete polar opposites and things get tense.  There are things he says that make me bristle on the inside, and when he gets angry I am REALLY scared of him.  He's never put hands on me, but he has hit things in anger/frustration.  I knew things would end eventually, I just hoped we'd be those friends who faded away over time.

Forgive me, again, I'm not trying to be an ass here.

But, if you knew the friendship wasn't going to stay forever, why are you worried then that you've pushed him away and that he's got boundaries?

I guess, I'm wondering what you want to get out of the relationship? It doesn't make sense from my perspective that you want to resume something that you felt was going to end. Why not end it? (And, again, it's totally legit that maybe you weren't ready to at that point or you only like to end relationships on your terms.)

DH and I are much like your friend. Some things we are really compatible about and others it's just like "oh, honey, no." And we agree to disagree and move on.

DH and I also have shit tempers, too. Which makes things loads of fun, sometimes. I'm a yeller...and guess what provokes DH amazingly quick like..Yelling. What's worse, is it took me 15 years of marriage to pick up on that, and only because I've decided to carefully listen to my son and husband interact.

(Actually, it sounds like our relationship is really bad all things given...but it's not. I promise.)

And for our marriage. I'm the talker. DH is more the listener. It could be construed as me being self-absorbed. But, it's more our personalities. I try to ask DH about things that I know he will talk about. Actually, we just talked about this last night...that I've made his talking to me more about his addiction.. more of a condition of us staying together after he works through his relapse. But other than that, really. The dude is a listener. I'm not going to make him a talker. I've always been the talker. From like age 5, when I see someone I care about after separation...It's pretty much verbal diarrhea for the next half hour. It's how I'm wired and I've gotten better, but it's never going away. I also trust that if DH wants his thoughts/feelings/etc to be known to me..that he'll speak up.

(I'll make the assumption here...that you aren't in a situation where you talk...he TRIES to say something, and then you cut him off, tell him how wrong he is for thinking whatever he managed to get out, and then redirect the conversation back to you. That's what I think of when I hear/experience self-absorbed..I just don't get that vibe from you.)

I don't want to discount your feelings of you having baggage that needs to be fixed. And again. I'm a huge fan of self improvement. Really. I believe we all need it. And who knows, I'm likely not "getting" it because I'm not in your shoes.

I just want to make sure you are taking ownership of the right things...

[thyme4change]

I can't recall where you are now. Many schools have free or cheap counseling. And many employers have some resources - like Blue Skies or something. You can get at least some advice on how to move forward.

Another option you could look into is talkspace.com. I have seen it advertised, but don't know much about it. It is all electronic, and looks like it is not appointment based. I don't know - but an option to check out.

I know there are counselors that will FaceTime or Skype. Maybe a little creativity will work for you.

Good luck. Getting out of bad patterns is a long, hard process.

[MJ2.0]

Sept 14, 2017 10:11:39 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 14, 2017 9:47:54 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I have considered the highlighted, believe me.  It's strange - we can be extremely compatible as friends and more and then there are times where we are complete polar opposites and things get tense.  There are things he says that make me bristle on the inside, and when he gets angry I am REALLY scared of him.  He's never put hands on me, but he has hit things in anger/frustration.  I knew things would end eventually, I just hoped we'd be those friends who faded away over time.

Forgive me, again, I'm not trying to be an ass here.

But, if you knew the friendship wasn't going to stay forever, why are you worried then that you've pushed him away and that he's got boundaries?

I guess, I'm wondering what you want to get out of the relationship? It doesn't make sense from my perspective that you want to resume something that you felt was going to end. Why not end it? (And, again, it's totally legit that maybe you weren't ready to at that point or you only like to end relationships on your terms.)

no, it's a worthwhile question.  It's something I have asked myself MANY times and have never gotten an answer.  He pretty much brought out the "me" that X had beaten down over the years and I will always love him for that.  We discovered we had a lot in common and we got along extremely well.  Then things escalated, and we discovered we are extremely compatible physically.  I'm afraid to lose that.  I guess I hoped we would be able to hang on and I could just "change" and we'd eventually end up together.  As much as I want us to be together forever, practically there are too many issues to make it a reality.  The anger is one.  We are both talkers and both don't have great tempers, so that's another.  And we are at two totally different life stages.  The way we met and the social entanglements surrounding us don't help either. 

 

[Deleted]

I have no advice.  I am horrible about maintaining friendships.  Probably why I don't have a lot of friends.    I have zero desire to change myself to please other people, and I'm not even sure I could at this point even if I wanted to.  But, I must say the handful of friends I do have have been around for a long time and have my back.  This includes first ex and to a certain degree Ex 2.0, (but I intentionally maintain distance from him to avoid issues.)

However, since the possible loss of this friendship is upsetting you, I hope that it gets worked out, but if you were hoping for a gradual fading out, I'm not sure it's worth a lot of effort.

[MJ2.0]

maybe me being conflicted means that I should hold off on taking any action, other than to tell him I'm hoping we can grab a coffee or something after I work on me.  And just let it go for now.

[giramomma]

Sept 14, 2017 10:20:55 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Sept 14, 2017 10:11:39 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Forgive me, again, I'm not trying to be an ass here.

But, if you knew the friendship wasn't going to stay forever, why are you worried then that you've pushed him away and that he's got boundaries?

I guess, I'm wondering what you want to get out of the relationship? It doesn't make sense from my perspective that you want to resume something that you felt was going to end. Why not end it? (And, again, it's totally legit that maybe you weren't ready to at that point or you only like to end relationships on your terms.)

no, it's a worthwhile question.  It's something I have asked myself MANY times and have never gotten an answer.  He pretty much brought out the "me" that X had beaten down over the years and I will always love him for that.  We discovered we had a lot in common and we got along extremely well.  Then things escalated, and we discovered we are extremely compatible physically.  I'm afraid to lose that.  I guess I hoped we would be able to hang on and I could just "change" and we'd eventually end up together.  As much as I want us to be together forever, practically there are too many issues to make it a reality.  The anger is one.  We are both talkers and both don't have great tempers, so that's another.  And we are at two totally different life stages.  The way we met and the social entanglements surrounding us don't help either. 

 

See, my question to would be why are you willing to keep yourself in a relationship that won't work for good/great sex?

Why are you afraid to lose it (either the sex or the relationship)?

And have you considered what makes sex great?

For me (again, just my experience)..it's the emotional connection/emotional intimacy. DH and I have always had matched drives. We've spent half our marriage just F*cking. I mean obviously it brought us much happiness and one kid. But for us, it's the emotional connection that makes even the most tame things toe-curling (and really quite moving), and has resulted in two kids, one of them unintended.

I can't picture having real emotional intimacy with someone that I can be scared of.  When I reflect on my relationships (all kinds, platonic, familial, romantic) the relationships that are not safe do not have emotional intimacy.

 

[MJ2.0]

Sept 14, 2017 10:34:25 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 14, 2017 10:20:55 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

no, it's a worthwhile question.  It's something I have asked myself MANY times and have never gotten an answer.  He pretty much brought out the "me" that X had beaten down over the years and I will always love him for that.  We discovered we had a lot in common and we got along extremely well.  Then things escalated, and we discovered we are extremely compatible physically.  I'm afraid to lose that.  I guess I hoped we would be able to hang on and I could just "change" and we'd eventually end up together.  As much as I want us to be together forever, practically there are too many issues to make it a reality.  The anger is one.  We are both talkers and both don't have great tempers, so that's another.  And we are at two totally different life stages.  The way we met and the social entanglements surrounding us don't help either. 

 

See, my question to would be why are you willing to keep yourself in a relationship that won't work for good/great sex?

Why are you afraid to lose it?

And have you considered what makes sex great?

For me (again, just my experience)..it's the emotional connection. DH and I have always had matched drives. We've spent half our marriage just F*cking. I mean obviously it brought us much happiness and one kid. But for us, it's the emotional connection that makes even the most tame things toe-curling, and has resulted in two kids, one of them unintended.

I can't picture having real emotional intimacy with someone that I can be scared of.  When I reflect on my relationships (all kinds, platonic, familial, romantic) the relationships that are not safe do not have emotional intimacy.

no no, I didn't mean I don't want to lose the sex - I meant I don't want to lose EVERYTHING.  We did share a lot with each other.

[MJ2.0]

and yes, he does have a very difficult time with letting himself be vulnerable or showing too much emotion.  Lots of things are a joke until he's mad about something.  That's another thing that I'm not crazy about.

[MJ2.0]

I had started to come around to the idea that this may not be all bad late last night.  you guys are giving me more food for thought.  Again, I want to fix my issues so I can have better relationships with my friends and family and so I can model better behaviors and dialogues for my son, so the outcome here is moot in that regard.  But there are elements of this particular relationship that may render it unhealthy for me/us - at least right now.

[giramomma]

Sept 14, 2017 10:46:40 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I had started to come around to the idea that this may not be all bad late last night.  you guys are giving me more food for thought.  Again, I want to fix my issues so I can have better relationships with my friends and family and so I can model better behaviors and dialogues for my son, so the outcome here is moot in that regard.  But there are elements of this particular relationship that may render it unhealthy for me/us - at least right not.

Here's the other thing you also should consider...sometimes you out grow relationships.

Just because you do your work and clean up your side of the street doesn't mean it's always enough to make relationships work.

[MJ2.0]

Sept 14, 2017 10:52:26 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Sept 14, 2017 10:46:40 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I had started to come around to the idea that this may not be all bad late last night.  you guys are giving me more food for thought.  Again, I want to fix my issues so I can have better relationships with my friends and family and so I can model better behaviors and dialogues for my son, so the outcome here is moot in that regard.  But there are elements of this particular relationship that may render it unhealthy for me/us - at least right now.

Here's the other thing you also should consider...sometimes you out grow relationships.

Just because you do your work and clean up your side of the street doesn't mean it's always enough to make relationships work.

I think that was what I was trying to pinpoint when I said I figured things would end at some point.  I know it's stupid to hold on to something you know can't last - I won't even attempt to rationalize it. 

[giramomma]

Sept 14, 2017 10:55:12 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I think that was what I was trying to pinpoint when I said I figured things would end at some point.  I know it's stupid to hold on to something you know can't last - I won't even attempt to rationalize it. 

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. We're only ready to do things when we are ready to. And that's a process that can't be rushed.

[Lizard Queen]

I always had a really hard time breaking up--even when I was the one who desperately wanted to.  Just the loneliness was hard.

[hoops902]

Sept 14, 2017 10:11:20 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

keep the advice coming!  I'm trying to open myself to all of it, including criticisms.

I would say to be open to the idea that even though you've "identified the issue" you might not have actually identified the issue (or not all of it).  Often when things jar us in life, we feel a need to find the cause, and so the first thing that comes up as being a potential cause is all of a sudden "our problem".  The reality is that identifying core things about ourselves that are destructive is not usually as easy as just identifying it and being right about it.  Human beings are complex, and frankly not that great at unaided introspection.  We seem to be even less great at unaided correction of core personality flaws. 

I say this for 2 reasons:

1.  Don't be too quick to abandon outside help or further introspection as to what things about you might be contributing to specific behavior.  Identification of a contributing factor is not the same as identifying the entire complex cause.

2.  If you manage to change the thing you've identified, don't beat yourself up if your actual actions don't change nearly as fast.  Again, human beings are complex, and even successfully changing one character flaw isn't going to magically turn things around.  You might even discover that the thing you attributed to being the cause ends up not impacting your behavior at all, but was more of an internal dialogue with something else entirely driving your behavior.

Often the thing we attribute to being the cause of our bad behavior is something we also attribute as being straightforward to fix ourselves.  As an example, someone who drinks too much will often attribute their behavior to "I need to stop hanging out with this person, or in this location, which is where I often do my drinking".  That's almost never the cause of someone's drinking problem though.  And while it's true that avoidance of habitual triggers is important, simply avoiding those habitual triggers without addressing the underlying cause (depression, addictive personality, trauma, etc) will only serve to change the current habitual triggers to new, different triggers.  If you are drinking because you're depressed, you don't magically become un-depressed by no longer hanging out in your favorite bar.  This really goes back to my point about not being great at unaided introspection.  Understanding you can't afford the therapist you'd like to see...I'm simply saying to stay open to the idea that solving what you THINK is the problem, may not actually solve anything because it's not the real problem.

[MJ2.0]

Hoops, I agree with all that.  It might help to poke around my insurance website to see what they offer regarding therapy.  The only way would be for me to find a place near work and squeeze it in mid day once a week.  I know I'm not anywhere close to "fixed", and even though I am pretty sure what dialogue is causing the acting out, I don't know where it came from. 

[Lizard Queen]

You know how you shouldn't count on someone else changing in order to make your relationship work?  You also shouldn't count on yourself to change.  It's a trap--thinking this new, improved version of yourself can make things magically happen.  (BTDT) I like to think of Bridget Jones' Diary--he loves me exactly as I am.  I have a million things, it seems like, to work on about myself, but you know what is reassuring as hell?  Knowing my DH loves and accepts this imperfect version of me already.  Having that in the back of my mind actually helps me in accomplishing some of the self-improvement I strive to do.

Having said that, some deeper inner-work I did was done before meeting him.  Probably easier to accomplish that sort of thing on your own?   Anyway, good luck, and I hope when the time is right, you find the BJD kind of friend.

[MJ2.0]

Agreed to that too.  I'm not really expecting anything to be "magically fixed."  I am looking to get a healthier image of myself and to allow myself to enjoy the good things and people in my life.  I understand that people will come in and out of my life for various reasons.  I am leaning toward thinking that everything will be alright and work out in the end... and I know that things working out in the end doesn't necessarily mean that I'll get what I think I want right now later.  It means things will be how they should be then.

[giramomma]

Sept 14, 2017 12:32:06 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Agreed to that too.  I'm not really expecting anything to be "magically fixed."  I am looking to get a healthier image of myself and to allow myself to enjoy the good things and people in my life.  I understand that people will come in and out of my life for various reasons.  I am leaning toward thinking that everything will be alright and work out in the end... and I know that things working out in the end doesn't necessarily mean that I'll get what I think I want right now later.  It means things will be how they should be then.

I found that after I worked on myself and cleaned up my street..that more good people came into my life. It was really quite a positive experience for me.