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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 7:41:21 GMT -5
"Well, seeing as how private schools are too expensive, there aren't enough charter schools, and most parents have to work and cannot, therefore, home school their children - Yes, those are pretty much the only two options for the vast majority of children in the US. "
Most people CHOOSE it, even if not directly. It is actually possible for most people to live on one income. Do i always like the concessions i have to make in order to homeschool? No. But its doable. A lot of the families I know make much less than us and still homeschool (they also get nice EITCs so... ? ... and vote Republican?... but another thread perhaps?) ...
Private school doesn't always cost 'too much' ... and there are scholarships, and you can work a different shift, or you could combine with other parents... there are lots of options... but most parents LIKE what their current standard of living buys them, without paying for private, or sacrificing income/sleep/whatever in order to home school...
I don't want to be mean, but I want to be accurate... for most people it IS a choice... if implicit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2011 7:43:15 GMT -5
"So how is their system better than ours? "
Because in measureing it 'better' than ours... they only measure 15-20% of their population? ... Haven't we been telling you that its NOT a fair comparison... and when 70% of our seniors are proficient or advanced at a 12th grade level... its actually quite an accomplishment...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2011 9:05:38 GMT -5
As a rule- that is, with rare exception- private schools spend FAR LESS than government run schools per pupil.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2011 9:12:15 GMT -5
In my district back in the Chitown burbs, you could live in a $180K townhouse, and you'd have a $6K property tax bill-- a little over $4K of which goes to the government run school.
You have NO CHOICE about that, and a lot of people can't afford $4K and change AND pay the $7K to $9K a year ON TOP OF THAT for a decent education in a private school, and/or pay $40K to $50K a year to homeschool-- assuming you give up a second income to home school.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2011 9:46:39 GMT -5
In my district back in the Chitown burbs, you could live in a $180K townhouse, and you'd have a $6K property tax bill-- a little over $4K of which goes to the government run school. You have NO CHOICE about that, and a lot of people can't afford $4K and change AND pay the $7K to $9K a year ON TOP OF THAT for a decent education in a private school, and/or pay $40K to $50K a year to homeschool-- assuming you give up a second income to home school. Having the kid(s) in the first place is choice. Living in the burb is a choice. Other expenses are choice. Playing the victim is choice.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 27, 2011 10:52:41 GMT -5
A) Everyone who thinks that teachers have "sweet deals" can be found in the dictionary under the definition of "delusional" and/or "brainwashed" . Lets see...working only part of the year, less kids per classroom (so less work for them, which is the REAL reason for such a thing), little to no costs towards insurance and pensions, a perpetual pension that keeps paying out far more than it can afford (working for 30-40 years does not mean the public should then keep paying for them for another 30-40 years afterwards), and pay far above 1) the market rate, and 2) what the public can afford to pay. What part of that ISN'T a sweet deal? But keep believing the union propaganda...you know what they say - keep repeating something and eventually it becomes truth
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2011 11:11:49 GMT -5
In my district back in the Chitown burbs, you could live in a $180K townhouse, and you'd have a $6K property tax bill-- a little over $4K of which goes to the government run school. You have NO CHOICE about that, and a lot of people can't afford $4K and change AND pay the $7K to $9K a year ON TOP OF THAT for a decent education in a private school, and/or pay $40K to $50K a year to homeschool-- assuming you give up a second income to home school. Having the kid(s) in the first place is choice. Living in the burb is a choice. Other expenses are choice. Playing the victim is choice. I'm not a victim. I have arranged my affairs so that my kids will never darken the door of the government run indoctrination camps. Yes, I lament the taxes I pay to support these horrible dungeons that turn out illertate, ignorant people. However, it is refreshing to hear you admit that the poor who are stuck in these camps in the inner city are there by choice- and if they'd just work harder, and make different choices-- they could live the life I now live. I guess I'm just a little more liberal than you- I want to do all we can to make that road a little smoother, and a little less uphill. But you're right, everyon has choices in life. I sometimes get called an extremist here, but I'm nothing compared to you. You're hard core, man. Hard core.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2011 11:18:31 GMT -5
Where do you think all the dumb-dumb kids will go? Into the ether? They are here and they have to be dealt with. The problem isn't saving money by not educating them now, it is what we are setting lose on America in two decades. My momma taught me that I have two choices in life: develop a strong mind, or a strong back. The true dumb dumb kids aren't going to have a middle class lifestyle. They will drive used cars. They may never own a home. They will work at jobs dumb dumbs work at. They will work hard, they will get paid little, and life will be fairly long and thankless for them. Middle class is a wonderful aspiration, but it's not a right. Sadly, not everyone will achieve it. Some will have a working class lifestyle. Can't do much about that no matter how much money we take from people at gunpoint to throw at the "problem" which sn't so much a problem as it is a fact of life. OTOH, and I think this applies to far more of the kids who might get labeled "dumb dumbs"-- school is a one-size-fits-all project that fits a single personality type, and a single learning style. A lot of kids who do poorly in school will eventually excel in life. Some will do so in spite of being nearly illiterate. We just have to get out of their way and let them do their thing. We have to return to a free and civil society, shun the failed ideas liberals still cling to of violence to force everyone to be the same, and allow people who hear a different drummer, to go ahead an march to that drummer.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 27, 2011 11:20:31 GMT -5
Having the kid(s) in the first place is choice. Living in the burb is a choice. Other expenses are choice. Playing the victim is choice. I'm not a victim. I have arranged my affairs so that my kids will never darken the door of the government run indoctrination camps. Yes, I lament the taxes I pay to support these horrible dungeons that turn out illertate, ignorant people. However, it is refreshing to hear you admit that the poor who are stuck in these camps in the inner city are there by choice- and if they'd just work harder, and make different choices-- they could live the life I now live. I guess I'm just a little more liberal than you- I want to do all we can to make that road a little smoother, and a little less uphill. But you're right, everyon has choices in life. I sometimes get called an extremist here, but I'm nothing compared to you. You're hard core, man. Hard core. Yes, I am hard core. ;D
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 27, 2011 13:22:47 GMT -5
As a rule- that is, with rare exception- private schools spend FAR LESS than government run schools per pupil. And yet charge a lot more per child than the government spends. Why? To maintain exclusivity. Private schools have high test scores because the only people who can afford them are the ones who have the benefit of a middle class or higher lifestyle - the children aren't facing the challenges of poverty. Not to mention that kids who don't live up to the standards of the private school can be kicked out OR drop out because the curriculum is beyond them. So again - what is your solution? No minimum education standards? Uneducated populace? I support trade school style educational opportunities, but a bare minimum curriculum needs to exist for ALL students. Government, basic math, basic reading, history, science - because those that have these tools under their belt - coupled with a thriving economy and access to basic resources - help create a happier, healthier, more peaceful society.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 27, 2011 23:35:43 GMT -5
As a rule- that is, with rare exception- private schools spend FAR LESS than government run schools per pupil. And yet charge a lot more per child than the government spends. Why? To maintain exclusivity. Private schools have high test scores because the only people who can afford them are the ones who have the benefit of a middle class or higher lifestyle - the children aren't facing the challenges of poverty. Not to mention that kids who don't live up to the standards of the private school can be kicked out OR drop out because the curriculum is beyond them. So again - what is your solution? No minimum education standards? Uneducated populace? I support trade school style educational opportunities, but a bare minimum curriculum needs to exist for ALL students. Government, basic math, basic reading, history, science - because those that have these tools under their belt - coupled with a thriving economy and access to basic resources - help create a happier, healthier, more peaceful society. Again, you're going to be very hard pressed to find a private school that spends more per pupil than the government run schools spend.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 6:55:10 GMT -5
Does your private school cost less than the portion of your property taxes that go to the public school paul?
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Post by ugonow on Mar 28, 2011 7:50:53 GMT -5
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Post by floridayankee on Mar 28, 2011 8:33:58 GMT -5
Lol,the whole semester will be devoted to getting kids to do well on the one test for their raise. Florida teachers have been "teaching to the test" (FCAT) for a while now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 8:37:04 GMT -5
So this will help then... how?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 8:44:05 GMT -5
Does your private school cost less than the portion of your property taxes that go to the public school paul? If you don't ask the correct question, you will always come up with an inaccurate answer. In FL, I have no idea. In IL- no. I paid roughly $6K in taxes to the district and $7K for private school. However, the correct question we have to ask ourselves is: How much does the district spend per pupil, counting all benefits, and pension promises? The next question is: Can we do better for the same money? We already know the answer: Yes. Private schools universally outperform government run schools. What's interesting (that you ought to know) is that home schoolers outperform private AND government schools. If we are going to publicy fund schools, the schools should not control the funds, and the government shouldn't have any control over the schools. We should simply have a means-tested tuition welfare program. The vast majority of people should be paying full boat sticker for their kid's education; those that can't afford it should be given vouchers for education; and those without kids should be enjoying life without having to rent their home from the government.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 8:46:15 GMT -5
"I have been a Guest Lecturer at local university. And, preparing a One hour lecture is not an easy thing. And, to prepare and teach day after day and keep kids on task, motivated, etc is certainly not an easy thing and not a job i would even want to do."
For group school this spring i'm teaching 2, 40 minute classes to middle schoolers, and helping a mom prep her music class. I spent, no lie... at least 10 hours prepping for my classes last week... 10 hours prepping for 2 hours of class time...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 8:49:26 GMT -5
I'm not necessarily for merit pay, either if it is based solely on the test. Why don't teachers get reviews like everyone else? If one of my my employees does a good job, that person gets rewarded with the best reward I can think of: they get to keep their job. Odds are pretty good that if you have a job, your 'merit pay' is you get to do it again tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 8:50:58 GMT -5
"Private schools universally outperform government run schools. What's interesting (that you ought to know) is that home schoolers outperform private AND government schools." Well mine certainly do .... lol... but that is relevant to the point... which is that some do, and some do not... not all private schools do better than public... not even all homeschoolers do better than they might in school... and always it comes down to the indivdiual kid and which situation he/she would do best in... which is why i can homeschool and still support the need for public education... we need to have a continuum...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 8:56:02 GMT -5
"Why don't teachers get reviews like everyone else?"
It takes diligence and man hours. And much as you like to think its impossible to get rid of tenured teachers, it is not... its just that the process also take diligence and man hours, and too often admin doesn't/can't spare the time.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:03:54 GMT -5
Snerd. I was horrible my first year teaching. It was urban, i was 22 and had some kids that were 19, the school was a mess, i had hardly any texts, and no support, the mentor teacher they hired was worthless. New teachers were supposed to be observed 6 times. The principal finally came around Jan? ... It wasn't a great review, and when i explained issues i was having, he promised to stop in a few times to watch and give pointers, get my mentor on board, etc. I never saw my mentor and the next time i saw the principal was when i was signing my Satisfactory year end review...
Thankfully it was a one year sub and after that i got a job in a much better environment... and excelled... And the principal i had there... he actually did, not only required observations and reviews... but opened up the process of getting rid of a bad teacher, which required even more observation, documentation, etc...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:05:25 GMT -5
And i have also known several teachers who have been 'let go' or pressured into 'early retirement', as well as that teacher who the principal took up the process of actually documenting in order to outright 'fire' her...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 9:05:46 GMT -5
"Private schools universally outperform government run schools. What's interesting (that you ought to know) is that home schoolers outperform private AND government schools." Well mine certainly do .... lol... but that is relevant to the point... which is that some do, and some do not... not all private schools do better than public... not even all homeschoolers do better than they might in school... and always it comes down to the indivdiual kid and which situation he/she would do best in... which is why i can homeschool and still support the need for public education... we need to have a continuum... You can always find an outlier. The fact is that for all intents and purposes private schools outperform government schools. A rare exception shouldn't be taken as an opportunity to point to the success of governent schools. Rather, in that case the likely scenario is BOTH schools are failing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:05:57 GMT -5
What was your yearly review based on Snerd?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:08:38 GMT -5
That isn't exactly accurate Paul... its more than just an outlier. And there are also questions of population as well... unless its an apples to apples comparison of demographics, you can't really say private or public is causal... private can generally pick their populations, private suggests more parental involvement, and if you control public schools for poverty, then our states move up to the top 3 world positions in math, reading and science... It is not a black and white type of issue...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 9:10:15 GMT -5
And i have also known several teachers who have been 'let go' or pressured into 'early retirement', as well as that teacher who the principal took up the process of actually documenting in order to outright 'fire' her... Again, the exception proves the rule. The fact that this event is so unusual is the very reason it occupies space in your memory. A lousy teacher losing their job shouldn't be remarkable. It should be a matter of routine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:09:52 GMT -5
I'm obviously not explaining it well ...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 9:14:47 GMT -5
That isn't exactly accurate Paul... its more than just an outlier. And there are also questions of population as well... unless its an apples to apples comparison of demographics, you can't really say private or public is causal... private can generally pick their populations, private suggests more parental involvement, and if you control public schools for poverty, then our states move up to the top 3 world positions in math, reading and science... It is not a black and white type of issue... No, it's pretty straight forward. If parents in areas of "poverty" where given the same per-pupil money to spend on an education of their choice-- some would still not give a sh**, that's true-- most would send their kids to a better school. It's very simple, very predictable, and again- it's been tried in a living laboratory and it works.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 28, 2011 9:17:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:22:02 GMT -5
In both cases I can think if pushing retirment... it was 'behavioral' issues on behalf of the teacher... one smacked a kid... big no no... the other playfully threatened to staple ?, a kids hand to the desk?, something like that ... Both were older... I had one of them, he was a good teacher... maybe at the end of their game, should have left earlier... ? ...
Teaching generally has a continuum of support early on... you student teach before you leave school, then you are part of a new teacher program for 1-3 years... have a mentor the first year... and then groups you can meet in... its just so hard to imagine any situation which might come up in schools to try to prep for any contingency in college... and given that 1 in 3 teachers will leave the profession in the first 3 years, this kind of support program has helped with attrition, and also helped to make better teachers... I loved my mentor my second year (that school mentored ALL new teachers, even if they had experience, just to acclimate to the district) ... and then a few years later, i got to be a mentor... it was a good program... Principals, good ones, are a part of the system, and can also help with discipline, material acquisition, etc...
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