TENURE OUT, MERIT IN! Florida Taxpayers Win!

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Rick Scott just signed the law.

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On deck: Expansion of charter schools!

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www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/24/rick-scott-teacher-pay_n_840306.html

[jkapp]

IMO, a win for the students too as this should hopefully trim the dead-weight teachers that ride tenure to retirement...

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2011 15:22:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

IMO, a win for the students too as this should hopefully trim the dead-weight teachers that ride tenure to retirement...

Also looks like it will help empower students to get rid of the teachers they dislike by choosing to do poorly on tests.

[Deleted]

Mar 25, 2011 15:33:02 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2011 15:22:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

IMO, a win for the students too as this should hopefully trim the dead-weight teachers that ride tenure to retirement...

Also looks like it will help empower students to get rid of the teachers they dislike by choosing to do poorly on tests.

Yeah.....because that's an excellent way to get in to college! Seriously, some of you just make up random comments for no reason.

Edit: By random, I mean, you pick the most outrageous scenario as if it will be the modus operandi.

[ugonow]

Lol,the whole semester will be devoted to getting kids to do well on the one test for their raise. Kinda like NCLB and how schools fudge those....

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Mar 25, 2011 15:33:02 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2011 15:22:58 GMT -5 jkapp said:

IMO, a win for the students too as this should hopefully trim the dead-weight teachers that ride tenure to retirement...

Also looks like it will help empower students to get rid of the teachers they dislike by choosing to do poorly on tests.

Any moral hazard is preferrable to the moral hazard presented with the knowledge you cannot be fired no matter how poor your performance.

Might actually force some teachers to develop PEOPLE SKILLS.

[jkapp]

Mar 25, 2011 15:36:15 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Lol,the whole semester will be devoted to getting kids to do well on the one test for their raise. Kinda like NCLB and how schools fudge those....

At least they're trying to get successful outcomes...it's better than giving them a raise whether the students learned anything or did well on tests or not.

[Deleted]

Mar 25, 2011 15:36:15 GMT -5 ugonow said:

Lol,the whole semester will be devoted to getting kids to do well on the one test for their raise. Kinda like NCLB and how schools fudge those....

I see comment #5 also applies to your post. Teachers WITH Tenure already teach for that 1 (STANDARDIZED) test, but it's different in your eyes if teachers that aren't tenured are doing the same thing? Perhaps standardized testing should be phased out, as well as Tenure being removed.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2011 15:34:43 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Mar 25, 2011 15:33:02 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Also looks like it will help empower students to get rid of the teachers they dislike by choosing to do poorly on tests.

Yeah.....because that's an excellent way to get in to college! Seriously, some of you just make up random comments for no reason.

Edit: By random, I mean, you pick the most outrageous scenario as if it will be the modus operandi.

I am sure will only be a few people who have their careers ruined by venegeful children.

[henryclay]

".......... Perhaps standardized testing should be phased out, as well as Tenure being removed......"

EXACTLY!!!

Standardized tests reflect the culture and ethnicity of the people who make up the tests. Students should be tested in the subjects they are taught, from the material used in the teaching process. No more and no less.

That's the way it was for 200 years and the country did okay with it. Political correctness has had its day.

[Deleted]

Mar 25, 2011 16:02:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 25, 2011 15:34:43 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Yeah.....because that's an excellent way to get in to college! Seriously, some of you just make up random comments for no reason.

Edit: By random, I mean, you pick the most outrageous scenario as if it will be the modus operandi.

I am sure will only be a few people who have their careers ruined by venegeful children.

How does Tenure stop that situation in your mind? What exactly does Tenure have to do with a "vengeful" child trying to "ruin" someone's career?

I can make up my own random outrageous scenario for "Vengeful Student Syndrome": Timmy is in the 5th grade and doesn't like Mr. Waffelfries because Mr. Wafflefries gives the students homework every day. One day Timmy goes to the Principal and says Mr. Wafflefries "touched" him. Now Mr. Wafflefries is under investigation and the court of public opinion is against him, because Timmy is just a child!

In this scenario, what does having tenure have to do with anything? Nothing.

[deziloooooo]

My only thought is , you have a teacher say 16 years experience in elementary school, making say $48,000 and you can get a new hire for $26,000, older teacher is qualified no problems, her class ratings are good, what stops a school board replacing her/him because of finances? Any thoughts, was this addressed by the Governor.
I know all the school districts in Florida are under financial pressure so why not a massive replacement of teachers with lower paid help, they send jobs off shore for that reason, why not the same in shore. Just a thought.

[ed1066]

My only thought is , you have a teacher say 16 years experience in elementary school, making say $48,000 and you can get a new hire for $26,000, older teacher is qualified no problems, her class ratings are good, what stops a school board replacing her/him because of finances?

Nothing I hope, just like a REAL JOB, where your performance, not your age, determines whether or not you get to keep working there...

[formerexpat]

Also looks like it will help empower students to get rid of the teachers they dislike by choosing to do poorly on tests.

Aren't you the one that quickly dismisses conspiracy theories on these boards?

We can just file this one away in that category.

[EVT1]

Mar 25, 2011 17:09:36 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

My only thought is , you have a teacher say 16 years experience in elementary school, making say $48,000 and you can get a new hire for $26,000, older teacher is qualified no problems, her class ratings are good, what stops a school board replacing her/him because of finances? Any thoughts, was this addressed by the Governor.
I know all the school districts in Florida are under financial pressure so why not a massive replacement of teachers with lower paid help, they send jobs off shore for that reason, why not the same in shore. Just a thought.

That's the idea- drive down wages. Students, teacher quality, budgets have squat to do with this.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 25, 2011 17:14:27 GMT -5 @ed1066 said:

My only thought is , you have a teacher say 16 years experience in elementary school, making say $48,000 and you can get a new hire for $26,000, older teacher is qualified no problems, her class ratings are good, what stops a school board replacing her/him because of finances?

Nothing I hope, just like a REAL JOB, where your performance, not your age, determines whether or not you get to keep working there...

I just read the Miami Herald article posted here, it will go into affect with new hires next year, not those already teaching.
It's going to cost a lot to get the tests on line, and for th beginning, since new hires , the $ won't be a factor , but I wonder say seven years in when teachers with experience salary's are way above new hires, if that won't be a factor when they go to rehire teachers for the next year , and I wonder when they let them know if they will be rehired, according to the article they are hired on a one year contract only, so how soon after a school year is finished will it be known when they will be hired for the next year, so if not, they have time to look for new employment.

Also, I see a problem with teachers out side of the district coming to a new district , being passed over for new hires , much lower salary's.

I know you home school your children ed, or you said you do anyway, so you don't have much empathy for teachers, but most people find that this , public education, is the way for them , so it is a concern.
I just raised some points , I wonder how it will work out. I do not trust the school boards who are also under the gun on finances to do the right thing here, my mistrust, when costs are so paramount as they are now, this hiring of lower paid help is a way out of a budget crunch and in Florida, as are most States, this is a major problem.

[billisonboard]

Mar 25, 2011 16:28:20 GMT -5 @financialtexan said:

Mar 25, 2011 16:02:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am sure will only be a few people who have their careers ruined by venegeful children.

How does Tenure stop that situation in your mind? What exactly does Tenure have to do with a "vengeful" child trying to "ruin" someone's career?

I can make up my own random outrageous scenario for "Vengeful Student Syndrome": Timmy is in the 5th grade and doesn't like Mr. Waffelfries because Mr. Wafflefries gives the students homework every day. One day Timmy goes to the Principal and says Mr. Wafflefries "touched" him. Now Mr. Wafflefries is under investigation and the court of public opinion is against him, because Timmy is just a child!

In this scenario, what does having tenure have to do with anything? Nothing.

You changed from my plural "children" to singular "child". You also changed from my looking at the test to the issue of tenure. In my senerio, a group for 5th graders can intentionally bomb the standardized test because Ms. Jones is a meany. Low test scores are one reason to let a teacher go (and btw, fifth graders don't really care about getting into a good college).

[handyman2]

My wife taught in florida schools for 30 plus years. The real teaching change came about when no child left behind came into being. Fla has had many good teachers. But the economic pressure to meet the standardized test changed the way teachers had to teach. They had to teach to the test or the district could lose funding if the student average was not high enough. The problem was that the test was written by people who never taught in a class room nor had any idea what the subject matter normally being taught was so the tests did not accurately reflect what the students were being taught. So pressure was on for teachers to teach strictly to the test. How do you get a fifth grade to grasp the abstract math like algebra? as an example.
When my wife retired a high percentage of new teachers left the system by their third or fourth year of teaching frustrated with the system. The issue of hiring new teachers to reduce costs will be a failure under current conditions.

[jkapp]

Mar 25, 2011 19:39:17 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

My wife taught in florida schools for 30 plus years. The real teaching change came about when no child left behind came into being. Fla has had many good teachers. But the economic pressure to meet the standardized test changed the way teachers had to teach. They had to teach to the test or the district could lose funding if the student average was not high enough. The problem was that the test was written by people who never taught in a class room nor had any idea what the subject matter normally being taught was so the tests did not accurately reflect what the students were being taught. So pressure was on for teachers to teach strictly to the test. How do you get a fifth grade to grasp the abstract math like algebra? as an example.
When my wife retired a high percentage of new teachers left the system by their third or fourth year of teaching frustrated with the system. The issue of hiring new teachers to reduce costs will be a failure under current conditions.

SO you're saying that all new teachers suck? Only old teachers know how to teach children? Those old teachers were new once too, you know...

Perhaps new teachers, who are not stuck in old ways they've been accustomed to for a decade or two, will figure out how to make teaching to tests work as a learning tool??? Can't teach an old dog new tricks, and all that...

[handyman2]

JKAPP; Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say new teachers suck at all, I said they get frustrated with the way the system is screwed up. The problem is not good teachers it is brought on by constant changing by people who never taught in a class room. In short the demands make it difficult for old or new teachers to educate the children.
I recommend you go sit in a 6th grade classroom for a month and see for yourself and it might help your reading comprehension.

[deziloooooo]

I just got off the phone with my cousin, she is a retired teacher, and guidance councilor , has over a 1000 hours extra courses, two more degrees and worked in NY state, very well paid, they were so glad she and another counselor retired, paying to much money, over a $100,000 per , great retirement, however she was GREAT at what she did, still is called on by her Principal at times for advice, so she earned her $, worked very hard, but any way away from her, I mentioned the new state of affairs in Florida and she said that while there are very good teachers, there are so many bad ones, and in her job as counselor she had direct dealings with so many unlike just being in a class room.
So I will bend to one who has been there, possible it is something that is needed.
They did replace teachers for cause but it wasn't easy, had to counsel them, keep good paper trails, observation of, and the unions would always defend the teacher

[jkapp]

Mar 25, 2011 20:20:42 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

JKAPP; Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say new teachers suck at all, I said they get frustrated with the way the system is screwed up. The problem is not good teachers it is brought on by constant changing by people who never taught in a class room. In short the demands make it difficult for old or new teachers to educate the children.
I recommend you go sit in a 6th grade classroom for a month and see for yourself and it might help your reading comprehension.

And I would welcome teachers to try and find those private jobs that pay so much more and have better benefits than their teaching jobs to see how working in the real world works for them. My guess is many would go whimpering back to their teacher jobs in a flash...

They could also see what it's like to have the teachers whine and moan about their salaries and benefits while they get government to forcefully raise their taxes and steal more of their money...because, of course, it's for "the children!" Never mind that they just financially hurt the parents to care for their own children.

[verrip1]

'Teaching to tests' is another example of the tactics of the failed status quo. What it actually means is 'teaching to baseline standards'. Tests simply demonstrate that the baseline standards are being met. The rest is defensive BS.

State legislatures for years have focused on tweaking the curriculum requirements to indoctrinate kids into conservative or liberal causes. It really is a disgusting thing; using teachers to politically affect young people Here in California, the indoctrination changes have been almost fully from the liberal side. You name the social issue, and the state legislatures have proposed laws to tinker with the school curriculum every year from kindergarten through 12th grade. Texas looks to have more conservative propaganda in their school curriculum changes, but since I don't live there, all I can say is that the MSM reports sure focus on such.

This refocus away from core subject matter into current sociological manipulation always results in less attention, ie class hours, to the core educational needs and more attention to trendy child manipulation. Inherently, that results in more students performing poorer in standardized tests about core competency.

Maybe somebody could provide the reasons why the defined public school curriculum for a second grader should be modified in the slightest more frequently than every ten years.

Have you any idea how much money could be saved for better school spending than by keeping most of the curriculum steady for 10 years? Same texts for many classes, just buy replacements for loss and more for growth. Teachers need only fine tune their lesson plans each year with any creativity they have learned, not try to redistribute the actual course content to meet ever-changing targets. Not rigid absolutism; more inflexible in the lower grades, but with more flexibility in the higher grades.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 25, 2011 20:28:49 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Mar 25, 2011 20:20:42 GMT -5 handyman2 said:

JKAPP; Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say new teachers suck at all, I said they get frustrated with the way the system is screwed up. The problem is not good teachers it is brought on by constant changing by people who never taught in a class room. In short the demands make it difficult for old or new teachers to educate the children.
I recommend you go sit in a 6th grade classroom for a month and see for yourself and it might help your reading comprehension.

And I would welcome teachers to try and find those private jobs that pay so much more and have better benefits than their teaching jobs to see how working in the real world works for them. My guess is many would go whimpering back to their teacher jobs in a flash...

They could also see what it's like to have the teachers whine and moan about their salaries and benefits while they get government to forcefully raise their taxes and steal more of their money...because, of course, it's for "the children!" Never mind that they just financially hurt the parents to care for their own children.

jkapp, you must have been a lousy student, never got anything out of the experience and I am sure it wasn't the teachers but you to feel so down on the profession.

They all have a least a BS and most have a lot more then that.

Many have served our country in service before they enter this profession, i had two of them in high school, one a major in the reserves in a Special forces unit, he was the commander and with all that work he was a great teacher. The other one, landed in Normandy on the 1st wave, received the medal a few days later , lost a leg, yet was a wonderful history teacher, made the subject come alive.

It's a great honored profession, they are not over paid, they get what a person with a higher education, a degree should get and over paid , only in th eyes of those who don't approach those levels, and that's because they are jealous yet weren't willing to spend the time or money to reach those levels of education.
Are they all great at their job? No, but like all workers in professions, I would say most more then fulfill their duties well.

[deziloooooo]

Mar 26, 2011 2:58:21 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Children are not widgets. And learning is not a passive event. It isn't like teachers just drop a boatload of information on them and they sit and absorb it like a passive sponges. Not sure how you pay for "merit". Should we pay doctors for "merit"? If all of their patients are not in perfect physical condition, should we revoke their licenses, or can they only work with what they have and the patients they have? If they have patients who are overweight, drink to excess, smoke, live an unhealthy lifestyle, is it the fault of the physicians?
What control do the teachers have over these kids lives except a few hours for 180 days? Do the teachers get to determine a healthy diet to help the kids learn? Do they get to ensure that these kids are put to bed at a reasonable hour and not up all night playing video games or on Facebook? Do they get to go into the homes and stop abuse, neglect? Do they get to put these children's life situations back together like broken marriages, divorce or other life events?
In reality, you are simply going wind up firing a lot of good teachers with such an idiotic approach. And, you are going to treat teachers as if they are just some disposable commodity as well. Teachers are human beings too but if that is how you want to treat other working people, then expect it to translate across the board.
And, funny how we have to always dogpile the teachers. Let's set up some "merit" standards for our legislators FIRST.

You make some good points snerd...I go along with you there.

[billisonboard]

Mar 26, 2011 2:58:21 GMT -5 Lady Gaga Gaga Snerd said:

Children are not widgets. ...

They do, however, become a known quantity very quickly within a school setting. By making student assignments at the elementary grade levels, principals will determine who gets merit pay and who will be fired. By assigning teachers particular classes and/or times of classes to teach, principals will do the same at the upper levels. Teachers will compete for favor from principals and sue when thwarted. The best teachers will work to be reassigned from certain schools and will work to transfer from districts with students most challenged by external factors. This doesn't improve education, it just changes the game.

[billisonboard]

I think that one factor that is significant is that teaching is the only occupation in which most of us had 12 years of close personal exposure. Then if you have/had kids, you have that exposure. Because of that, too many people think that they are experts on teaching.

[Shirina]

I wouldn't want to be a kid in any inner-city school in Florida right now, especially one where many of the students don't even speak English. I would want to be a teacher there even less.

Basing pay on merit is all well and good if all classrooms were equal and only teacher skill influenced the outcome, but we all know that isn't the case. Teachers already will crawl through broken glass trying to avoid teaching in some of these problem areas, but knowing that their career advancement is going to depend on their ability to apply a high sheen to a turd is going to keep even below average teachers away from those schools.

For many teachers working in these violence-prone, gang-infested areas, it often comes down to just a few children. The majority will never do well in school because many of the kids simply don't want to ... or don't care enough to try. Teachers can only do so much, but now they will be expected to do the impossible.