NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 22, 2017 12:14:40 GMT -5
Of course it's my personal perception. I just don't see it. Take, for instance, an article I read the other day. In Louisiana, many people are declared guilty without due process because the state doesn't have the money to pay public defenders. That doesn't sound first world to me. The roads in my town and adjacent towns have craters on them. There's a couple of collapsed bridges in the neighboring town that have been closed for over a year. The state's capital, Hartford, is about to declare bankruptcy. Another thing is the lack of safety net for recent parents, where they can get 12 weeks if they are lucky but try that without income. Or the fact that workers are not guaranteed vacation time or certain medical coverage. It depends on your employer. All those things, and others, don't make me feel like I live in the first world. And I'm sure the countries I listed have their own sets of problems. Nothing is perfect. Then what prompted you to come here? I forget when you said you came here, but I believe a lot of the issues you point out and have a problem with were around when you moved here. Why here and not Germany? Well, that didn't take long. What is up with all the defensiveness? There are three more pages for me to read, but why attack someone's questions if you don't agree with their opinion rather than reasoning out why this is incorrect in your opinion? I have never made a secret of the fact that I like living here but in one aspect Ava is absolutely right, the immense difference in wealth seen in this country is more an indicator of a third world rather than a first world country. Other things she mentioned are IMO not so much an indicator of first/third world countries, but of whether a country is into a socialized capitalistic approach to life or not. Now I do live in the state that many here dismissively refer to as "the land of fruits and nuts" and then, while feeling very superior to those in this state, proceed without hesitation or a twinge of shame to live in a state that can be only be described as a welfare queen among states.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 12:28:19 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people can be pro-life and not provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Hopefully once this group gets a better understanding of the issues involved they will change their priorities. But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 22, 2017 12:30:26 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people can be pro-life and not provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Hopefully once this group gets a better understanding of the issues involved they will change their priorities. But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. For now...
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 22, 2017 12:49:00 GMT -5
Scandinavian countries are often held up as models of general wonderfulness and just overall superiority in every way in comparison to the U.S. What never gets mentioned in this storm of U.S. bashing is the fact that all of those countries are considerably smaller than the U.S. and, until every recently, had entirely homogeneous populations with many centuries of shared cultural traditions and very, very little diversity or immigration. It is much easier to achieve consensus on social, political, and economic issues in a homogeneous culture, especially if the population is comparatively small and the geographic, social, cultural, religious, and other conditions in which that population lives are very similar and they all have basically the same history.
it is unrealistic to expect a much larger, more diverse nation with a different origin, history, system of government, geography, climate (and climate range), and a whole laundry list of other significant differences to develop in the same way as very small, homogeneous, countries surrounded by other small, homogeneous (and often similar) countries.
Not to mention the fact that all that Scandinavian wonderfulness and engineered "equality" is achieved and maintained by taxes that approach, and in some cases exceed, 50%. They also have done some things that we would find reprehensible. For example, Dad tells about discussing education for special needs children with a Norwegian educator back in the 1960's. The visiting professor stated that Norway didn't need education programs for special needs children. A baby that was expected to grow into a special needs child was euthanized at birth.
Is there any sort of backup to support this? I am not necessarily disputing that someone said it to someone who said it to you, but I do not believe it has basis in fact. It sounds scary, and makes a great tidbit to toss out that would make people less inclined to want to do stuff like Norway for sure. Currently though, I believe euthanasia and physician assisted suicide are not legal in Norway.
For the nations where euthanasia is legal (like the Netherlands) the criteria is "the presence of hopeless and unbearable suffering", not simply "special needs". It also requires consent from the parents, so certainly even if they were euthanizing special needs babies, it would not be ALL of them. Throwaway statements that indicate people in other countries are killing babies willy-nilly because they might have Aspergers or something are misleading and highly inflammatory.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 12:55:02 GMT -5
But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. For now... "For now" is all there ever is. Plenty of socialized countries have had to back off their pensions and other programs. It doesn't always financially work the way it was intended.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 22, 2017 13:38:05 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people can be pro-life and not provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Hopefully once this group gets a better understanding of the issues involved they will change their priorities. But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. Yes, and Country Girl has said that she is very concerned that the care/assistance her daughter gets will not continue to be available. She had her placed in a group home, but felt the care she was getting there was substandard. Giramoma is unexpectedly expecting in her early 40's and is afraid she will have a special needs child and the Republicans will change the pre-existing conditions coverage and the child may end up uninsurable. Making a decision to terminate a pregnancy due to potential complications for Mother or Child is difficult enough, it just seems wrong to add in the stress of will I have adequate insurance coverage if there are any complications.
And I am sorry, but if you listen to the trials some of our members with special needs family members go through with the current level of support, even the current level is not adequate.
In Wisconsin and in most of the country the needs of Mentally Ill adults are mostly ignored. We have been under Court order in Milwaukee to provide group home living for Mentally Ill adults but in something like 30 years, we haven't made any significant moves to meet the needs of this population (hint it's about the $$). It's easier for lawmakers to just give lip service to meeting the needs of the population than to actually design a program that would do that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 13:53:59 GMT -5
I just don't understand how people can be pro-life and not provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Hopefully once this group gets a better understanding of the issues involved they will change their priorities. But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. I've worked in institutions, group homes, the works. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We may do better than we used to. We may do better than some others might. It's not adequate. It's certainly not adequate if 'life' is a priority. Me, I'd terminate if there was any reasonable chance. Or if I couldn't know before a deadline for legal termination, I'd terminate just in case. I know that makes some uncomfortable, but it's honest truth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 13:55:21 GMT -5
But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. Yes, and Country Girl has said that she is very concerned that the care/assistance her daughter gets will not continue to be available. She had her placed in a group home, but felt the care she was getting there was substandard. Giramoma is unexpectedly expecting in her early 40's and is afraid she will have a special needs child and the Republicans will change the pre-existing conditions coverage and the child may end up uninsurable. Making a decision to terminate a pregnancy due to potential complications for Mother or Child is difficult enough, it just seems wrong to add in the stress of will I have adequate insurance coverage if there are any complications.
And I am sorry, but if you listen to the trials some of our members with special needs family members go through with the current level of support, even the current level is not adequate.
In Wisconsin and in most of the country the needs of Mentally Ill adults are mostly ignored. We have been under Court order in Milwaukee to provide group home living for Mentally Ill adults but in something like 30 years, we haven't made any significant moves to meet the needs of this population (hint it's about the $$). It's easier for lawmakers to just give lip service to meeting the needs of the population than to actually design a program that would do that.
I have listened. We emptied institutions under court orders to send the mentally ill who were not dangerous back to their families and their communities. The truth is that they weren't really wanted by either. Every time a group home is proposed, the neighbors attend the zoning meetings and say, "Not in my community!" It's not an easy problem to solve. Much like education, money isn't the entire answer. But even if it was, social services have to be paid for. How much are you willing to pay in taxes for these services? Is 40% of your income off the top too much? 50%? It won't be cheap, and you will be paying for some services that you won't directly use much as you pay for schools whether your kids go to private school or not. Is that ok? On a more "amusing" note, according to the source I linked, most mental health services aren't covered in Norway. It has to be something like autism. Depression is too common because of the lack of sunlight.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:14:01 GMT -5
I would say a country like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany or France are first world in my opinion. The issues that make me question whether the U.S. is first world are, mainly; -high income inequality -expensive healthcare that is not accessible to all citizens -insufficient mental health care -expensive education -expensive child care -crumbling infrastructure and lack of access to good public transportation systems -high incarceration rates and for-profit prisons -lack of a good social safety net All these issues could be easily fixed, I believe. The money and the resources are there. So you believe only socialist countries are first world countries?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 14:16:49 GMT -5
I can't find anything to support this statement. Link, please.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 22, 2017 14:18:39 GMT -5
I think our problem in general is that unless something directly affects us, we don't want to be bothered funding it. Childless people complaining about school taxes, healthy people complaining about funding programs for addicts/mentally ill... an educated and healthy population is good for ALL of us. But unless the addict is in their family or they have school aged children, nope - let everyone else worry about it.
The well-being of our society is EVERYONE'S business.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:20:37 GMT -5
You can't always tell a special needs child at birth. Then what? My Godfather was a doctor in a small town and he used to kill babies that weren't right when they were born and tell the family and mother that the child was born dead. Felt it was a blessing for the family. I'll bet he wasn't the only doctor that did this. Good God...he murdered children and thought it was a blessing?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 14:22:22 GMT -5
But we do provide insurance/care/support for special needs children and adults. Country Girl's daughter receives SSDI payments and gets Medicaid (or is Medicare, which also covers the disabled?). The state provided a placement for her in a group home, but it wasn't a good environment for her. She lives at home by her parents' choice. It is an admirable choice rooted in wanting to do what's best for her, but it nonetheless a choice. Without getting into a pro-life/pro-choice debate, it simply isn't true that we as a society abandoned our special needs children and adults. We do as well as other countries in this aspect. I've worked in institutions, group homes, the works. We'll just have to agree to disagree. We may do better than we used to. We may do better than some others might. It's not adequate. It's certainly not adequate if 'life' is a priority. Me, I'd terminate if there was any reasonable chance. Or if I couldn't know before a deadline for legal termination, I'd terminate just in case. I know that makes some uncomfortable, but it's honest truth. So would I. I grew up with a Down's child, and it was an absolute nightmare. He tried to kill my little sister. A friend gave birth to two preemies, even though she was warned not to. They're both blind, deaf, and have cerebral palsy. Husband left. it was too much to deal with. She tried to kill herself, and the kids, with carbon monoxide.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:25:06 GMT -5
I know many will not agree and it sounds horrible but you do not want a special needs child. If they know before hand how compromised they are it is a blessing to them and their families for euthanasia or best to have an abortion early on.
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 14:27:21 GMT -5
I think our problem in general is that unless something directly affects us, we don't want to be bothered funding it. Childless people complaining about school taxes, healthy people complaining about funding programs for addicts/mentally ill... an educated and healthy population is good for ALL of us. But unless the addict is in their family or they have school aged children, nope - let everyone else worry about it. The well-being of our society is EVERYONE'S business. Bravo! Well-said! That's what I keep telling people. Whether it's extended parental leave for bonding, preventative care, or subsidised higher education, it benefits the entire population as a whole. Happy and healthy families lead to happy and healthy communities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:29:34 GMT -5
I know many will not agree and it sounds horrible but you do not want a special needs child. If they know before hand how compromised they are it is a blessing to them and their families for euthanasia or best to have an abortion early on.
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. I'm sure it depends how special needs we're talking and if they're capable of taking care of themselves at all. I know my aunt has said similar for her son that was born at 24 weeks. I really can't imagine having to provide that level of care until your death and then not knowing that they're going to be ok after you're gone.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:30:04 GMT -5
I worry more about DS's girlfriend who keeps talking about having kids. She's at least 36 and DS is almost 34 so you have old eggs and old sperm. If she gets pregnant I'll have to really zip my lips. Hopefully she gets whatever tests are available and fingers crossed there are no mistakes. In my years of teaching kids with special needs there have been two intact couples parenting. All the fathers left. I'd hate for DS to do the same thing. And if the men are such assholes to abandon their children and wife when she needs him most, I say good riddance! He was an asshole to begin with.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:31:32 GMT -5
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. I'm sure it depends how special needs we're talking and if they're capable of taking care of themselves at all. I know my aunt has said similar for her son that was born at 24 weeks. I really can't imagine having to provide that level of care until your death and then not knowing that they're going to be ok after you're gone. You are right...much easier to murder them...sorry, euthanize them, so one doesn't have to worry about them
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 22, 2017 14:31:43 GMT -5
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. I'm sure it depends how special needs we're talking and if they're capable of taking care of themselves at all. I know my aunt has said similar for her son that was born at 24 weeks. I really can't imagine having to provide that level of care until your death and then not knowing that they're going to be ok after you're gone. is this the cousin that's completely blind/deaf/immobile?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:33:59 GMT -5
I'm sure it depends how special needs we're talking and if they're capable of taking care of themselves at all. I know my aunt has said similar for her son that was born at 24 weeks. I really can't imagine having to provide that level of care until your death and then not knowing that they're going to be ok after you're gone. You are right...much easier to murder them...sorry, euthanize them, so one doesn't have to worry about them No. But maybe not spend millions of dollars and take extraordinary measures to keep a 12 ounce baby alive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:35:33 GMT -5
I'm sure it depends how special needs we're talking and if they're capable of taking care of themselves at all. I know my aunt has said similar for her son that was born at 24 weeks. I really can't imagine having to provide that level of care until your death and then not knowing that they're going to be ok after you're gone. is this the cousin that's completely blind/deaf/immobile? Yes. He's in his 30's and my 68 year old, 4'10" aunt has to carry him from the floor to his chair and in and out of the van. Luckily, he probably only weighs about 50 some pounds due to complete muscle atrophy.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 22, 2017 14:35:43 GMT -5
You are right...much easier to murder them...sorry, euthanize them, so one doesn't have to worry about them No. But maybe not spend millions of dollars and take extraordinary measures to keep a 12 ounce baby alive. I'm not disagreeing with that but that is also not actively murdering a baby. But that is also not what was being discussed. What was being discussed was actively murdering an infant and that absolutely horrifies me.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 22, 2017 14:38:54 GMT -5
is this the cousin that's completely blind/deaf/immobile? Yes. He's in his 30's and my 68 year old, 4'10" aunt has to carry him from the floor to his chair and in and out of the van. Luckily, he probably only weighs about 50 some pounds due to complete muscle atrophy. do they know if he has some significant brain activity?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 22, 2017 14:39:40 GMT -5
I know many will not agree and it sounds horrible but you do not want a special needs child. If they know before hand how compromised they are it is a blessing to them and their families for euthanasia or best to have an abortion early on.
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. Miss Tequila , we may not be on the same side of the aisle w.r.t. to politics but I have always admired what both you and countrygirl2 have done for your special needs children. However, we have to admit that there is special needs and special needs. These children don't all come with the same needs and their parents don't come all with the same resources be it physical/emotional/financial so it does no good for any of us to use that (by me) much hated phrase "if I can do it, anyone can".
I would like to bring up this instance that was discussed years ago here on the boards where a mother took her severly autistic 19yo across state borders into, if I remember correctly Tennessee, and abandoned her. She had tried to get help in her home state for the daughter but none was forthcoming. She had a younger son at home with the same handicap and could not handle the two of them without any help from society. Call me callous, but I truly believe that unless society is willing to actually help out with these children long term, I refuse to condemn statements as those above.
In the mean time I am truly ever more grateful that my sons were born healthy and fly the coop when their time came...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 22, 2017 14:44:14 GMT -5
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. Miss Tequila , we may not be on the same side of the aisle w.r.t. to politics but I have always admired what both you and countrygirl2 have done for your special needs children. However, we have to admit that there is special needs and special needs. These children don't all come with the same needs and their parents don't come all with the same resourses be it physical/emotional/financial so it does no good for any of us to use that (by me) much hated phrase "if I can do it, anyone can".
I would like to bring up this instance that was discussed years ago here on the boards where a mother took her severly autistic 19yo across state borders into, if I remember correctly Tennessee, and abandoned her. She had tried to get help in her home state for the daughter but none was forthcoming. She had a younger son at home with the same handicap and could not handle the two of them without any help from society. Call me callous, but I truly believe that unless society is willing to actually help out with these children long term, I refuse to condemn statements as those above.
In the mean time I am truly ever more grateful that my sons were born healthy and fly the coop when their time came...
Yes. My son is special needs, but is high-functioning, and can look after himself. I don't have to worry about what will happen to him when I'm gone.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 22, 2017 14:45:44 GMT -5
I am the mother of a special needs child and I am completely horrified by what you just said. Miss Tequila , we may not be on the same side of the aisle w.r.t. to politics but I have always admired what both you and countrygirl2 have done for your special needs children. However, we have to admit that there is special needs and special needs. These children don't all come with the same needs and their parents don't come all with the same resourses be it physical/emotional/financial so it does no good for any of us to use that (by me) much hated phrase "if I can do it, anyone can".
I would like to bring up this instance that was discussed years ago here on the boards where a mother took her severly autistic 19yo across state borders into, if I remember correctly Tennessee, and abandoned her. She had tried to get help in her home state for the daughter but none was forthcoming. She had a younger son at home with the same handicap and could not handle the two of them without any help from society. Call me callous, but I truly believe that unless society is willing to actually help out with these children long term, I refuse to condemn statements as those above.
In the mean time I am truly ever more grateful that my sons were born healthy and fly the coop when their time came...
I wish I could like this more than once.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 22, 2017 14:52:16 GMT -5
I believe Miss T is specifically referencing the doctor that killed special needs babies and then told the parents that the baby had died during birth. I'm equally horrified that he took it upon himself to be judge, jury and executioner.
My great uncle was born premature but the midwife who delivered him did not murder him and then tell my great grandmother he was still born. She took care of him and he grew into a perfectly healthy person. My grandmother, his sister, has cerebral palsy and you'd never know it unless you pay attention to her left arm.
Could it have gone the opposite direction for both of them? Of course it could but a doctor could not have known that the moment they were born. Especially in the 1930's when they were born.
I would be livid if I discovered my doctor killed my child to "save me the pain" of having a disabled child. That is not their call, it's our call as the parents. I will not judge parents for making the decision but I sure as hell will a doctor taking it upon themselves to decide.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 22, 2017 14:54:11 GMT -5
Then what prompted you to come here? I forget when you said you came here, but I believe a lot of the issues you point out and have a problem with were around when you moved here. Why here and not Germany? Well, that didn't take long. What is up with all the defensiveness? There are three more pages for me to read, but why attack someone's questions if you don't agree with their opinion rather than reasoning out why this is incorrect in your opinion? I have never made a secret of the fact that I like living here but in one aspect Ava is absolutely right, the immense difference in wealth seen in this country is more an indicator of a third world rather than a first world country. Other things she mentioned are IMO not so much an indicator of first/third world countries, but of whether a country is into a socialized capitalistic approach to life or not. Now I do live in the state that many here dismissively refer to as "the land of fruits and nuts" and then, while feeling very superior to those in this state, proceed without hesitation or a twinge of shame to live in a state that can be only be described as a welfare queen among states.
How is it an attack to ask why she chose this country? Especially after she noted several countries that have policies that coincide with what she deems is first world. Please reread my post. There was no attack. I didn't tell her to go back to her country if she hates it here so much. I didn't make a derogatory remark about immigrants. I simply asked why she chose to come here when I believe most of the things she has a problem with this country were already here - I know several, like Healthcare and education, were that way when she chose the US - yet there were other counties that had what she deems first world.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:56:05 GMT -5
Yes. He's in his 30's and my 68 year old, 4'10" aunt has to carry him from the floor to his chair and in and out of the van. Luckily, he probably only weighs about 50 some pounds due to complete muscle atrophy. do they know if he has some significant brain activity? I really don't know. I've never asked. He moves around and "talks" to himself a lot, so it's not like he's just lying there comatose.
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MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 22, 2017 14:59:09 GMT -5
do they know if he has some significant brain activity? I really don't know. I've never asked. He moves around and "talks" to himself a lot, so it's not like he's just lying there comatose. well okay, that's good. At least he's not comatose.
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