Thirteen Reasons Why on Netflix

[Shooby]

However, this is a very good conversation starter.

[Kolt!]

I'm sorry but rape isn't "high school" drama that should be brushed off. Two girls in this show and book were raped. That isn't high school drama that should get a roll of the eyes, or a "it will pass" or "it's just high school drama, big deal" 

Yes, being bullied will pass but rape will live with a person forever... literally forever. 

And when I said that she died a virgin my point was she was living with this title of slut, of being called a whore, of guys sexually assaulting her, grabbing her butt (which also is not just high school drama) these guys were taking advantage of her because they thought she was easy. She was treated like a sex object throughout high school which is also not just high school drama... being touched inappropriately and rape are not high school drama. My point was Hannah was labeled all of this when she never even had sex... she got the name slut and never even slept with a guy or did anything with a guy. She kissed two guys in the entire Tv show. Two. And because of Justin she suddenly couldn't trust any guys, because of that rumor guys started to think she was easy, asked her out, hurt her just to try to have sex with her... because of all of these guys... it destroyed her to even be able to be comfortable with a good guy. 

And even if she hadn't ended her life... that right there was enough to ruin her for future romances for the rest of her life. That's not high school drama. That right there is something someone may deal with at any age of their lives. The moment one guy touches someone wrong... they destroy that person for life... they make them ruin relationships, not know how to trust... and Hannah... Hannah kept getting a double whammy with skummy guys. 

Hannah couldn't walk down the street without being called names, boys in school stalked her, boys in school took pictures of her undressing in her bedroom, she wasn't safe in her home, she walks into a store and a guy grabs her ass, she goes on a date and a guy tries to seduce her because he thinks she's easy, she turns down a guy and he tries to make her feel miserable because he was hurt, she couldn't go anywhere without being stalked, touched in an inappropriate way, she couldn't get away from any of this... it's enough to make anyone go insane. I couldn't imagine having no safe place...a home that's not even safe because of a stalker who takes my pictures. I couldn't image going to school and daily being called names, or being tormented, or touched wrongly... Hannah literally could not get away from this. I honestly can't blame her for thinking death was her only solution after awhile when every day she had to wake up and risk someone taking her picture, or being called a slut, or being touched in a wrong way... it wasn't a one day thing, it was a daily thing. It wasn't just at school, it was at home, it was at the store. It wasn't just one person she could turn into the Police and hope for the best... it was multiple people... A stalker, A rapist, someone that sexually assaulted her, no matter where she went... she couldn't get away from them. They labeled her a slut. They branded her. And let's be honest? If she came forward how many people would take her word over the star players of the schools words? How long would they get in jail? Three months? Maybe less? Before they get out and she has to fear them again. Three months for her lifelong pain. 

That's not just high school drama. That isn't something that every high school kid has to face and if every girl does have to face that... then we have a serious problem with the world. Stuff like that shouldn't just be "accepted" and told to "get over" because it's "high school drama" and it will pass. No. Boys that do stuff like this deserve consequences. Yes, kids should be told to be "resilient" but in cases like this it should be on the boy... it should be on the boy to deserve a severe punishment for actions like this and not on the girl to be told to toughen up... but instead focus on a punishment for the boy.. not on how Hannah should have been stronger because Hannah shouldn't have had to be strong... Hannah should NEVER had to deal with this stuff and telling someone to toughen up because of something like this automatically excuses the boy because it makes it alright by trying to make the girl strong to deal with stuff like this instead of punishing the boy severely.

We need stories like this too... we don't need just "be strong" stories... we need stories to show what bullying can do. We don't need to accept bullying because it's a "normal thing" we need to wash it away and punish every bully out there. Yes, maybe bullying will never stop but... every bully should be punished to where eventually maybe the bullies will learn they won't get away with  it.  

[Shooby]

The point is that it didn't have to ruin and destroy her life Kolt.  She is much more than the events that happened to her.  Ending your life is saying to the world that the bullies have won.  They mean more than you.  They mean more than your parents and your friends and your family.   Yes, that is terrible and the rapists should have prosecuted.
  
  As for this story, what is the message?  Oh, you cannot overcome this so go kill yourself?  Is that the message you want to send to teens?

[movingforward]

I watched the final two episodes this morning. They me sad because if one thing had happened differently then she may not have killed herself. I am guessing that can be said for some people in real life that committed suicide, though I have no way of knowing that for sure.

SOME of the things that happened to her consisted of petty high school crap and some did not. Brice is an arrogant, entitled, and overall disgusting human being.

I have no words to describe Courtney. I absolutely can not stand her.

As the I continued to watch I started to feel sympathy for Justin. His home life was absolutely awful and though I didn't like him, I did start to feel sympathetic toward him.

Zac and Alex weren't bad guys. What they did was silly high school nonsense that was hurtful but I think deep down they were decent human beings.

I wish Hannah had reacted differently to certain situations but not everyone is the same. I have a relatively strong personality and sometimes I need to remind myself that some people do not. When I was in the 7th grade there was a boy in the 8th grade that liked me. There was girl that liked him and she got extremely upset that he liked me instead of her. She and her friends called me a whore, slut, you name it on a daily bases. This went on for about 4-5 months. Every single morning when I walked to my locker they would yell out something like "hey, whore." They would make harassing phone calls to house. At the time I went to the skating rink every Friday night. One Friday morning they told me they were going to beat me up if I showed at the skating rink that night. I told my mom about it and she said "are you still going to go?" I said yes and that they were not going to stop me from doing something I wanted to do. My mom said she supported my decision to stand up to them. She was nervous when she dropped me off but said I was brave. I showed up that night and they were waiting for me. They told me if I went to the bathroom I would "get jumped." I did end up going to the bathroom and they did follow me. Someone ended up getting the security guard and he got there before anything major happened. That was an absolutely awful year for me. I honestly can't imagine what it would have been like if there had been social media back then. Looking back, I really grew some tough skin that year. In hindsight, it probably has a lot to do with the type of person I am today.

Anyway, sorry to divert from the show...

SPOILER: Click to show

I am not sure what else the counselor could have done,though I do think he should have given her some resources regarding rape. I can honestly see why he wasn't sure about what happened to her because SHE didn't seem sure about what happened to her. she wouldn't give him a name or any information he could use to access the situation; however, I do feel like if he had ANY suspicion that she may have been raped that she should have referred her to a rape counselor that is better trained to deal with those situations. Other than that,like Kolt said, he couldn't have know how she WANTED him to react and that she was going to kill herself that day.

I really want to read the book now.

[Kolt!]

Apr 9, 2017 13:27:24 GMT -5 Shooby said:

The point is that it didn't have to ruin and destroy her life Kolt.  She is much more than the events that happened to her.  Ending your life is saying to the world that the bullies have won.  They mean more than you.  They mean more than your parents and your friends and your family.   Yes, that is terrible and the rapists should have prosecuted.
  
  As for this story, what is the message?  Oh, you cannot overcome this so go kill yourself?  Is that the message you want to send to teens?

It went past bullying. And no the message is to be kind to one another. This is real life. This is reality. The reality is that people end their lives and sometimes one kind word can change a persons mind. The message was that you don't know what could set someone off so why bully? Not all stories are happy endings. It showed how others were effected by her choice too. It wasn't saying killing your self is the way to go..if it had been the parents wouldn't be such a big part nor would heartbroken clay or Alex's storyline.

--
I did start to feel bad for Justin because of his home life. I also felt bad for Alex. I saw somewhere a post saying that clay, tony and Jeff were the good guys but Alex, zack and Justin can learn from their mistakes and be redeemed for their mistakes. Bryce however...no. Awful.

[Kolt!]

I'm sorry that all happened to you. social media really has made bullying so much worse. Parents of this generation will never 100 percent understand. Even my generation because social media wasn't big till out of hs. But now it's huge.

[Kolt!]

And if you didn't notice Hannah didn't have friends. Clay was a work buddy and crush, not a friend. She sat alone at lunch often. Her parents were too occupied with their business toward the ending which made her more lonely. Her parents at that point were her only friends who weren't even around much because of the business. That's not their fault ..they couldn't have known. But it was understandable why she felt she had nobody when she didn't have friends.

[whoisjohngalt]

Apr 9, 2017 18:58:26 GMT -5 movingforward said:

I watched the final two episodes this morning. They me sad because if one thing had happened differently then she may not have killed herself. I am guessing that can be said for some people in real life that committed suicide, though I have no way of knowing that for sure.

SOME of the things that happened to her consisted of petty high school crap and some did not. Brice is an arrogant, entitled, and overall disgusting human being.

I have no words to describe Courtney. I absolutely can not stand her.

As the I continued to watch I started to feel sympathy for Justin. His home life was absolutely awful and though I didn't like him, I did start to feel sympathetic toward him.

Zac and Alex weren't bad guys. What they did was silly high school nonsense that was hurtful but I think deep down they were decent human beings.

To me this book wasn't about suicide at all, but about how anyone of us can be going through our own personal hell (like Courtney) and how it might have a butterfly effect on others.  And as I said, how so self-involved we can really be.

I don't believe that other people can lead a person to suicide, I think it's a personal choice and a personal decision.  So, I don't blame those 13 for what Hannah did.

But our treatment of each other can certainly make others hurt and hurt deeply.  And it doesn't end in high school or college.  It never ends.  And THAT I think is the main point of the book. 

[movingforward]

Apr 9, 2017 20:28:10 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Apr 9, 2017 18:58:26 GMT -5 movingforward said:

I watched the final two episodes this morning. They me sad because if one thing had happened differently then she may not have killed herself. I am guessing that can be said for some people in real life that committed suicide, though I have no way of knowing that for sure.

SOME of the things that happened to her consisted of petty high school crap and some did not. Brice is an arrogant, entitled, and overall disgusting human being.

I have no words to describe Courtney. I absolutely can not stand her.

As the I continued to watch I started to feel sympathy for Justin. His home life was absolutely awful and though I didn't like him, I did start to feel sympathetic toward him.

Zac and Alex weren't bad guys. What they did was silly high school nonsense that was hurtful but I think deep down they were decent human beings.

To me this book wasn't about suicide at all, but about how anyone of us can be going through our own personal hell (like Courtney) and how it might have a butterfly effect on others.  And as I said, how so self-involved we can really be.

I don't believe that other people can lead a person to suicide, I think it's a personal choice and a personal decision.  So, I don't blame those 13 for what Hannah did.

But our treatment of each other can certainly make others hurt and hurt deeply.  And it doesn't end in high school or college.  It never ends.  And THAT I think is the main point of the book. 

Well, I agree with all of that. I actually never said I thought it was about suicide but just that it made me sad because things could have been different. 

[movingforward]

Also, what really struck me was the fact that people are willing to cover up something as vile as rape for their own self interest.

[Shooby]

I absolutely agree that social media puts pressure on these kids 10 fold. No question. And yes some of it was silly and also some very serious things happened to her.
I am sure almost all of us experienced some of this. And it is very painful even into adult years.
But she died for what? She gave them all her power over her own life. We can do better by teaching our kids better. And there was a lot of merit to yelling "sticks and stones " as a school yard chant.

[Kolt!]

She died so she didn't hurt anymore. She died so no boy could touch her in a way she didn't want to be touched anymore. She died so that she didn't have to feel the pain of words, or wake up to a nightmare, or dream about a nightmare. She died so she didn't feel anything anymore because to her the pain they put her through, the pain she put herself through was too much. She died so she wasn't in pain anymore. She took away the pain. She missed out on an entire life. She missed out on so much of life but to her the pain she was dealing with... the pain of not being able to be touched by a boy she loves because of what another boy does to her, the pain of boys slapping her on the butt, the pain of having no friends... to her... that pain wasn't worth it anymore. 

She died so nobody could touch her in a way these boys did... that's what she died for. Now. No boy can rape her again. No boy can slap her on the butt again. No boy can haunt her dreams. No boy can make her feel miserable. She died and now those boys... those boys that inappropriately touched her, those people that harmed her will have to live with that the rest of their lives knowing that they made a girl who was already mentally ill... her life worse. And each day they will have to live with those regrets because just being a friend could have saved her. Some won't care, granted. However, they'll never lay a hand on her again. 

She died to not hurt anymore. I don't agree with it. But there's always a reason. And just because one person can handle it and be tough doesn't mean someone else can. If one is mentally ill... and they're bullied it's likely it will end in disaster and telling someone to be "strong" be "resilient" will NEVER help. You can't teach someone not to not get hurt when they're being bullied. You can however punish bullies... and possibly scare them enough to if they bully they'll get in trouble and a severe punishment. You can scare someone not to bully but you can't teach someone not to get offended or hurt when they are bullied. 

[Shooby]

So just teach people to give up? Give in? Go. Oh that was horrible, might as well kill yourself because you can't ever feel good again and your life is over anyway? That's a better message?
Yeah she ended her pain. She also ended her joy. She ended her potential. She ended the chance to feel a man truly put loving arms around her. She ended the chance to hold her own child someday. She ended her chance to stand up daily and make the world a better place for others.
No you cant just Get Over those things. But she could have moved on beyond dreadful high school years. She could have moved on if she really reached out to her parents and others who loved her. Instead she looked for opportunities to be disappointed. Yes people will disappoint but she disappointed others too. We all do. She had health,2 arms, 2 legs, youth, beauty and she choose not to focus on the gratitude of her life which were those things and loving parents. And Clay was young and immature, he may have grown to realize his love for her later on. But now its over.

[whoisjohngalt]

Apr 9, 2017 20:40:01 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Also, what really struck me was the fact that people are willing to cover up something as vile as rape for their own self interest.

Happens all the time and in 'grown up" world are stakes are higher so cover ups are even bigger.

[Shooby]

  It was entertaining and thoughtful as a series, on some points.  And, yes, there is a good message there about being kinder to others along the way.  However, there is also a terrible message.  One of making a list of your grievances to nurse and make as the prominent issues in your life.  One of gathering your grievances and every interaction with someone else is their "test" of how they will treat and if you will kill yourself that day based on that.  That isn't the way to deal with this.  Yes, unfortunately there are kids and adults who do deal with it that way.  And, on some levels it really doesn't get any better because the adults behave worse than kids do nowadays.  The point isn't eliminating all mean people and bullies.  Yes, that would be great but humans being humans, we know that there are a zillion ways to dismiss someone, ignore them, etc. We need to teach kids coping skills.

  And, the counselor at the end, he tried to listen empathetically.  Yes, his cell was ringing, phone was ringing, etc.  There are interruptions in life.  He should have silenced everything but he was trying.  And, he offered her options.  To name the perp and prosecute.  Or to try to 'move on' and deal with it knowing that boy was leaving next year, etc.  What he said wasn't uncaring in any way.  He was TRYING to help her.  However, since he didnt' speak her language perfectly she choose to see that as another slam to her.

[movingforward]

Apr 10, 2017 5:58:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It was entertaining and thoughtful as a series, on some points.  And, yes, there is a good message there about being kinder to others along the way.  However, there is also a terrible message.  One of making a list of your grievances to nurse and make as the prominent issues in your life.  One of gathering your grievances and every interaction with someone else is their "test" of how they will treat and if you will kill yourself that day based on that.  That isn't the way to deal with this.  Yes, unfortunately there are kids and adults who do deal with it that way.  And, on some levels it really doesn't get any better because the adults behave worse than kids do nowadays.  The point isn't eliminating all mean people and bullies.  Yes, that would be great but humans being humans, we know that there are a zillion ways to dismiss someone, ignore them, etc. We need to teach kids coping skills.

  And, the counselor at the end, he tried to listen empathetically.  Yes, his cell was ringing, phone was ringing, etc.  There are interruptions in life.  He should have silenced everything but he was trying.  And, he offered her options.  To name the perp and prosecute.  Or to try to 'move on' and deal with it knowing that boy was leaving next year, etc.  What he said wasn't uncaring in any way.  He was TRYING to help her.  However, since he didnt' speak her language perfectly she choose to see that as another slam to her.

Yes, and this is what irritated me about her personality. I am guessing it was supposed to be irritating, or at least I hope so. I really hope the message isn't to just give up. That was her personality though and a lot of teenagers (and even some adults) can't think past 2 minutes from now.

I am interested to see what they do with Season 2. We know Alex shot himself. What I hope is that he survives and works through his guilt...becomes a better person.

[whoisjohngalt]

Wow, that's very different from the book, I don't remember anyone shooting themselves.

See, this is why I can't do both - I usually just pick the book version.

[Shooby]

There's a season 2?  I figured that was the end!

[movingforward]

I think they want to make a season 2 so they had to make some things different than the book. I would like to read the book so I can see how it compares to the series. There is always a better insight into the characters.

[movingforward]

Apr 10, 2017 5:58:44 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It was entertaining and thoughtful as a series, on some points.  And, yes, there is a good message there about being kinder to others along the way.  However, there is also a terrible message.  One of making a list of your grievances to nurse and make as the prominent issues in your life.  One of gathering your grievances and every interaction with someone else is their "test" of how they will treat and if you will kill yourself that day based on that.  That isn't the way to deal with this.  Yes, unfortunately there are kids and adults who do deal with it that way.  And, on some levels it really doesn't get any better because the adults behave worse than kids do nowadays.  The point isn't eliminating all mean people and bullies.  Yes, that would be great but humans being humans, we know that there are a zillion ways to dismiss someone, ignore them, etc. We need to teach kids coping skills.

  And, the counselor at the end, he tried to listen empathetically.  Yes, his cell was ringing, phone was ringing, etc.  There are interruptions in life.  He should have silenced everything but he was trying.  And, he offered her options.  To name the perp and prosecute.  Or to try to 'move on' and deal with it knowing that boy was leaving next year, etc.  What he said wasn't uncaring in any way.  He was TRYING to help her.  However, since he didnt' speak her language perfectly she choose to see that as another slam to her.

I came across this article today, and I have to say that I agree with a lot of what is stated. I do agree that the show sends a pretty bad message in terms of showing alternatives to suicide.

gma.yahoo.com/13-reasons-why-faces-backlash-suicide-prevention-advocacy-124116643--abc-news-tv.html

[Shooby]

Yes, just saw that online.