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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:17:58 GMT -5
The bigger problem is that the drugs are adulterated. That is the reason for the upswings of heroin overdoses, because addicts are not getting what they think that they are getting, but are getting drugs that have been adulterated with fentanyl or other drugs that are waaaay more potent than heroin. And because drug dealers have lousy QC, then purveyors have absolutely no idea what they are putting into themselves. But that isn't exactly a secret. Why would anyone take the chance?
And what about those that don't OD? Are you saying that heroin junkies can go on to be productive members of society of their heroin was controlled?
Who knows? Maybe the need to be high is stronger than the danger of an adulterated drug. Of course heroin junkies can be productive members of society. How many actors manage to put out a good performance while addicted? These are the ones that get the publicity, but how many people were high on coke in the 1990s and were perfectly functional?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 8, 2017 12:19:07 GMT -5
Sigmund Freud took cocaine, it was used as an antidepressant back in the 1800s'. If you think about it that explains a lot when it comes to some of his theories.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 12:19:09 GMT -5
And while you can treat the physical addiction issue relatively swiftly, the mental part is the tough part. Agreed. But then again it's nothing really new. Actually this wave of overdoses isn't anything that is really new. Heroin and opiates were all the rage of the late 70's which gave way to the coke generation of the 80's which morphed into the crack/meth wave of the 90's/00's and now back to heroin and opiates of the '10s. It's all cyclical and there's very little that can be done from a prevention standpoint. We've seen everything from tolerance (a methadone clinic on every corner), acceptance (Did I mention the coke generation?), ignorance (let's just pretend it's not there), to crackdown (Just say No kiddies) with little to no change in the cycle. I will admit I have very little patience for addicts in my personal life, but at the same time I'm not going to vilify them. Mostly I think I'm pragmatist when it comes to the issue. I agree and that's the scary part. Which is why I don't undertand the attitude in here by several posters. If heroin is no worse than alcohol then we should give it to our children on their 21st birthday instead of some alcohol....if that isn't something anyone wants to do, then it isn't the same as alcohol.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 12:20:16 GMT -5
But that isn't exactly a secret. Why would anyone take the chance?
And what about those that don't OD? Are you saying that heroin junkies can go on to be productive members of society of their heroin was controlled?
Who knows? Maybe the need to be high is stronger than the danger of an adulterated drug. Of course heroin junkies can be productive members of society. How many actors manage to put out a good performance while addicted? These are the ones that get the publicity, but how many people were high on coke in the 1990s and were perfectly functional? Heroin is not the same as coke. I know many successful people did coke in the 80s (I don't mean I knew them personally...just that I know it happened). Can we really same the same about heroin? Because I don't think we can.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:21:22 GMT -5
And while you can treat the physical addiction issue relatively swiftly, the mental part is the tough part. Agreed. But then again it's nothing really new. Actually this wave of overdoses isn't anything that is really new. Heroin and opiates were all the rage of the late 70's which gave way to the coke generation of the 80's which morphed into the crack/meth wave of the 90's/00's and now back to heroin and opiates of the '10s. It's all cyclical and there's very little that can be done from a prevention standpoint. We've seen everything from tolerance (a methadone clinic on every corner), acceptance (Did I mention the coke generation?), ignorance (let's just pretend it's not there), to crackdown (Just say No kiddies) with little to no change in the cycle. I will admit I have very little patience for addicts in my personal life, but at the same time I'm not going to vilify them. Mostly I think I'm pragmatist when it comes to the issue. Actually, it is pretty new. The ODs are being caused by either fentanyl, or carfantanil (a drug to sedate elephants). Not only that, drug manufacturers are getting really good at taking a drug like fentanyl, knocking off a side group and adding another which is a whole 'nuther drug that the GC/Mass spec can't identify. This wasn't happening 10 years ago, and it definitely wasn't happening in the 1970s.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 8, 2017 12:22:18 GMT -5
Who knows? Maybe the need to be high is stronger than the danger of an adulterated drug. Of course heroin junkies can be productive members of society. How many actors manage to put out a good performance while addicted? These are the ones that get the publicity, but how many people were high on coke in the 1990s and were perfectly functional? Heroin is not the same as coke. I know many successful people did coke in the 80s (I don't mean I knew them personally...just that I know it happened). Can we really same the same about heroin? Because I don't think we can. If someone is using heroin and it isn't outwardly a problem, will we ever know? They certainly aren't going to talk about it!!!
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 8, 2017 12:26:17 GMT -5
The drug problem is heartbreaking. I don't have an answer and I'm not sure anyone does. The attorney general is trying to slow the flood of narcotics in but that will drive them to illegal drugs probably. And a lot of that is coming south from Detroit. As we say at work, we can't arrest our way out of the drug problem. I'm not sure what will work. Of course they need more treatment beds but that's expensive and no one wants to pay for that. It's a horrible situation. It's not just treatment beds that are the issue. Addiction can be powerful and even if we had enough treatment beds for every addict it still wouldn't solve the problem. Addicts have to want to get better if they are to kick the addiction. No rehab program is going to work without a commitment from the individual to get better. Furthermore, solving the addiction issue may not necessarily solve what caused the addiction in the first place, physical and/or emotional pain, bad family situations, lack of job prospects, ect.
But I agree that maybe it's time to view drug addiction more as a medical problem than a criminal problem.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:30:21 GMT -5
Who knows? Maybe the need to be high is stronger than the danger of an adulterated drug. Of course heroin junkies can be productive members of society. How many actors manage to put out a good performance while addicted? These are the ones that get the publicity, but how many people were high on coke in the 1990s and were perfectly functional? Heroin is not the same as coke. I know many successful people did coke in the 80s (I don't mean I knew them personally...just that I know it happened). Can we really same the same about heroin? Because I don't think we can. The list of some of those who did heroin. Many died, but some have gone on to be productive members: Many functioned while doing heroin. Jim Morrison Janis Joplin Chris Farley Nicole Richie Robert F. Kennedy Corey Feldman Russell Brand Philip Seymour Hoffman Courtney Love Robert Downey Jr. Steven Tyler Angelina Jolie River Phoenix Jimi Hendrix Eric Clapton Samuel L. Jackson John Belushi Kurt Cobain Billie Holliday
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 8, 2017 12:31:33 GMT -5
Sigmund Freud took cocaine, it was used as an antidepressant back in the 1800s'. If you think about it that explains a lot when it comes to some of his theories. What, you mean penis envy isn't a real thing?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 12:33:13 GMT -5
Heroin is not the same as coke. I know many successful people did coke in the 80s (I don't mean I knew them personally...just that I know it happened). Can we really same the same about heroin? Because I don't think we can. The list of some of those who did heroin. Many died, but some have gone on to be productive members: Many functioned while doing heroin. Jim Morrison Janis Joplin Chris Farley Nicole Richie Robert F. Kennedy Corey Feldman Russell Brand Philip Seymour Hoffman Courtney Love Robert Downey Jr. Steven Tyler Angelina Jolie River Phoenix Jimi Hendrix Eric Clapton Samuel L. Jackson John Belushi Kurt Cobain Billie Holliday lol...you lost me at the "many died"....I seriously can't believe anyone on here is arguing that heroin isn't bad. Would any of you recommend that your children take heroin because it is no worse than a glass of wine? This entire conversation is boggling my mind.
I have done stupid things in my life. I have probably driven when I shouldn't have. The fact that I'm alive doesn't mean that drunk driving is safe. It means that I got lucky. I sure as hell am not telling my kid that driving drunk is ok...and here is a list of people that have done it and only some of them died.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:34:43 GMT -5
I think one problem that needs to be addressed is that doctors prescribing narcotics need to think about and plan for the physical withdrawals that occur with prescription narcotics use. Even if used responsibly for a short time there will be a physical reaction (often uncomfortable) to discontinuing use of a narcotic. This has nothing to do with a mental addiction, which I would classify as self medicating, psychological issues, and stress type reactions.Not everyone responds the same way to narcotics and has withdrawal symptoms. If I took a rough poll from my hip group, very few wind up with withdrawal symptoms after hip surgery and usually this is after a couple week prescription, I doubt if it is as high as 5%. Most of the people who do are those who have issues with alcohol, which is similar to what is found in the literature. FWIW....I was on them for damn near a year and didn't have a single withdrawal symptom. Of course there are going to be differences in how people react to the drugs in their systems. But the fact that there are common side effects and that people take them to alter (even for a short time) their physiology means that there is some physical changes that occur when taking them. In other words I'm not necessarily talking DTs or full blown withdrawal, I'm talking everything from sleep disruption, constipation/diarrhea, and even tolerance building. That's why I think people get all up in arms unnecessarily when someone mentions withdrawal. "I'm not hooked" is the usual refrain, because they're not separating the physical dependency on the mental or emotional dependency, which are two very different things. But that's not withdrawal. Those are side effects of the drug, just like getting a yeast infection after a course of antibiotics or massive diarrhea. Usually when you get a course of narcotics, doctors do address these symptoms (especially the constipation, because I have always gotten a prescription for this along with the narcotics). Tolerance is a whole 'nuther issue, and it usually depends upon whether or not you are opiate naive or not.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:36:18 GMT -5
The list of some of those who did heroin. Many died, but some have gone on to be productive members: Many functioned while doing heroin. Jim Morrison Janis Joplin Chris Farley Nicole Richie Robert F. Kennedy Corey Feldman Russell Brand Philip Seymour Hoffman Courtney Love Robert Downey Jr. Steven Tyler Angelina Jolie River Phoenix Jimi Hendrix Eric Clapton Samuel L. Jackson John Belushi Kurt Cobain Billie Holliday lol...you lost me at the "many died"....I seriously can't believe anyone on here is arguing that heroin isn't bad. Would any of you recommend that your children take heroin because it is no worse than a glass of wine? This entire conversation is boggling my mind.
I have done stupid things in my life. I have probably driven when I shouldn't have. The fact that I'm alive doesn't mean that drunk driving is safe. It means that I got lucky. I sure as hell am not telling my kid that driving drunk is ok...and here is a list of people that have done it and only some of them died.
My point was that they were able to function on the drug. That was what you asked. In fact, many kept it so well hidden that the first time anyone knew that they used was when they died.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 8, 2017 12:37:27 GMT -5
Around here, many of the people being arrested for/overdosing on heroin do have chronic pain; they turned to heroin when it became easier and cheaper than rx opiates. Which makes the "die, scum" comments on every news story about the police using Narcan to revive someone all the more depressing. DH has major orthopedic issues and I give thanks at least once a day that he never became addicted to any of the heavy-duty drugs he was prescribed. It would have been easy and they really were giving them out like candy until a couple of years ago. BBC podcasts have covered opioid addiction in the US (generally starting with prescription pain relievers for post-op pain, back pain or something else legitimate, leading to addiction. leading to heroin because it's cheaper and easier to get). Really sad- Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, etc. were sold as non-addictive. I've seen both extremes of availability: 3 years ago I had dental implants placed and the oral surgeon gave me a prescription for 25 Hydrocodone- with one refill available. One Tylenol relieved the pain and I tore up the prescriptions. Last July, though, DH fell and had compression fractures of a couple of vertebrae. It was hell to get that prescription- had to go to the doc's office, then wait while they got someone to write it (couldn't do it before we got there, of course), wait till it got filled- and they gave him 120. He got surgery a week later and may have used about 10 of them total- he hated the side effects. After he died I found 4 bottles of Oxycodone, Hyrodcodone, etc. from every time his back acted up and he'd take maybe 3 or 4. Fortunately the last bottle was unexpired so I could donate it to a medical mission to Haiti our church was sponsoring. I can deduct the street value of those for tax purposes, right? I feel pretty fortunate that I don't have any chronic pain. I can only imagine what it's like to constantly have chronic back, knee, hip, ect pain that never goes away. I can see how sooner or later, it just wears your down and you'd do anything just to feel pain free, even if it's only temporary.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:37:56 GMT -5
lol...you lost me at the "many died"....I seriously can't believe anyone on here is arguing that heroin isn't bad. Would any of you recommend that your children take heroin because it is no worse than a glass of wine? This entire conversation is boggling my mind.
I have done stupid things in my life. I have probably driven when I shouldn't have. The fact that I'm alive doesn't mean that drunk driving is safe. It means that I got lucky. I sure as hell am not telling my kid that driving drunk is ok...and here is a list of people that have done it and only some of them died.
Not to mention as entertainers these folks generally don't have the same day to day lives as the rest of us. If Angelina Jolie is stoned and misses a few lines that much different than a doctor, electrician, or anyone else being stoned on the job. They are not subject to random drug tests, like many are either.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 12:39:02 GMT -5
lol...you lost me at the "many died"....I seriously can't believe anyone on here is arguing that heroin isn't bad. Would any of you recommend that your children take heroin because it is no worse than a glass of wine? This entire conversation is boggling my mind.
I have done stupid things in my life. I have probably driven when I shouldn't have. The fact that I'm alive doesn't mean that drunk driving is safe. It means that I got lucky. I sure as hell am not telling my kid that driving drunk is ok...and here is a list of people that have done it and only some of them died.
My point was that they were able to function on the drug. That was what you asked. In fact, many kept it so well hidden that the first time anyone knew that they used was when they died. Yes...heroin didn't kill them until it did. Great selling point.
I would be more interested in seeing how many "real" people can function well on heroin.
and I realize I did ask the question...but I am more shocked by some of the comments in here defending heroin...making it sound like it isn't that bad to take. I don't understand it.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 12:46:14 GMT -5
My point was that they were able to function on the drug. That was what you asked. In fact, many kept it so well hidden that the first time anyone knew that they used was when they died. Yes...heroin didn't kill them until it did. Great selling point.
I would be more interested in seeing how many "real" people can function well on heroin.
and I realize I did ask the question...but I am more shocked by some of the comments in here defending heroin...making it sound like it isn't that bad to take. I don't understand it.
You are never going to find that out because those people don't make the news. Who is defending heroin? I don't consider the idea that someone can function on heroin (until they die) defending it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 8, 2017 12:59:50 GMT -5
There is A LOT of money in the pain pill industry. I'm always having people come up to me and claim that Big Pharma has the cure for cancer but is deliberately keeping it hidden because they make more money off of people being sick. Where is the same outcry over pain pills? I do think they are a very useful tool and should not be banned but we've done a major disservice to A LOT of people getting them dependent on them to manage their issues then deciding "nope you can't have any more cause you may end up addicted". Well no shit sherlock.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Mar 8, 2017 13:03:55 GMT -5
Yes...heroin didn't kill them until it did. Great selling point.
I would be more interested in seeing how many "real" people can function well on heroin.
and I realize I did ask the question...but I am more shocked by some of the comments in here defending heroin...making it sound like it isn't that bad to take. I don't understand it.
You are never going to find that out because those people don't make the news. Who is defending heroin? I don't consider the idea that someone can function on heroin (until they die) defending it. No one is defending heroin, unless my pointing out that alcohol is a socially acceptable addictive drug is somehow defending heroin. Miss T went on about how there is no reason for anyone to use drugs, and I merely pointed out that most of us do imbibe in a legal drug.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:04:49 GMT -5
There is A LOT of money in the pain pill industry. I'm always having people come up to me and claim that Big Pharma has the cure for cancer but is deliberately keeping it hidden because they make more money off of people being sick. Where is the same outcry over pain pills? I do think they are a very useful tool and should not be banned but we've done a major disservice to A LOT of people getting them dependent on them to manage their issues then deciding "nope you can't have any more cause you may end up addicted". Well no shit sherlock. But where is the line? I ask that because my cousin did wind up addicted to Oxy. It got to the point where his pain was gone but he still wanted the pills (or at least his pain didn't need oxy). On one hand we are saying it is the fault of doctors for prescribing all of this medicine, but then we are saying we should keep handing them out. Which is it?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:09:11 GMT -5
You are never going to find that out because those people don't make the news. Who is defending heroin? I don't consider the idea that someone can function on heroin (until they die) defending it. No one is defending heroin, unless my pointing out that alcohol is a socially acceptable addictive drug is somehow defending heroin. Miss T went on about how there is no reason for anyone to use drugs, and I merely pointed out that most of us do imbibe in a legal drug. And if alcohol caused the devastation that heroin does, I would say it was stupid to drink alcohol. But it doesn't. There are alcoholic but the number of people who get addicted to alcohol is a fraction of the people that get addicted to heroin. People get addicted to all kinds of thing...gambling, sex, etc. That doesn't mean it isn't stupid to take heroin.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 13:13:27 GMT -5
There is A LOT of money in the pain pill industry. I'm always having people come up to me and claim that Big Pharma has the cure for cancer but is deliberately keeping it hidden because they make more money off of people being sick. Where is the same outcry over pain pills? I do think they are a very useful tool and should not be banned but we've done a major disservice to A LOT of people getting them dependent on them to manage their issues then deciding "nope you can't have any more cause you may end up addicted". Well no shit sherlock. But where is the line? I ask that because my cousin did wind up addicted to Oxy. It got to the point where his pain was gone but he still wanted the pills (or at least his pain didn't need oxy). On one hand we are saying it is the fault of doctors for prescribing all of this medicine, but then we are saying we should keep handing them out. Which is it? The problem is that each person does not respond the same way to drugs. So the way I'm reading this is that you do not advocate giving sufficient pain relief for someone in pain because they might become addicted and might abuse drugs. That is already happening and those need the drug are being treated as an automatic addict because some like your cousin abused the drug. Nothing like painting everyone with the same brush. Hell, when I was in the hospital at the beginning of my infection, I was accused by a nurse of being an addict. Why? Because my meds were so tightly titrated to my pain that when they came 90 minutes late after I called for my pain meds, I needed a morphine rescue dose. Had they delivered my meds when I asked for them, I'd have been ok. But this nurse thought that I was an addict and just wanted the morphine bolus too.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 8, 2017 13:13:55 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:17:19 GMT -5
As a percentage of people who use alcohol or just in general? Because 75% of adults drink while a much smaller % do heroin. So I would hope to god a higher number of people die from alcohol!
ETA: The page can't be displayed so I can't read the article.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 8, 2017 13:19:07 GMT -5
As a percentage of people who use alcohol or just in general? Because 75% of adults drink while a much smaller % do heroin. So I would hope to god a higher number of people die from alcohol!
I didn't break it down by percentage, but only absolulte numbers.
I agree there should be more people dying from alcohol because it's legal, widespread, and socially acceptable, celebrated even. But we need to recognize alcohol causes damage too. There are some people who just cannot drink at all, but it's probably the same people who can't dabble in drugs.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 8, 2017 13:20:49 GMT -5
No one is defending heroin, unless my pointing out that alcohol is a socially acceptable addictive drug is somehow defending heroin. Miss T went on about how there is no reason for anyone to use drugs, and I merely pointed out that most of us do imbibe in a legal drug. And if alcohol caused the devastation that heroin does, I would say it was stupid to drink alcohol. But it doesn't. There are alcoholic but the number of people who get addicted to alcohol is a fraction of the people that get addicted to heroin. People get addicted to all kinds of thing...gambling, sex, etc. That doesn't mean it isn't stupid to take heroin. You don't think that alcohol doesn't cause devastation? Seriously? How do you explain the 28 deaths/day (or 10,220/year) caused by drunk drivers? There are roughly 12,000 heroin overdose deaths/year (in 2015). The difference is that the heroin addict isn't getting into a car and devastating someone else. He's 'just' killing himself.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:23:30 GMT -5
As a percentage of people who use alcohol or just in general? Because 75% of adults drink while a much smaller % do heroin. So I would hope to god a higher number of people die from alcohol!
I didn't break it down by percentage, but only absolulte numbers.
I agree there should be more people dying from alcohol because it's legal, widespread, and socially acceptable, celebrated even. But we need to recognize alcohol causes damage too. There are some people who just cannot drink at all, but it's probably the same people who can't dabble in drugs.
I never said alcohol couldn't be bad. Hell, anything in excess is bad for you. Obese people kill themselves by eating too much! But that doesn't take away from the dangers of heroin. I don't have time to research right now (I am trying desperately to work!) but I would have to believe that a heroin addicts life span is a hell of a lot shorter than a fat person or an alcoholic.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:26:58 GMT -5
And if alcohol caused the devastation that heroin does, I would say it was stupid to drink alcohol. But it doesn't. There are alcoholic but the number of people who get addicted to alcohol is a fraction of the people that get addicted to heroin. People get addicted to all kinds of thing...gambling, sex, etc. That doesn't mean it isn't stupid to take heroin. You don't think that alcohol doesn't cause devastation? Seriously? How do you explain the 28 deaths/day (or 10,220/year) caused by drunk drivers? There are roughly 12,000 heroin overdose deaths/year (in 2015). The difference is that the heroin addict isn't getting into a car and devastating someone else. He's 'just' killing himself. I never said that alcohol didn't cause any devastation. There are people that drive drunk, drive high, drive too fast, drive exhausted, and kill people each day. Alcohol is not making people drive and kill people. Stupid people are doing that. My point was that an alcoholic sitting home and not being an asshat and driving (because that is a separate issue) has a much, much less chance of dying that night than someone shooting up heroin.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 8, 2017 13:30:02 GMT -5
So there weren't overdoses in the 70s? Of course there were. And of course there are new cocktails in the mix now than there were before. Drugs fall in and out of popularity, but that doesn't mean that cycles aren't still there. I "grew up" in the 70's, and saw a lot of what went on then first hand. Heroin was around, and some people did heroin, but it was absolutely nothing like what is happening right now. First of all, most people didn't use it. Some really, really cool and really successful people used it, and losers used it. Average people mostly stayed the hell away from it. It was a time of rampant and carefree drug use, and while (unfortunately for me) love was maybe not quite so "free" as it was rumored to be in the '60's, it was still a pretty loose time. I and my friends certainly experimented with a lot of different, "ahem", substances. However I never used heroin, and never shot anything into my arm. I mean, that was just a bridge one did not cross. Because everybody knew that junkies were waste products and died. What happened to that thought?that's what I don't understand. I seem to be the outlier in this thread...thinking that heroin is really bad and we should stay away from it. I don't understand it!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 8, 2017 13:31:16 GMT -5
I "grew up" in the 70's, and saw a lot of what went on then first hand. Heroin was around, and some people did heroin, but it was absolutely nothing like what is happening right now. First of all, most people didn't use it. Some really, really cool and really successful people used it, and losers used it. Average people mostly stayed the hell away from it. It was a time of rampant and carefree drug use, and while (unfortunately for me) love was maybe not quite so "free" as it was rumored to be in the '60's, it was still a pretty loose time. I and my friends certainly experimented with a lot of different, "ahem", substances. However I never used heroin, and never shot anything into my arm. I mean, that was just a bridge one did not cross. Because everybody knew that junkies were waste products and died. What happened to that thought?that's what I don't understand. I seem to be the outlier in this thread...thinking that heroin is really bad and we should stay away from it. I don't understand it! I think it's really bad too, but apparently not everyone agrees.
But telling kids that one dose and you're hooked is not true and doesn't seem to be helping.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Mar 8, 2017 13:35:23 GMT -5
Just over a year ago my daughter had her tonsils removed. My husband picked up her painkiller prescription and came home with a bottle of liquid hydrocodone that was slightly larger than 'a fifth of whisky'. My DD was 3 and weighed 30lbs.
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