Helping the Poor, Disabled, Elderly

[giramomma]

So...I've been thinking alot about this lately.

Who's in the best position to help the poor/elderly/disabled?

Is this a societal issue? Or an individual issue, one that should be taken care of in the home?

It seems to me that having government help the poor/elderly/disabled isn't working.

But, handling these issues like they used to do prior to more gov't support sounds like it won't work in modern times.

Most families can't go down to one income, so that one spouse can take care of grandma, a sister with MS, plus their own kids. It also seems like we live in an age where one must move to where the jobs are...which makes it difficult to support multi-generational families.

Churches/religions compel us to help out one another...but church attendance isn't a regular thing for many of us.

We know that non profits are also not always good at efficiently providing services to help others.

So, what's the solution?

If possible, I'd like to keep politics, personal beliefs about those getting gov't assistance out of here..because the solution needs to transcend all of that sort of thing, anyway.

[Phoenix84]

I think that organizations run more efficiently the more locally they're run.

I guess ideally it'd be a combination of family and local non profits, churches, and governments. But in reality, as you said, no one "group" is working well on it's own, or together for that matter.

Basically, you're asking what is the solution to poverty, which humanity hasn't been able to come up with yet.

[Gardening Grandma]

The number of women living in poverty fell dramatically after SS was revised to provide benefits for widows based on their spouses earnings.

Actually the SS program has worked rather well in that it provides a floor for the elderly & disabled.

[NastyWoman]

Mar 7, 2017 12:27:34 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think that organizations run more efficiently the more locally they're run.

I guess ideally it'd be a combination of family and local non profits, churches, and governments. But in reality, as you said, no one "group" is working well on it's own, or together for that matter.

Basically, you're asking what is the solution to poverty, which humanity hasn't been able to come up with yet.

But who provides funding? Local funding might be fine if there is enough wealth to be shared in a community and there are enough people willing to share that wealth. But what about whole regions that live in poverty or whole societies that feel that supporting the arts (a very admirable and worthy issue to support IMO) is more important than feeding the hungry?  Or the societies where, if you are not religious enough or of the "right" religion, they won't support that person in need?

Local might sound good in principle but I am not so sure it will work the best for those in need.

[Phoenix84]

Mar 7, 2017 12:37:17 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Mar 7, 2017 12:27:34 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I think that organizations run more efficiently the more locally they're run.

I guess ideally it'd be a combination of family and local non profits, churches, and governments. But in reality, as you said, no one "group" is working well on it's own, or together for that matter.

Basically, you're asking what is the solution to poverty, which humanity hasn't been able to come up with yet.

But who provides funding? Local funding might be fine if there is enough wealth to be shared in a community and there are enough people willing to share that welth. But what about whole regions that live in poverty or whole societies that feel that supporting the arts (a very admirable and worthy issue to support IMO) is more important than feeding the hungry?  Or the societies where, if you are not religious enough or of the "right" religion, they won't support that person in need?

Local might sound good in principle but I am not so sure it will work the best for those in need.

And bloated, inefficient, government bureaucracies that cost hundreds of billions of dollars a year are better? 

[Phoenix84]

Mar 7, 2017 12:37:09 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

The number of women living in poverty fell dramatically after SS was revised to provide benefits for widows based on their spouses earnings.

Actually the SS program has worked rather well in that it provides a floor for the elderly & disabled.

But now days, with most women having careers, is that still the case? Meaning that women need SS to survive in old age?

[naughtybear]

I was thinking about this yesterday as I was talking to mum. I'm still thinking.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 7, 2017 12:43:49 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Mar 7, 2017 12:37:09 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

The number of women living in poverty fell dramatically after SS was revised to provide benefits for widows based on their spouses earnings.

Actually the SS program has worked rather well in that it provides a floor for the elderly & disabled.

But now days, with most women having careers, is that still the case? Meaning that women need SS to survive in old age?

It depends upon their salary.  For women, their SS is usually less than men's due to that they have generally accepted lower paying positions.  So a woman can have a decent career, but it may be more beneficial to draw on her husband's record.  For me, my SS is more than what what I'd draw on my husband's record, but not by much.

[tskeeter]

Mar 7, 2017 12:02:14 GMT -5 giramomma said:

So...I've been thinking alot about this lately.

Who's in the best position to help the poor/elderly/disabled?

Is this a societal issue? Or an individual issue, one that should be taken care of in the home?

It seems to me that having government help the poor/elderly/disabled isn't working.

But, handling these issues like they used to do prior to more gov't support sounds like it won't work in modern times.

Most families can't go down to one income, so that one spouse can take care of grandma, a sister with MS, plus their own kids. It also seems like we live in an age where one must move to where the jobs are...which makes it difficult to support multi-generational families.

Churches/religions compel us to help out one another...but church attendance isn't a regular thing for many of us.

We know that non profits are also not always good at efficiently providing services to help others.

So, what's the solution?

If possible, I'd like to keep politics, personal beliefs about those getting gov't assistance out of here..because the solution needs to transcend all of that sort of thing, anyway.

Challenging question.  Opens up a bunch of other questions.  Are we obliged to provide for those who choose not to provide for themselves?  How about their children?  How do we distinguish between those not able to provide for themselves and those who choose not to provide for themselves?  How about those who could have saved for retirement, but bought fancy cars, boats, motorcycles, cabins, and the like?  Am I obligated to provide them a retirement comparable to the one I will enjoy after decades of saving and investing?

I think we can look backward to find social programs that I think worked better than what we do today.  During the Great Depression, the federal government stepped in to limit the damage to families of the unemployed.  But, the Roosevelt administration didn't hand out money, food, housing, and medical care.  Roosevelt created jobs programs.  So that those who chose to work could provide some support for their families.  In return for their investment, the US taxpayers got Hoover Dam, Telemark Lodge, and thousands of other improvements that still benefit the public 80 years later.  Folks who worked on those types of projects took pride in their contributions.  I remember the comments of a coworker during a grouse hunting trip many years ago.  He pointed at a small lake and told me "my Dad stocked that lake with fingerling  trout when he was in the CCC.  They hauled cream cans on their backs and probably hiked into the lake on this same trail".  Now, humping a can filled with about 80 pounds of fish and water five or six miles into the woods on hilly terrain was hard work.  Even for the young men in the CCC.  But the pay they earned helped to support their families.  And the projects they worked were such a source of pride that they told their kids about what they had done.  I don't think that a lot of folks are going to be telling their kids "yeah, I collected unemployment for 99 weeks during the recession of 2009".  How much better to tell about helping to build the sea wall that protects the local small boat harbor, while working on WPA projects.

[Shooby]

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

I hear this all the time, but it makes no sense to me because many of the people I know with drug issues are very religious.  All three of my brothers my sister and myself are agnostic/atheist and only one is kind of a pessimistic downer, but even with that he's a health/exercise nut.  I think the hope/drive/motivation thing comes from within. 

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2017 13:59:35 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

I hear this all the time, but it makes no sense to me because many of the people I know with drug issues are very religious.  All three of my brothers my sister and myself are agnostic/atheist and only one is kind of a pessimistic downer, but even with that he's a health/exercise nut.  I think the hope/drive/motivation thing comes from within. 

[Shooby]

Mar 7, 2017 13:59:35 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

I hear this all the time, but it makes no sense to me because many of the people I know with drug issues are very religious.  All three of my brothers my sister and myself are agnostic/atheist and only one is kind of a pessimistic downer, but even with that he's a health/exercise nut.  I think the hope/drive/motivation thing comes from within. 

It's one of many points.  I am not saying that if you go to church you will cease being an addict.  I am saying there is a lot of Hopelessness in society at large.
  I absolutely agree, there is a big loss of internal motivation as well.  People don't feel responsible for their own successes or failures and have to find someone to blame.  I completely agree.

[emma1420]

I think this has to be a societal issue paid for by the tax payer.  The same way that we provide a free public education to all children and it's paid for by people who have children and those who don't. 

Although I do wish that there were more programs (be they government or private) that really focused on helping people who are aging to stay in their own homes, because i think that keeps costs down, and generally I think people are happier in their own home than in an institution.  But, I know I am single, and I could very easily run out of money if I live long enough (my grandmother is in her mid-90's and ran out of money about 5 years ago and is completely dependent on social security and medicaid), and if society doesn't take care of me I will be out on the streets.

We can't have people dying out on the streets.  It's inhumane.  And we can't rely on charities because too many people get left behind.  So all we have are government programs. It's not ideal, but I have no idea what the other feasible options there are.

[Gardening Grandma]

Mar 7, 2017 12:43:49 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Mar 7, 2017 12:37:09 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

The number of women living in poverty fell dramatically after SS was revised to provide benefits for widows based on their spouses earnings.

Actually the SS program has worked rather well in that it provides a floor for the elderly & disabled.

But now days, with most women having careers, is that still the case? Meaning that women need SS to survive in old age?

Well most women still earn less than men.

I don't understand your question.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Although I do wish that there were more programs (be they government or private) that really focused on helping people who are aging to stay in their own homes, because i think that keeps costs down, and generally I think people are happier in their own home than in an institution.

I disagree with this.....somewhat.  My MIL is 80, and she recently downsized from her 2800 sq ft home to a 900 sq ft condo.  She did this while she could still make decisions as to what was important to her.  Right now, the condo provides everything she needs and is as h/c accessible as she could possibly get.  She now no longer has to pay mega $$ for someone to come in and help her clean or do yard work.  She now no longer has the responsibility of making sure that her roof isn't falling down around her ears.

She could have easily afforded to stay in her home, and it was very h/c accessible too (she installed an elevator in it when her husband lost his legs).  But having her continuing to live and maintain her 30 year home was definitely stressing her out.  

TD and I have discussed what happens after upkeep of our house becomes beyond our capabilities.  Friends of our's have moved into a >55 community apartment, but that appeals to neither of us.  However, there are some condo communities that look interesting and might be the way to go.  

[giramomma]

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

Right. But what about the disabled/addiction due to biology?

Divorce and single motherhood has no bearing on whether your child is healthy or special needs. A wife of my co-worker has MS, and it's really ramped up on her over the past 4-5 years. They've been married for likely 40 or so years now. Two kids. White picket fence, the whole 9 yards.

The breakdown of the family has no bearing on mental illness/biology of addiction, too. Right?

I was hoping for solutions that would help everyone...

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 7, 2017 14:47:10 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

Right. But what about the disabled/addiction due to biology?

Divorce and single motherhood has no bearing on whether your child is healthy or special needs. A wife of my co-worker has MS, and it's really ramped up on her over the past 4-5 years. They've been married for likely 40 or so years now. Two kids. White picket fence, the whole 9 yards.

The breakdown of the family has no bearing on mental illness/biology of addiction, too. Right?

I was hoping for solutions that would help everyone...

And to piggyback on what Gira says, I can't begin to count the number of people who have had marriages fail when their spouses were faced with disability.  The disabled person has absolutely no control over this, and yet it seems like 'in sickness and in health' only works as long as dinner still winds up on the table.  It is heartbreaking to watch.  

You really have no idea as to how stable a marriage is until it is hit by some sort of major medical issue where one person is no longer capable of carrying 100% of their own weight. 

[giramomma]

Mar 7, 2017 14:14:32 GMT -5 emma1420 said:

I think this has to be a societal issue paid for by the tax payer.  The same way that we provide a free public education to all children and it's paid for by people who have children and those who don't. 

I get what you are trying to say about public education. What about quality? Does quality matter? In my city, the quality of education really depends on how expensive of a house you can afford.

[Shooby]

Mar 7, 2017 14:47:10 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Mar 7, 2017 13:38:35 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  It's a multifauceted issue.  The breakdown of the family is a biggie.  Rampant divorce puts a lot of women and children into poverty.  It's a vicious cycle.    Good jobs are few.  Lots of service oriented low wage jobs that don't put food on the table so even if you worked that full time or 7 days a week, you could barely get by.   I fail to see how flooding the country with more people will help that situation. 
   People have a lot of hopelessness.  Religion is not important to many people now.  They don't have a sense of hope of something bigger than themselves.  As a result, a lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol with further worsens their lives.

Right. But what about the disabled/addiction due to biology?

Divorce and single motherhood has no bearing on whether your child is healthy or special needs. A wife of my co-worker has MS, and it's really ramped up on her over the past 4-5 years. They've been married for likely 40 or so years now. Two kids. White picket fence, the whole 9 yards.

The breakdown of the family has no bearing on mental illness/biology of addiction, too. Right?

I was hoping for solutions that would help everyone...

If you don't want opinions other than your own, then why ask for them?  As for my points, you asked about POOR, elderly, disabled.  The breakup of the family has left many people poor.  And, if you are disabled on top of that, so much more so.  Lots of young people from broken homes have turned to drugs and alcohol.  So.......that's my opinion.  Unless you wish to write it for me.

[Shooby]

Sorry but i don't subscribe to the opinion that writing checks somehow makes everyone's life better.  Just saying.

[swamp]

I believe in the societal safety net. We live in one of the richest countries in the world, there is no excuse for someone to have to go hungry, especially children. If a drug addict chooses to trade their food stamps for drugs, I don't really care, but don't take it out on the kids.    I happily pay for school lunch and breakfast programs, support "school backback" programs, and allowing schools to serve as nutrition centers during school breaks.  

Using charities to provide assistance seems to be spottier in coverage, and there are often strings tied to the help, such as the Salvation Army. 

[Peace Of Mind]

Mar 7, 2017 15:06:38 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry but i don't subscribe to the opinion that writing checks somehow makes everyone's life better.  Just saying.

Feel free to turn your social security check down when your time comes to retire.  

[swamp]

As far as the disabled, the care can be so expensive that a family cannot afford to care for their child.     

[Shooby]

Mar 7, 2017 15:10:28 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:06:38 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Sorry but i don't subscribe to the opinion that writing checks somehow makes everyone's life better.  Just saying.

Feel free to turn your social security check down when your time comes to retire.  

Social Security is not an entitlement.  Perhaps educate yourself?

[naughtybear]

That's not what she meant POM.

I don't feel I should be surprised at how people go from A to 10 here, but I am still. Shame on me.

[weltschmerz]

We have local CLSCs in every neighbourhood.

CLSCs (Centre Local de Services Communautaires, local community service centre) in Quebec are free clinics which are run and maintained by the provincial government.

If you're poor, sick/disabled, they can provide people with the appropriate services.  It works pretty well. They have clinics, home care, social workers, help for families, etc.
If they can't help, they'll find the organisation that will.

[swamp]

Mar 7, 2017 15:14:49 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Mar 7, 2017 15:10:28 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Feel free to turn your social security check down when your time comes to retire.  

Social Security is not an entitlement.  Perhaps educate yourself?

For some it can be. 

Medicare is almost always an entitlement.

money.cnn.com/2013/04/14/news/economy/social-security-benefits/

[Shooby]

  Some people CHOOSE to be poor as well.  I have seen my share of people piss away their money, then cry poor.  Boo hoo.  They don't save anything for a rainy day and then expect to get into our pockets.

[swamp]

29 posts to blame the poor for their place in life. You're slipping, YM.