AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2017 22:58:02 GMT -5
And we will always need people at the top of the bell curve to work for us.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 19, 2017 23:02:28 GMT -5
1. You aren't a tree. Move. 2. Everyone can, and in fact some people MUST move. 3. Want? What the hell is that? Some wise old philosophers once sang a song about this. 4. A "Basic Income" doesn't work. It subsidizes sloth. It sounds good, but in practice it is unworkable. 5. If money just ain't your bag man- then perhaps eating and sleeping in the climate controlled indoors are also not your "thing".
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formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 20, 2017 9:04:54 GMT -5
Just curious, does anybody here really think that saving for retirement is the best use of extra money for someone who is trying to support themselves on minimum wage? I would think saving for some kind of training for a better job or saving to relocate to a place with more opportunity would be a better use of the money. I think we have to face the fact that there will always be people on the left-hand side of the bell curve when it comes to intelligence and ability. There's often talk about people improving themselves but that is not always possible and we no longer live in a society where as long as you are willing to put in a hard day of physical labor than you can provide for yourself and a family. Are we supposed to tell people that are working to the best of their abilities that they shouldn't try and save for retirement or they shouldn't get married or have children? Yes, there are people who are truly disabled. But you don't have to be particularly bright to pick up trash, deliver mail, drive a truck, cut hair or any variety of jobs that pay way more than the minimum wage. I can't tell you how many reasonably intelligent adults I've met who work teenager jobs and how many truly stupid people I've met in the corporate world. Drive and ambition play a lot more of a factor than you're willing to admit. As for children, having kids isn't a constitutional right. Yes, most people want them, just like most people want any number of things they can't afford. Even someone working minimum wage could probably pull it off if they have friends or extended family who are willing to work living with them, but not everyone has decent family or friends who are willing to live with them. But when push comes to shove, if someone doesn't care enough about their future children to get their ducks in a row before having them, I think it's valid to question whether or not that person(s) is fit to raise a child. Paying idiots to breed hasn't served our country well, and it's no accident that upward mobility in this country stalled right about the time we decided to pay train wrecks to have kids.
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MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 12:53:26 GMT -5
I think we have to face the fact that there will always be people on the left-hand side of the bell curve when it comes to intelligence and ability. There's often talk about people improving themselves but that is not always possible and we no longer live in a society where as long as you are willing to put in a hard day of physical labor than you can provide for yourself and a family. Are we supposed to tell people that are working to the best of their abilities that they shouldn't try and save for retirement or they shouldn't get married or have children? Yes, there are people who are truly disabled. But you don't have to be particularly bright to pick up trash, deliver mail, drive a truck, cut hair or any variety of jobs that pay way more than the minimum wage. I can't tell you how many reasonably intelligent adults I've met who work teenager jobs and how many truly stupid people I've met in the corporate world. Drive and ambition play a lot more of a factor than you're willing to admit. As for children, having kids isn't a constitutional right. Yes, most people want them, just like most people want any number of things they can't afford. Even someone working minimum wage could probably pull it off if they have friends or extended family who are willing to work living with them, but not everyone has decent family or friends who are willing to live with them. But when push comes to shove, if someone doesn't care enough about their future children to get their ducks in a row before having them, I think it's valid to question whether or not that person(s) is fit to raise a child. Paying idiots to breed hasn't served our country well, and it's no accident that upward mobility in this country stalled right about the time we decided to pay train wrecks to have kids. I'm willing to wager my paycheck that there are very successful people out there (including ones on this board) who were raised by "idiot" parents. Should they have never been born? To say nothing of the "smart" parents who waited until they were financially prepared and raised worthless individuals. So do you want the hospital to ask you for a W-2 before releasing you with your baby? Or....
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Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
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Post by Tiny on Jan 20, 2017 13:59:39 GMT -5
The bottom line is that if you make the minimum, you don't qualify for a middle class lifestyle. You don't qualify to get married and have kids. You don't qualify for your own home- you barely qualify for roommates. To me, the discussion is kinda silly. You don't need to save and invest if you make minimum wage. You need to earn yourself a raise and/or a promotion. Unfortunately, the idea that you can ALWAYS earn a raise or a promotion doesn't quite match the job market. I don't think it ever has.
Employment possibilities are actually kind of a Pyramid... lots of low wage jobs at the base and then decreasing numbers of jobs/opportunities as you move up the Pyramid to higher pay/benefits. You can't assume that everyone has a 'pre-ordained' higher paying job magically available and waiting for them to fill it. It doesn't work that way. The 'job market' isn't shaped like a square.
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formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 21, 2017 10:22:00 GMT -5
The bottom line is that if you make the minimum, you don't qualify for a middle class lifestyle. You don't qualify to get married and have kids. You don't qualify for your own home- you barely qualify for roommates. To me, the discussion is kinda silly. You don't need to save and invest if you make minimum wage. You need to earn yourself a raise and/or a promotion. Unfortunately, the idea that you can ALWAYS earn a raise or a promotion doesn't quite match the job market. I don't think it ever has.
Employment possibilities are actually kind of a Pyramid... lots of low wage jobs at the base and then decreasing numbers of jobs/opportunities as you move up the Pyramid to higher pay/benefits. You can't assume that everyone has a 'pre-ordained' higher paying job magically available and waiting for them to fill it. It doesn't work that way. The 'job market' isn't shaped like a square.
Yeah, I get your point that there are a lot of low paid jobs. But that doesn't necessarily mean that someone who isn't bright or well connected is doomed to work them for life either. What you're doing at 18 or 22 doesn't determine the rest of your life. People can eventually work their way up the food chain if they give themselves enough time to do it. But if you think you'll spontaneously combust if you don't procreate by age 22, your chances of moving up are greatly diminished, regardless of intelligence or family situation. For example, 3 of my grandparents lost the parent lottery, were pulled out of school by 8th grade and spent their childhoods being tossed around between orphanages and various white trash relatives. As a result, it took them a lot longer to make something of themselves. One of the main reasons why they made it to the middle class is because they were all well into their 30's by the time they had kids. This was not normal at the time. But since they lived in a time when the state didn't subsidize irresponsible procreation, waiting until they could afford children before they had them was considered normal and admirable.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 24, 2017 16:24:01 GMT -5
The bottom line is that if you make the minimum, you don't qualify for a middle class lifestyle. You don't qualify to get married and have kids. You don't qualify for your own home- you barely qualify for roommates. To me, the discussion is kinda silly. You don't need to save and invest if you make minimum wage. You need to earn yourself a raise and/or a promotion. The overriding point, though, is that if you invest even just one hour of minimum wage income each week, you can have a small fortune waiting for you after 30-40 years. Too many people think they can't afford to invest, I'm simply pointing out how little amounts can grow to big gains. It's a fair point. I started following a practice about twelve years ago of having two accounts- a "financial fortress" account (which I now call a "wealth account") and a "giving" account. I started with a small percentage in each. The key is a percentage ( 0% is too small, by the way   . The wealth account- NOTHING leaves it. You can take money out for ONE reason- to invest in another true asset. Otherwise, this money has a check valve. The giving account- do whatever. Overtip, give it to a homeless man, send it to Joel Osteen- whatever, give it away. It will explode your income. It's magical. You have to try it for a couple months and THEN do the math. You can't do the math ahead of time.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 18:36:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 18:32:34 GMT -5
The overriding point, though, is that if you invest even just one hour of minimum wage income each week, you can have a small fortune waiting for you after 30-40 years. Too many people think they can't afford to invest, I'm simply pointing out how little amounts can grow to big gains. It's a fair point. I started following a practice about twelve years ago of having two accounts- a "financial fortress" account (which I now call a "wealth account") and a "giving" account. I started with a small percentage in each. The key is a percentage ( 0% is too small, by the way . The wealth account- NOTHING leaves it. You can take money out for ONE reason- to invest in another true asset. Otherwise, this money has a check valve. The giving account- do whatever. Overtip, give it to a homeless man, send it to Joel Osteen- whatever, give it away. It will explode your income. It's magical. You have to try it for a couple months and THEN do the math. You can't do the math ahead of time. Something similar has worked for DW and I, an everything left is invested account that is strictly managed, and we each have an entertainment account that we spend like drunken sailors.
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formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jan 24, 2017 23:18:06 GMT -5
Yes, there are people who are truly disabled. But you don't have to be particularly bright to pick up trash, deliver mail, drive a truck, cut hair or any variety of jobs that pay way more than the minimum wage. I can't tell you how many reasonably intelligent adults I've met who work teenager jobs and how many truly stupid people I've met in the corporate world. Drive and ambition play a lot more of a factor than you're willing to admit. As for children, having kids isn't a constitutional right. Yes, most people want them, just like most people want any number of things they can't afford. Even someone working minimum wage could probably pull it off if they have friends or extended family who are willing to work living with them, but not everyone has decent family or friends who are willing to live with them. But when push comes to shove, if someone doesn't care enough about their future children to get their ducks in a row before having them, I think it's valid to question whether or not that person(s) is fit to raise a child. Paying idiots to breed hasn't served our country well, and it's no accident that upward mobility in this country stalled right about the time we decided to pay train wrecks to have kids. I'm willing to wager my paycheck that there are very successful people out there (including ones on this board) who were raised by "idiot" parents. Should they have never been born? To say nothing of the "smart" parents who waited until they were financially prepared and raised worthless individuals. So do you want the hospital to ask you for a W-2 before releasing you with your baby? Or.... You just described two of my grandparents. At the time, the state didn't pay the asshats who spawned them to keep them, so their parents didn't keep them and my grandparents got to spend some time being raised by people who actually had their acts together. Because of this, my grandparents weren't programmed to think they were being kept down by 'the man' and knew that they had to do something different if they wanted a better life. Keeping my grandparents away from their parents saved the last 3 generations of my family a lifetime of misery. The branches of my family that didn't get out of poverty before the 1960's are still struggling.
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Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
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Post by Tiny on Jan 24, 2017 23:29:58 GMT -5
The overriding point, though, is that if you invest even just one hour of minimum wage income each week, you can have a small fortune waiting for you after 30-40 years. Too many people think they can't afford to invest, I'm simply pointing out how little amounts can grow to big gains. It's a fair point. I started following a practice about twelve years ago of having two accounts- a "financial fortress" account (which I now call a "wealth account") and a "giving" account. I started with a small percentage in each. The key is a percentage ( 0% is too small, by the way . The wealth account- NOTHING leaves it. You can take money out for ONE reason- to invest in another true asset. Otherwise, this money has a check valve. The giving account- do whatever. Overtip, give it to a homeless man, send it to Joel Osteen- whatever, give it away. It will explode your income. It's magical. You have to try it for a couple months and THEN do the math. You can't do the math ahead of time. You need a third "account" which is your "expenses" - what you spend to maintain your life style. As long as your 3 "accounts" total up to your net pay/income - you are good to go. It's all just variations on the 60/30/10 Budget or the 50/20/30 budget. No magic what so ever...
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