Atheist/Agnostic discussion from "why am I pissed?" thread

[toshmanta]

Dec 17, 2016 18:28:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I realize that this has the potential to be a controversial topic, but I need some different perspective.

I'm not religious, despite having been raised a Catholic.  I don't think I've made the leap to atheist, but agnostic definitely fits.  My sister, OTOH is very much so.  She is no longer Catholic, but has found something she is more comfortable with.  That is her need, and I am ok with this.  We very rarely talk religion.  She knows my stand on it.  The closest we come from is that she will tell me she is praying for God to give her an answer, and my response is usually "it sounds like he has, you are just not listening".  Most of this is in relation to her impending divorce.

So today, I get a book in the mail from her, The Case for Christ with the message that I read it and challenges me to consider the possibilities (her message, verbatim).

Since I opened the box this afternoon, this has pissed me off beyond belief.  I feel like she is trying to push me towards the direction she is in, and I simply don't see it.  Then book is geared towards scientists, but I really don't care.

I don't care that she is religious.  Why can't she respect my beliefs that I just don't see things her way?

Lee Strobel is just another Christian apologist who tries to make a rational case for " The Bible is true because it says it is true ", throw it in the bin or use it to beat some sense into her, you are pissed because it is an insult to intelligence to believe the NT is true.

Hundreds of myths about miracles, all fiction, but not the miracles of Jesus??  Why? Because the Bible is true because it says it is true.

Eugenics should be revisited imho, when will this nonsense ever end.

[weltschmerz]

Dec 17, 2016 20:01:59 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 17, 2016 18:28:13 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I realize that this has the potential to be a controversial topic, but I need some different perspective.

I'm not religious, despite having been raised a Catholic.  I don't think I've made the leap to atheist, but agnostic definitely fits.  My sister, OTOH is very much so.  She is no longer Catholic, but has found something she is more comfortable with.  That is her need, and I am ok with this.  We very rarely talk religion.  She knows my stand on it.  The closest we come from is that she will tell me she is praying for God to give her an answer, and my response is usually "it sounds like he has, you are just not listening".  Most of this is in relation to her impending divorce.

So today, I get a book in the mail from her, The Case for Christ with the message that I read it and challenges me to consider the possibilities (her message, verbatim).

Since I opened the box this afternoon, this has pissed me off beyond belief.  I feel like she is trying to push me towards the direction she is in, and I simply don't see it.  Then book is geared towards scientists, but I really don't care.

I don't care that she is religious.  Why can't she respect my beliefs that I just don't see things her way?

Lee Strobel is just another Christian apologist who tries to make a rational case for " The Bible is true because it says it is true ", throw it in the bin or use it to beat some sense into her, you are pissed because it is an insult to intelligence to believe the NT is true.

Hundreds of myths about miracles, all fiction, but not the miracles of Jesus??  Why? Because the Bible is true because it says it is true.

Eugenics should be revisited imho, when will this nonsense ever end.

Yep! Kind of how Hogwarts is real because the Harry Potter books say it's real.

[toshmanta]

Dec 17, 2016 19:52:52 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I feel as you do.  I consider myself an agnostic and do not appreciate my sister's attempts to convert me.  We did not grow up in a religious home.  If she sent me a book like that, I'd be pissed.

I also plan to be cremated.  My sister thinks it's some kind of sin.  I have now taken the legal steps in my state that she has no control over what becomes of my remains.  I am in the process of prepaying my cremation and my nephew is legally in charge of arrangements.  He has assured me he will follow my wishes. 

He also told me I was right in not appointing his sister because she would cave to her mother.

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 17, 2016 19:52:52 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I feel as you do.  I consider myself an agnostic and do not appreciate my sister's attempts to convert me.  We did not grow up in a religious home.  If she sent me a book like that, I'd be pissed.

I also plan to be cremated.  My sister thinks it's some kind of sin.  I have now taken the legal steps in my state that she has no control over what becomes of my remains.  I am in the process of prepaying my cremation and my nephew is legally in charge of arrangements.  He has assured me he will follow my wishes. 

He also told me I was right in not appointing his sister because she would cave to her mother.

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 17, 2016 19:52:52 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I feel as you do.  I consider myself an agnostic and do not appreciate my sister's attempts to convert me.  We did not grow up in a religious home.  If she sent me a book like that, I'd be pissed.

I also plan to be cremated.  My sister thinks it's some kind of sin.  I have now taken the legal steps in my state that she has no control over what becomes of my remains.  I am in the process of prepaying my cremation and my nephew is legally in charge of arrangements.  He has assured me he will follow my wishes. 

He also told me I was right in not appointing his sister because she would cave to her mother.

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

You consistently conflate the potential existence of a god, with the existence of stories about god(s) ... It's very possible that the stories we tell ourselves, have always told ourselves, are about our own limitations in how to understand and make sense of a higher being. That all of the stories are inaccurate is not a proof that there is no God... just that we have yet to evolve enough to be able to know and explain God as he exists. 

I'd go further than R... agnostic, as I consider myself, don't think God can either be proven definitively true or false... it is unknowable. 

[toshmanta]

Dec 17, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

I think you will find most agnostics are atheists when it comes to Zeus or Thor but sit on the fence when it comes to not believing in God, seemingly they are waiting for proof God does not exist but do not require the same proof for disproving Zeus or Thor.

There are many things an agnostic does not believe without proof,why they make an exception for God is an irrational mystery.

[Deleted]

Dec 18, 2016 6:31:47 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 17, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

I think you will find most agnostics are atheists when it comes to Zeus or Thor but sit on the fence when it comes to not believing in God, seemingly they are waiting for proof God does not exist but do not require the same proof for disproving Zeus or Thor.

There are many things an agnostic does not believe without proof,why they make an exception for God is an irrational mystery.

As an Agnostic myself, I'd have to say you're quite wrong on that assumption.

Every Agnostic I personally know is willing to believe in any God or Gods that have actual proof of their existence... yes, even including Zeus, Odin, Ra, you name 'em.

Proof first. Belief second.

[toshmanta]

Dec 17, 2016 21:25:42 GMT -5 oped said:

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

You consistently conflate the potential existence of a god, with the existence of stories about god(s) ... It's very possible that the stories we tell ourselves, have always told ourselves, are about our own limitations in how to understand and make sense of a higher being. That all of the stories are inaccurate is not a proof that there is no God... just that we have yet to evolve enough to be able to know and explain God as he exists. 

I'd go further than R... agnostic, as I consider myself, don't think God can either be proven definitively true or false... it is unknowable. 

Since there is no evidence to support God's existence other than the stories about God's existence i see no conflation, without evidence or reason the existence of a higher being is only a story and there are many stories of things existing we do not believe despite not knowing or being able to prove if they exist or not.
Are you agnostic about fairies, goblins, unicorns, dragons or leprechauns just because they cannot be proven definitively true or false.

You conflate rationality with empiricism.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 6:37:49 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 18, 2016 6:31:47 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I think you will find most agnostics are atheists when it comes to Zeus or Thor but sit on the fence when it comes to not believing in God, seemingly they are waiting for proof God does not exist but do not require the same proof for disproving Zeus or Thor.

There are many things an agnostic does not believe without proof,why they make an exception for God is an irrational mystery.

As an Agnostic myself, I'd have to say you're quite wrong on that assumption.

Every Agnostic I personally know is willing to believe in any God or Gods that have actual proof of their existence... yes, even including Zeus, Odin, Ra, you name 'em.

Proof first. Belief second.

I am an atheist and i am willing to believe in any god if there is proof, you are missing my point,agnosticism is about withholding belief and DISBELIEF until there is proof either way, all the agnostics i know do not BELIEVE Zeus exists but withhold their disbelief when it comes to God.

[toshmanta]

Dec 17, 2016 21:58:36 GMT -5 lexxy703 said:

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

I do not understand your first paragraph.  I've read it more than once, but as an agnostic I don't really believe in any of the gods.  And I laughed at your last sentence because it basically sums up what I do believe about the bible.  Not to be rude to Christians but I believe it was a lot like the Salem witch trials & they were tripping on ergot or other bad wheat or mushrooms. 

If you do not believe in any gods you are not an agnostic but you are an atheist just like me.

[toshmanta]

I do not KNOW nor can i PROVE T-REX does not still exist but i do not believe it does,rationality is about reasons to believe and there are no reasons to believe T-REX still exists but there are reasons to believe it is extinct.

Now i just apply the same rational process to the supernatural, we do not have to have proof of a negative to form a rational opinion.

God is a story, nothing more, even the case God is unknowable is nothing more than a story and i have no reason to believe this story is true and reasons to believe it is false.

So throw off your agnostic clothes and come out of the closet, you are atheists just like me.

[zibazinski]

Maybe take this to the religious thread? What started out as a vent has turned into bashing of anyone who holds religious beliefs.

[Blonde Granny]

I moved this topic from WIR and debated if it should to to EE or Religion. It appears I made the wrong choice. Therefore, this is being moved to the Religion forum.

BG - Admin

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 7:24:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Maybe take this to the religious thread? What started out as a vent has turned into bashing of anyone who holds religious beliefs.

I was bashing agnostics, they do not have religious beliefs, in my opinion agnostics are worse than theists.

[Gardening Grandma]

Dec 17, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Dec 17, 2016 20:37:08 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I have never understood the case for agnosticism with regard to the existence of God, how can one disregard all the other gods but yet not come to the same conclusion about God,it is not as if there is anymore evidence or reason for God's existence as against all the other gods.

They cannot all be true but they can all be false.

Even if we assume some sentient being outwith the Laws of Physics created our universe, what are the chances he only told one small desert tribe in the Bronze Age about his plans?

The burning bush was probably a cannabis plant, no wonder Moses dropped the tablets.

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

I consider myself an agnostic.  I think there are a lot of things we, as humans, do not understand.  It is human nature to create explanations for those things.  As science progresses, the need for created explanations lessens.  Perhaps that is why many religious folks fear science.  I don't know.

[Gardening Grandma]

Dec 18, 2016 10:43:34 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 18, 2016 7:24:18 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Maybe take this to the religious thread? What started out as a vent has turned into bashing of anyone who holds religious beliefs.

I was bashing agnostics, they do not have religious beliefs, in my opinion agnostics are worse than theists.

Well, imo, an atheist bashing agnostics is just as bad as the religious bashing the heathen.

Personally I lack the arrogance that being atheist would require.

[Shooby]

Dec 18, 2016 12:58:38 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 17, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

I consider myself an agnostic.  I think there are a lot of things we, as humans, do not understand.  It is human nature to create explanations for those things.  As science progresses, the need for created explanations lessens.  Perhaps that is why many religious folks fear science.  I don't know.

Baloney. Let's start the insults.

[weltschmerz]

Dec 18, 2016 13:01:57 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 18, 2016 10:43:34 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I was bashing agnostics, they do not have religious beliefs, in my opinion agnostics are worse than theists.

Well, imo, an atheist bashing agnostics is just as bad as the religious bashing the heathen.

Personally I lack the arrogance that being atheist would require.

Arrogance? How so?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 18, 2016 13:44:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Dec 18, 2016 13:01:57 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Well, imo, an atheist bashing agnostics is just as bad as the religious bashing the heathen.

Personally I lack the arrogance that being atheist would require.

Arrogance? How so?

I think that (IMO.....GG may feel differently) that atheists are as sure they are correct as religious people, while agnostics are willing to consider ALL possibilities.  

[weltschmerz]

I don't accept highly illogical philosophies. If you want me to believe it, I want proof.
If that makes me arrogant, so be it.

[weltschmerz]

It's kind of like me accepting that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror results in bad luck.
No proof of that whatsoever, so I don't believe it.
I guess it's arrogance on my part.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 13:01:57 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 18, 2016 10:43:34 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

I was bashing agnostics, they do not have religious beliefs, in my opinion agnostics are worse than theists.

Well, imo, an atheist bashing agnostics is just as bad as the religious bashing the heathen.

Personally I lack the arrogance that being atheist would require.

I bet you do not believe Zeus or Thor exists>tut...tut, i just apply the same reasoning to all god claims, not being arrogant just consistent.

 

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 13:47:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 18, 2016 13:44:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Arrogance? How so?

I think that (IMO.....GG may feel differently) that atheists are as sure they are correct as religious people, while agnostics are willing to consider ALL possibilities.  

A rational mind requires reasons to consider things are possible,to consider everything is possible is unreasonable.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 12:58:38 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 17, 2016 21:05:59 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Agnosticism isn't a belief in "there is no Christian God... but the other Gods, sure, why not..." Agnosticism is the belief that there's no PROOF of God... ANY God. Agnostics believe in the provable. Prove it and we'll believe it.

I consider myself an agnostic.  I think there are a lot of things we, as humans, do not understand.  It is human nature to create explanations for those things.  As science progresses, the need for created explanations lessens.  Perhaps that is why many religious folks fear science.  I don't know.

I agree there are indeed lots of things we do not understand, see no reason why any unsupported explanation should be considered as a possible explanation.

God is an empty hypothesis, it is empty of content,  the universe being created by aliens from another dimension is just as valid.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 13:53:17 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It's kind of like me accepting that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror results in bad luck.
No proof of that whatsoever, so I don't believe it.
I guess it's arrogance on my part.

In the 19th century the majority believed in fairies, i am certain fairies do not exist, not arrogance just intelligence.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 15:39:30 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Dec 18, 2016 12:58:38 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

I consider myself an agnostic.  I think there are a lot of things we, as humans, do not understand.  It is human nature to create explanations for those things.  As science progresses, the need for created explanations lessens.  Perhaps that is why many religious folks fear science.  I don't know.

I agree there are indeed lots of things we do not understand, see no reason why any unsupported hypothesis should be considered as a possible explanation.

God is an empty hypothesis, it is empty of content,  the universe being created by aliens from another dimension is just as valid.

[Gardening Grandma]

Dec 18, 2016 13:44:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Dec 18, 2016 13:01:57 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Well, imo, an atheist bashing agnostics is just as bad as the religious bashing the heathen.

Personally I lack the arrogance that being atheist would require.

Arrogance? How so?

"Arrogance" was probably the wrong choice of words.  I think I should have said "assurance".  It's just that sometimes, atheists strike me as just as certain as the religious.

[Gardening Grandma]

Dec 18, 2016 13:53:17 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It's kind of like me accepting that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror results in bad luck.
No proof of that whatsoever, so I don't believe it.
I guess it's arrogance on my part.

weltschmerz,
I apologize.  

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 16:55:56 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 18, 2016 13:44:52 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Arrogance? How so?

"Arrogance" was probably the wrong choice of words.  I think I should have said "assurance".  It's just that sometimes, atheists strike me as just as certain as the religious.

I don't think certainty comes into it, some claim the supernatural exists and i see no reason to believe them, i would quite happily change my mind if there was evidence or a reason to believe. 

However the religious no matter what will never change their beliefs, they are certain.

[toshmanta]

Dec 18, 2016 16:58:20 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Dec 18, 2016 13:53:17 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It's kind of like me accepting that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror results in bad luck.
No proof of that whatsoever, so I don't believe it.
I guess it's arrogance on my part.

weltschmerz,
I apologize.  

I am arrogant, so no need to apologise to me.