alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Nov 27, 2016 20:29:31 GMT -5
I'm just thinking more about how weird it is that this hadn't been an issue in schools yet, especially high schools. I think our local schools are crazy cauldrons of overprotective helicopter parents. I can't state how overprotective and risk averse the schools are, probably in response to these parents. Heck, when some parents wanted to encourage more kids to walk to school and formed a "walking school bus" to make it fun and encourage groups, there was great concern about safety to the point it was ridiculous. Instead of a group of kids and a few parents just gathering and walking to school on sidewalks beside relatively low traffic volume roads, it was turned into a big, hairy deal with permission slips, a formal signup each day, 2 to 1 chaperone ratio and all participants required to wear neon reflective safety vests. Middle and high schoolers aren't allowed to just "be" on campus unless it's school hours +/- 30 minutes or in a teacher chaperoned, preapproved group event. So, unlike when we were in school, a group of students can't simply sit at a picnic table outside and study together for an hour after school. They're considered unchaperoned and "for their safety" the parents or social services will be called. This is on the campus of a magnet school that rarely has discipline issues and regularly sends 1/4 of its graduating class to Ivies each year and 100% to college. Our schools make mountains out of relative molehills, yet nobody's concerned we have school sponsored entertainment that's pulverizing the kids' brain into mush? Seems odd. OMG that is nuts. I saw one article that said it was much less dangerous for kids to be at football practice than to be out driving around after school. Where I used to live in Georgia, the county next door was rural and affluent, and averaged over 1 teen in the high school killed in a traffic accident over 10 years. No one walked to school though.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 27, 2016 20:40:34 GMT -5
OK, I admit, that's another area I'm probably more strict than many other parents - driving. We didn't let DS drive on his own until we were comfortable he was very safe, we spent extra money to get a very safe car, he's not allowed to drive friends around (having other kids in the car is one of the major risk factors in teen accidents) for his first year of driving solo, he has to have his cell phone in the trunk when he drives, etc. And he can drive TO specific things, none of this "driving around" BS. So I guess when it comes to driving and brain injury, I'm one of the overprotective parents I roll my eyes at.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 27, 2016 20:41:42 GMT -5
I'm just thinking more about how weird it is that this hadn't been an issue in schools yet, especially high schools. I think our local schools are crazy cauldrons of overprotective helicopter parents. I can't state how overprotective and risk averse the schools are, probably in response to these parents. Heck, when some parents wanted to encourage more kids to walk to school and formed a "walking school bus" to make it fun and encourage groups, there was great concern about safety to the point it was ridiculous. Instead of a group of kids and a few parents just gathering and walking to school on sidewalks beside relatively low traffic volume roads, it was turned into a big, hairy deal with permission slips, a formal signup each day, 2 to 1 chaperone ratio and all participants required to wear neon reflective safety vests. Middle and high schoolers aren't allowed to just "be" on campus unless it's school hours +/- 30 minutes or in a teacher chaperoned, preapproved group event. So, unlike when we were in school, a group of students can't simply sit at a picnic table outside and study together for an hour after school. They're considered unchaperoned and "for their safety" the parents or social services will be called. This is on the campus of a magnet school that rarely has discipline issues and regularly sends 1/4 of its graduating class to Ivies each year and 100% to college. Our schools make mountains out of relative molehills, yet nobody's concerned we have school sponsored entertainment that's pulverizing the kids' brain into mush? Seems odd. Because 'Murica. My daddy played football, and I do too, so my kid will, dammit! I do know there is a huge push in peewee football here to in increase safety and awareness. They just did a fundraiser for new helmets, and are stressing proper form. i also know not every coach is as concerned as they should be. Hockey and lacrosse don't allow hitting until,later, so I don't think those are as bad. Soccer seems to be the worst, no helmet. I swam. It's even possible to get a concussion swimming, a mistimed turn, a screwed up start, or a lane collision in practice can do it. Im not sure how I feel about this. I think sports are valuable, if done the right way. But I also don't want my kids to get scrambled brains.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Nov 27, 2016 20:48:59 GMT -5
Within the next few years, hopefully there will be more conclusive data so people can make decisions about risk. The decisions I'd make as an adult would probably be different than those I'd make for my children. Although I'd probably be considered at the "free range" end of the parenting spectrum, I think it's my job to get my kids to adulthood without brain damage so I would not let them participate in activities with a high risk of concussion or brain damage; what they choose as adults will be up to them and their priorities. As an adult, I accept a fair amount of injury risk in my activities but definitely try to do whatever I can to protect my brain function since it's how I make my living and for me is a huge part of my quality of life. IMHO, the problem we have when looking at the CTE issue is that bottom line - people enjoy sports. They enjoy watching them, they have family traditions based around them, they view them as a huge part of their life. It's inconceivable to them that these sports might be so detrimental, so like we all do with things that we can't reconcile, they explain away or justify the risks because the consequences are too awful to face. But it doesn't matter, for some. Playing football (and why are you demonizing other sports?) increases your risk, and there is always someone who is willing to accept those risks, regardless of what the number is. Putting an exact number on it (and I seriously doubt you can do this) isn't going to change the attitude. Where do you draw the line? It is easy to demonize football, but I suspect that more than one figure skater, gymnast, equestrian, skier, etc. has dealt with multiple concussions. The only difference is that (1) skaters and gymnasts usually leave the competitive field much earlier and (2) they don't get the same kind of publicity. You make a good point about the risks associated with other sports. And those risks are not limited to head/brain injuries. One of my high school classmates was an Olympic downhill ski racer. By graduation day, she had received two major knee surgeries. And at least one more since then. I wonder, now that we are over 60 years old, how she is getting around. Now, I recognize that there are some inherent risks in downhill skiing. But, that didn't stop me from buying a new pairs of skis last week. Now that I'm older, I have a more realistic perspective of my abilities. Getting up from a fall is a lot more work than it used to be, so I ski so as to avoid falls. And the new gear makes skiing easier (the new skis are to make skiing crud easier). Maybe the improvements in technology are why the chalet looks like a senior center at mid morning most weekdays. The technology lets us gray haired old farts continue to ski!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Nov 27, 2016 21:03:36 GMT -5
There is a company in Seattle that has developed a helmet that reduces the force of impact anywhere from 20-50%. They are associated with the University of Washington and have also studied what causes concussions in order to better protect against them. This article explains the difference between the new helmet and the current ones (designed many years ago) which are designed instead to protect against skull fractures and brain hemorrhages.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 27, 2016 21:06:05 GMT -5
I saw one article that said it was much less dangerous for kids to be at football practice than to be out driving around after school. Yes, but I think that way of looking at football is deliberately overlooking the long term risk. To continue with the smoking analogy, if we're only looking at harm that manifests itself during the actual event only (practice or driving) it would be even safer if we locked those kids in a room and had them smoke a pack of cigarettes instead of driving or playing football. Some kids will die in traffic accidents, fewer kids will die during football practice (although here in Florida, it's not unheard of during the hotter months), and almost no kids will die in the two hours we have them locked in a room safely smoking instead of driving or playing football. But I suspect we can all spot the flaw in that way of looking at the risk. It ignores the long term impact of the activity. Some of those kids that smoke will die of lung cancer, COPD, stroke or one of the other related health issues. And we now know that some of those kids that at a football practice will sustain cumulative brain injuries from the repeated impacts that are an integral part of the game, no matter what safety techniques are implemented...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 28, 2016 7:31:48 GMT -5
Football, football, football. Yet, parents think it is perfectly fine to let kids allow a ball to slam the top of their heads with soccer! LOL!!! Oh yeah, that's the PC sport now. I forgot.
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milee
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Post by milee on Nov 28, 2016 8:39:25 GMT -5
... deleted. Early morning snark.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Nov 28, 2016 9:21:05 GMT -5
Haven't seen it mentioned here but a substantial source of concussions is soccer. Soccer, like hockey, is another sport that can be made safer with a rule change or two. It's likely time to consider removing heading the ball from the game.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 28, 2016 9:48:10 GMT -5
www.history.com/news/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-footballAn intercollegiate conference, which would become the forerunner of the NCAA, approved radical rule changes for the 1906 season. They legalized the forward pass, abolished the dangerous mass formations, created a neutral zone between offense and defense and doubled the first-down distance to 10 yards, to be gained in three downs. The rule changes didn’t eliminate football’s dangers, but fatalities declined—to 11 per year in both 1906 and 1907—while injuries fell sharply. A spike in fatalities in 1909 led to another round of reforms that further eased restrictions on the forward pass and formed the foundation of the modern sport.
Football has been changed before in order to make it safer. There was also a huge backlash against the above because this was 'Merica dammit and changing the rules was going to ruin football forever! I do not see why the game cannot be modified to eliminate tackling now that we are aware of the risks. And here are the current rules for kids soccer since it was mentioned. www.ayso.org/For_Volunteers/region_boards/regional_commissioner/RC_News/New_Rules_and_Regulations__Heading_the_Ball_s4_p3600.htm#.WDxDzydHNeU Consistent with the U.S. Soccer mandates on heading the ball, heading is banned for all division players U-11 (U-12 and below for programs without single age divisions) and below in both practices and games.
They are also moving to ban heading the ball in the major/minor leagues for adults in the United States as well.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 28, 2016 10:01:06 GMT -5
Haven't seen it mentioned here but a substantial source of concussions is soccer. I did, mentioning it was on the high end of the spectrum of risk like football, ice hockey and soccer. ETA: But football is a much higher profile sport than any of the others, so that is why it is getting the attention. I suspect that this condition is seen at comparable rates in athletes from other sports, but football has gotten all the publicity. Come to think of it, you can add boxing to the list. I think that this was recognized in boxers first.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Nov 28, 2016 10:11:33 GMT -5
The UYSA just made a rule change where kids under 12 aren't allowed to head the ball. I agree it's not the safest. We have 4 kids playing soccer competitive soccer (up to age 17), and haven't had a concussion yet. Two broken wrists, though.
I think football is different in the fact that for half of the players, the whole point is to tackle someone. It's not the same incidental contact you get with other sports, it's deliberate, play after play.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 28, 2016 10:15:30 GMT -5
... I am 47 years old and when I was young, Muhammed Ali and Willie Shoemaker were household names and heroes. They both appeared constantly on talk shows, radio interviews, and print articles and nobody said a darned thing about how the sport in which they excelled gobbled up young men, used them mostly for the profit of others, and then discarded them, often after considerable damage had been done to both their bodies and their minds. ... First, Howard Cosell Criticism of boxing and, second, jockeying?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 28, 2016 10:39:04 GMT -5
I'm just thinking more about how weird it is that this hadn't been an issue in schools yet, especially high schools. I think our local schools are crazy cauldrons of overprotective helicopter parents. I can't state how overprotective and risk averse the schools are, probably in response to these parents. Heck, when some parents wanted to encourage more kids to walk to school and formed a "walking school bus" to make it fun and encourage groups, there was great concern about safety to the point it was ridiculous. Instead of a group of kids and a few parents just gathering and walking to school on sidewalks beside relatively low traffic volume roads, it was turned into a big, hairy deal with permission slips, a formal signup each day, 2 to 1 chaperone ratio and all participants required to wear neon reflective safety vests. Middle and high schoolers aren't allowed to just "be" on campus unless it's school hours +/- 30 minutes or in a teacher chaperoned, preapproved group event. So, unlike when we were in school, a group of students can't simply sit at a picnic table outside and study together for an hour after school. They're considered unchaperoned and "for their safety" the parents or social services will be called. This is on the campus of a magnet school that rarely has discipline issues and regularly sends 1/4 of its graduating class to Ivies each year and 100% to college. Our schools make mountains out of relative molehills, yet nobody's concerned we have school sponsored entertainment that's pulverizing the kids' brain into mush? Seems odd. Why it isn't a problem in schools yet...there are few if any major reputable studies about the impact of these activities within the confines of high school or younger. We have lots of professional athletes donating their brains to be studied...there are very few people who played 2 years of varsity football saying "hey, I have a bunch of brain issues due to that brief time playing football, study my brain when I die". They do this research when people die, they just don't have the brains to research of people who did a little bit of contact sport in high school, never hit their head after that, and then died in such a suspicious way that they decided to donate the brain to CTE research.
Just because people play the same "sport" doesn't mean they're playing the same game. There's a big difference between professional football players slamming their heads into one another as hard as they can, and high school kids who weigh half, run half as fast, and are half as strong trying to tackle one another.
As for why overprotective schools aren't freaking out about this...there are stories every day of kids walking to school and getting abducted (or hit by a car, or whatever). There are basically no stories about high school athletes suffering from CTE.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 28, 2016 15:42:20 GMT -5
I'm just thinking more about how weird it is that this hadn't been an issue in schools yet, especially high schools. ... ...
As for why overprotective schools aren't freaking out about this...there are stories every day of kids walking to school and getting abducted (or hit by a car, or whatever). There are basically no stories about high school athletes suffering from CTE.
Well if a kid walks to school and gets abducted (or hit by a car, or whatever) people will know about it in a New York minute and, since they know, they'll talk about it now and look at ways to make the world safer for their kids. However if a kid develops CTE due to the concussions s/he got playing HS sports it manifest several years down the line. No awareness for society at large and, as a result of this, resistance to make changes to a game that "has been the same forever and nothing happened to me, so..."
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 28, 2016 16:44:34 GMT -5
...
As for why overprotective schools aren't freaking out about this...there are stories every day of kids walking to school and getting abducted (or hit by a car, or whatever). There are basically no stories about high school athletes suffering from CTE.
Well if a kid walks to school and gets abducted (or hit by a car, or whatever) people will know about it in a New York minute and, since they know, they'll talk about it now and look at ways to make the world safer for their kids. However if a kid develops CTE due to the concussions s/he got playing HS sports it manifest several years down the line. No awareness for society at large and, as a result of this, resistance to make changes to a game that "has been the same forever and nothing happened to me, so..." I think the over VERY significant point about the comparison of professional athletes and young athletes...for YEARS, people knew that former athletes (specifically football players) had serious mental and physical issues after they had retired. Nobody had a name for it, you just knew that there was something wrong with a lot of them. CTE gave it a name. CTE gave it a specific cause. It's not as if prior to "CTE" becoming a thing everyone just thought all that smashing of heads together was healthy though. CTE shed light on an existing problem, and it gave us a lot more information about what people can do to stop it (I think prior to this a lot of people realized concussions were a problem, but the idea that non-concussion hits would lead to such extreme issues wasn't really out there or considered).
We just don't have the kind of freaky stories about CTE at younger levels of sports (the first time one of these kids shoots up a school and someone figures out it was due to CTE...it's going to get a lot more attention then). Part of it is that we don't really have high-profile athletes at that young of an age. As a comparison...just look at how many high school football players die every year due to the heat of late-summer practices. People focus on hydration more now, but nobody says "just outlaw those practices completely".
When you look at the % of athletes who donate their brains to CTE research, it's pretty much all of them in football that are found to have it. It's still a SUPER small sample size though, it's not going to hit the younger ages until we can get a lot more information about those who only played youth sports (and really, it doesn't even occur to folks like me to donate my brain to science to check for CTE.)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Nov 28, 2016 16:49:02 GMT -5
I have no facts to back this up, just observation, but it seems like collisions between players would cause more concussions in soccer than heading the ball intentionally.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 28, 2016 16:57:30 GMT -5
Some of the issue with CTE is it is cumulative. We really don't know for sure how many concussions/hits to the head are too many and exactly how long is it before your brain turns to scrambled eggs.
It's hard to study because from an ethical standpoint you can't divide kids up into groups then bash group A and B in the head repeatedly while leaving group C alone to measure brain activity/damage over time. The data we can gather is limiting because like Hoops said, it's post mortem brains from people who played a lifetime of football. We don't have any data on that person regarding childhood and how damage may have accumulated over time.
We need studies that measure brain activity in children starting in pee wee football and then follows them thru their lifetime, including the ones who DO NOT go onto play professionally. Those kind of longitudinal studies are difficult to do.
Personally I feel that if football could be changed once to save lifes/reduce injury then there is absolutely no reason that football cannot be modified again to take out tackling. Roosevelt didn't destroy football as we know it, the game continued to survive and even thrive. "That's the way it's always been done" is not a good enough reason to keep putting kids at risk of long term brain damage. Neither is "well I don't have scrambled eggs for brains and haven't known anyone else to therefore let's keep going". IMHO YMMV.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 28, 2016 17:04:27 GMT -5
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Nov 28, 2016 17:48:34 GMT -5
I have no facts to back this up, just observation, but it seems like collisions between players would cause more concussions in soccer than heading the ball intentionally. I think for teenage males and up, this is very true. They have found that because in general women have weaker necks, they get concussions from heading the ball more often, even as adults.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Nov 29, 2016 1:01:47 GMT -5
I have no facts to back this up, just observation, but it seems like collisions between players would cause more concussions in soccer than heading the ball intentionally. Heading the ball might be cumulative sub-concussive damage?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 5:05:09 GMT -5
So glad I was a band nerd. The only way I was ever going to get a concussion there was if the jackass playing the trombone behind me kept boinking me in the head with the slide. Actually, he'd get the concussion because I'd turn around and slug him.
With all the head injuries I gave myself as a child, I've probably had a couple of concussions and I've turned out fine😆. The drunkenness is a family trait, not a concussion aftermath. Although, now I'm wondering if the seizure I had 4 years ago might be related to the head injuries and not the meningitis? Maybe I'll bring that up with my neurologist in 2 weeks. Hmmmm....
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 29, 2016 7:39:51 GMT -5
Soccer should be banned immediately. Hitting a ball off of your cranium is pure idiocy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 8:10:46 GMT -5
I threw this out as a journal topic yesterday. It was timely because we are in the play-offs. The guys weren't worried about it. They told me all about the improvements to the helmets, both now and in the future, etc. But I did get them to admit that they weren't born loving football. It was something they were taught. The girls chose to write about the other topic--what they thought about the recount efforts going on.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 29, 2016 8:58:51 GMT -5
I have no facts to back this up, just observation, but it seems like collisions between players would cause more concussions in soccer than heading the ball intentionally. It might, but concussions are one thing, CTE is another (which is caused by repetitive non-concussive hits). I don't see a lot of soccer players getting concussions from heading the ball...concussions are typically one big hit which wouldn't happen from the simple act of heading a ball in most cases. That's a big part of the risk with CTE...it's caused by repetitive hits to the head which would likely seem like no big deal at the time, and it can't be diagnosed until you're dead when they look at the brain.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 29, 2016 9:41:08 GMT -5
Soccer should be banned immediately. Hitting a ball off of your cranium is pure idiocy. Or you could just ban heading the ball which has already been done in junior leagues and they are moving towards in adult leagues. The rules were posted a couple pages back if you were interested in reading rather than hyperbole.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 29, 2016 9:52:31 GMT -5
I think football can survive rule changes again to make it safer...I'm not so sure it can survive as flag football though. The game would go faster though because it's a lot easier to pull a flag. I'm not a big football fan so I dunno if I'm with the majority, but I don't think I'd ever watch flag football on TV.
I know hockey can survive without the fights - though I fully admit to loving when they happen (minus staged fights, let's just stop that). Getting rid of checking probably won't work, but as that rarely has head contact an improvement to the helmets might be enough. Right now I think they're mainly to protect against falling head first onto ice and flying pucks.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 29, 2016 10:27:19 GMT -5
“Dunbar loved shooting skeet because he hated every minute of it and the time passed so slowly. He had figured out that a single hour on the skeet-shooting range with people like Havermeyer and Appleby could be worth as much as eleven-times-seventeen years. “I think you’re crazy,” was the way Clevinger had responded to Dunbar’s discovery. “Who wants to know?” Dunbar answered. “I mean it,” Clevinger insisted. “Who cares?” Dunbar answered. “I really do. I’ll even go as far as to concede that life seems longer i—“ “—is longer i—“ “—is longer—IS longer? All right, is longer if it’s filled with periods of boredom and discomfort, b—“ Joseph Heller, Catch 22
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 29, 2016 10:57:08 GMT -5
Touch football would work just fine for children and teens I believe. There is no reason they need to be tackling each other, especially when you consider those are the critical years for brain development.
While I don't think grown men should suffer scrambled brains for our entertainment they are still adults and if they wanted to keep tackling in the NFL and continue to play that is their choice. I would be fine with that.
I don't agree with tackling in HS or the little leagues. Those are the years of critical brain development and IMHO we should not be sitting around saying "well let's wait and see what the evidence says" before we change things. It's not going to kill football if we change the rules for kids anymore than it's killed soccer to ban heading the ball.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 29, 2016 11:31:45 GMT -5
Touch football would work just fine for children and teens I believe. There is no reason they need to be tackling each other, especially when you consider those are the critical years for brain development. While I don't think grown men should suffer scrambled brains for our entertainment they are still adults and if they wanted to keep tackling in the NFL and continue to play that is their choice. I would be fine with that. I don't agree with tackling in HS or the little leagues. Those are the years of critical brain development and IMHO we should not be sitting around saying "well let's wait and see what the evidence says" before we change things. It's not going to kill football if we change the rules for kids anymore than it's killed soccer to ban heading the ball. I think it probably would kill football. Soccer is and always has been primarily about using your foot to move a ball. Football is and always has been primarily about tackling other people. There's a big difference between removing an ancillary part of a game for HS and younger, and removing the primary part of the game in terms of viability of the game continuing.
All that said, you can pretty much do anything you want to soccer and America as a whole won't notice. You can't kill a game that was never really alive and thriving here.
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