Anyone had stem cell injections?

[midjd]

DH has had seven surgeries on his right knee since we've been together, including a meniscus replacement in 2013. He is still dealing with pain and a limited range of motion. They won't perform any more surgery on it until he's old enough for a total knee replacement (probably another 20 years). 

Last year he got a hyaluronan injection that he says helped some with the range of motion in the joint, although not the pain. It lasted about 6-9 months, which is about what they predicted. Today he got hyaluronan injection #2, and the physician's assistant suggested that he get a stem cell injection next time. 

It's experimental so not covered by insurance, and they require $3,000 cash up front. (This cost seems to be in line with what other places are charging.) But she said it can usually provide pain relief for at least 1-2 years, with some people not needing another one for 3 years. 

My initial reaction was "ack!" at the price, but honestly, for the $50K+ we have in his knee so far (with no improvement), I would spend way more than $3K on something that actually worked. The problem is, I have no idea if it does, and we have tried so many different things I am pretty pessimistic. 

Anyone had them? Know anyone who has? I found a couple of articles on PubMed, but I would love to talk to at least one person with experience... 

[zibazinski]

Yes. It's a lengthy day process and they should not be telling you it'll last for a few years. It's cost is for EVERY treatment but if you've been in pain and nothing else is working, the results are almost instantaneous.

[skubikky]

Does the surgeon that he goes to have a lot of experience with the stem cell injections?
Is a 2nd opinion worthwhile?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

No experience with stem cell injections, here, just spinal steroid injections (which either work to relieve pain, or don't). How does the stem cell injection work? Do the stem cells re-generate a new, human, meniscus/cartilage?

[wvugurl26]

The stem cells do regenerate your bone.

Mid I sent you a pm.

[azucena]

Weird that he's too young for a replacement. My husband had his left hip replaced at age 21 and his right at age 23.  He had necrosis due to prednisone use to control ulcerative colitis.  They told us to expect to replace the plastic cushion piece after 15 yrs. Last year's check-up was yr 17 and they are still fine. Maybe knees are different though.

[midjd]

Does the surgeon that he goes to have a lot of experience with the stem cell injections?
Is a 2nd opinion worthwhile?

I am always up for a second opinion, but we’d probably have to travel – the practice he goes to now is the best in the state. His surgeon has an engineering degree and has been the design engineer on a lot of biologic joint replacements… very House-esque bedside manner but he’s probably earned it. I generally trust his opinion. He was one of the designers behind some process they use to extract the stem cells, which I think is why they're able to offer it here. 

DH brought home the brochure last night so I have some more info. They have four types of injections (plasma, amniotic fluid, bone marrow, and fat) and they circled the amniotic fluid and fat ones.

The amniotic fluid injection (ReNu) is basically stem cells from the placenta of a healthy full-term baby. The stem cells are supposed to help regenerate the cartilage and minimize the bone-on-bone contact (which is where most of the pain comes from).

The other one is called LipoGems – they suck a small amount of fat out of your stomach and emulsify it to get all the stem cells out, then inject it into your knee. I think the advantage of that one over amniotic fluid is there is basically no risk of rejection. (He is O positive and already has two different cadaver bones so I think there’s little worry there).

ReNu is $2K - $3K and LipoGems is $3.5K. I am leaning toward ReNu only because I think a fresh baby probably has healthier stem cells than a 32yo who smoked for 14 years and used to work in a steel foundry. Not enough cost difference to matter. I need to get more info on how long they’re really supposed to last, though. I told DH it was totally his decision and I am not opposed to whatever he wants to try.

Maybe knees are different though.

I think it’s the extra wear and tear vs other joints… what I have heard is that even the best replacement knees are pretty much done at 10-15 years, and they don’t want to subject a 30yo to potentially 4-5 surgeries over the course of the rest of his life.

Then again, I have heard that breast implants need to be replaced with around the same frequency, and doctors don’t seem to have a problem doing those on 18yos, so…

[wvugurl26]

Oh mid the one I sent you they use your own cells. But maybe the healthy baby would be the better option lol! Good luck!

[zibazinski]

I'd want to know the pros and cons of using some one else's cells. I'd never ever do it.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

So some company's executives and shareholders are getting filthy rich selling stem cells from MY kids' placentas??!!

I never agreed to sell them. I'm fairly certain my insurance company paid a "disposal fee".

Freaking thieves!!!

;-)

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Sept 1, 2016 7:40:34 GMT -5 azucena said:

Weird that he's too young for a replacement. My husband had his left hip replaced at age 21 and his right at age 23.  He had necrosis due to prednisone use to control ulcerative colitis.  They told us to expect to replace the plastic cushion piece after 15 yrs. Last year's check-up was yr 17 and they are still fine. Maybe knees are different though.

Knees are different from hips.  They have a shorter longevity and less bone available for revision.

I have 2 hips, and had revisions on both due to infection.  I do not have enough bone left for another revision, so if they fail....I'm in a wheelchair.

[midjd]

Sept 1, 2016 10:43:20 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So some company's executives and shareholders are getting filthy rich selling stem cells from MY kids' placentas??!!

I never agreed to sell them. I'm fairly certain my insurance company paid a "disposal fee".

Freaking thieves!!!

;-)

One of my really good friends is due 9/15, I texted her to ask if we could have her placenta. She said "take whatever you want, I don't care."  

I need to learn more about stem cells... I understand the simple explanation of an early cell being able to turn into any other kind of cell, but that they can grow knee cartilage out of stomach fat or placenta tissue is just mind-boggling. And they just throw this stuff away, it's crazy!

[zibazinski]

The powers that be are working on more than just growing you some new cartilage. This could be the answer to a lot of prayers for desperate people in need of organs.

[MJ2.0]

Stem cells are truly amazing.

[thyme4change]

Sept 1, 2016 10:43:20 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So some company's executives and shareholders are getting filthy rich selling stem cells from MY kids' placentas??!!

I never agreed to sell them. I'm fairly certain my insurance company paid a "disposal fee".

Freaking thieves!!!

;-)

If my kids' placenta helps people, or even one person, be in less pain or healthier, they can have it!!

[toomuchreality]

Sept 1, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5 midjd said:

Sept 1, 2016 10:43:20 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So some company's executives and shareholders are getting filthy rich selling stem cells from MY kids' placentas??!!

I never agreed to sell them. I'm fairly certain my insurance company paid a "disposal fee".

Freaking thieves!!!

;-)

One of my really good friends is due 9/15, I texted her to ask if we could have her placenta. She said "take whatever you want, I don't care."  

I need to learn more about stem cells... I understand the simple explanation of an early cell being able to turn into any other kind of cell, but that they can grow knee cartilage out of stomach fat or placenta tissue is just mind-boggling. And they just throw this stuff away, it's crazy!

I agree. It's mind boggling!


If he has it done, I hope it goes well for him. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Sept 1, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5 midjd said:

Sept 1, 2016 10:43:20 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So some company's executives and shareholders are getting filthy rich selling stem cells from MY kids' placentas??!!

I never agreed to sell them. I'm fairly certain my insurance company paid a "disposal fee".

Freaking thieves!!!

;-)

One of my really good friends is due 9/15, I texted her to ask if we could have her placenta. She said "take whatever you want, I don't care."  

I need to learn more about stem cells... I understand the simple explanation of an early cell being able to turn into any other kind of cell, but that they can grow knee cartilage out of stomach fat or placenta tissue is just mind-boggling. And they just throw this stuff away, it's crazy!

There is more to it then just squeezing cells out of a placenta.  Like with giving blood, these need to be processed properly in order to get the cells in the condition they need to be in to work.

Retrieving cells is laborious and expensive.  So unless you have some to do so on a specific schedule, the tissue is useless and it is a waste of expensive time, reagents and supplies to get a poor yield or useless cells.  So throwing it away DOES make sense.  It is like spending time cooking a prime rib that has rotted out.  It is an expensive piece of meat, but regardless of how carefully you treat it and cook it, it will still be inedible at the end.....and could possibly make you sick.