MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2016 20:40:03 GMT -5
this is the program: www.northeastcarpenters.org/sistersI am a bit intrigued and did fill out an interest form. There's some sort of informational meeting on 7/10 but you have to fill out an application via phone (which I thought was weird). I really want to get into the construction field and ideally into project management, so even though I'm basically set up for engineering school (nothing's been paid out yet though), carpentry is still pretty related IMO. My thoughts are a lot of what NastyWoman brought up re: gender discrimination and sexual harassment. I've never experienced that before and I'm not terribly eager to subject myself to it. you don't need to be a carpenter to get into project management. have you looked into the Project Management Institute for a Project Management Professional certification? many of the folks I worked with in my last job in project management positions were degreed in various engineering disciplines. I know I don't have to be a carpenter to get into project management. I see it as a sort of alternative route. A long time ago I looked into the project management certification, and for construction almost all the jobs want you to have construction experience and/or an engineering degree.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 5, 2016 20:44:22 GMT -5
ok, just making sure you knew that.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jun 5, 2016 21:39:16 GMT -5
I worked in a shipyard as did my father, uncle, brother and ex and woman have been in the trades over 40 years. When I was late 30s my ex wanted me to be an apprentice pipe fitter and I could be even older than men and had taken college math so up to 29 so this was 1977. The only woman pipe fitter I knew was one he partnered with at work, her dad was a union official she was a pretty young woman. He took her as a partner because the other pipefitters didn't treat her right. She couldn't lift a 300lb valve or even really help lift one, he was a body builder so he would send her to get parts then have someone else help him a minute. Guys didn't respect her and at that point they were being forced to accept woman and minorities and were angry. They did things like hanging pictures of naked women in the lunch room or grabbing woman on the ships and feeling them up. I decided not to be a pipe fitter. In 2002 I did accounting in the same shipyard and the welder foreman was female and a few other women tradespeople. The welder was a black woman who earned the job and respect and her husband worked for her, she and he retired the same day and they were missed. Most woman were things like scalers that clean not real trades people but no reason not to be. Funny thing is when I was young all union trades were white men and when I retired most weren't white and over 5% woman, the electrician foreman was black with about 40 years experience so those who got let in during the 60s and70s were the most highly qualified. Woman are suited for some jobs like driving forklifts and electrician or painters more than something that has more lifting but anything a 65 year old man with a heart condition can do a 25 year old woman can do. Some jobs like dock master are mostly office and telling people what to do we had an old man with lung cancer doing it that couldn't walk more than 10 feet. Crane operator is another good job for woman. My brother's first wife retired this week from a forklift job she is 65 been doing it for decades.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 5, 2016 23:20:58 GMT -5
I came across a job posting looking for women to train as carpenters. It was a 5 year program that was paid 100% of the way through. Beginning wage was around $18/hr and by the end the wage rose to over $45/hr. I thought that was pretty interesting. What are your thoughts and/or experiences with female tradespeople (plumbers, carpenters, electricians)? I know we have at least one on the boards - Apple The down side to some trades jobs is that they can be seasonal. Or subject to extended layoffs when the economy goes south. While $45 an hour sounds like a lot of money, it's $45K a year if you only get 1,000 hours of work a year. Or, if you include a two to four hour daily commute, as an uncle of mine who was a carpenter did for several years, the hourly rate becomes less attractive, too. While working in the trades does provide some challenges, I think it's a great career choice for many folks. Male or female.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jun 5, 2016 23:38:20 GMT -5
I haven't had time to check the links (worked a night shift then had to drive a few hours to go see Sweeney Todd...) If you do your research and decide you want to go with it, it can be the best thing in your life, and it can be the worst.
I was very good at my job. I worked hard and earned respect with most of the men around me. I rarely had problems, but when I did, it all turned very bad, very quick. I dealt with sexual harassment for years and only finally said something when the person doing it was trying to interfere with my career and future promotions. Because I was at the top, there were a few guys who felt very threatened, and used this as an opportunity to stab me in the back so they could try to secure the promotions for themselves. It really was great until all that happened though. The key was to go in, be observant, and be the kind of worker that was needed. Even just standing there when someone else is doing the work (sometimes it is a one man job but you need two people for safety) there was a technique to being a good "tool partner"-- learn to anticipate what tool they'd need next and have it ready for them, learn to hold a flashlight (you'd be amazed at people who can't hold it without blinding you while you work), and stay out of the way at the same time.
My career was amazing for the first 14 years, then I was literally worried for my safety, because a couple of these guys would stop at nothing if they thought they could get away with it. And, there were many jobs where "accidents" could be arranged-- knock you off a ladder, push you into a live circuit, wire something incorrectly so that when someone else has to troubleshoot it, it blows up on them (that happened to me, although that time it was not intentional on the part of the person who wired it, he was just drunk...) Even something like flipping a switch when you weren't looking (putting a piece of equipment in reverse, so they could laugh if it threw you off and you got hurt, that happened too).
My sister had some bad experiences very early on. One man, making a point that "women don't belong in the field", intentionally dropped a large ceiling panel on her head while she was standing on a ladder. Her head hit duct work on the way down, and years and a few surgeries later, and she is still suffering from the injury. Nothing happened to the guy who did it, even though he later confessed he did it on purpose.
So, hope for the best, but also be prepared for the worst.
Craftswork really is rewarding though! It's nice to be done with a job and see the results of your work (one of my first jobs, when I was just working with different trades, was to help build a decorative, but strong, fence and gate--years later I still got to look at it and know I helped build it). You go home tired and sore after a good day, but proud of what you accomplished.
It also pays well. The pay sounds about right for union work, but, as with many construction related jobs, it could be feast or famine. I'd look into how long there average lay-offs are, and how long someone is "on the books" (waiting for a job to take). You can't just take any job when you're union, and there will likely be a "pay back" period you'll need to work without having to pay back the education/training costs for leaving.
The work I do now is still field work, but isn't really a craft (we aren't supposed to use tools unless needed to hang a clearance, and then only certain tools). I do miss the feeling of accomplishment when I finish writing a program or installing a piece of equipment, but I'm happier than I've been in a very long time. I work with a good group of guys, and since I'm not interested in the promotion (it would put you basically in an "office" 12 hours a day, and you cannot leave the room--I have no interest in that at all, even though it pays more than $10/hr more), they don't see me as a threat, so no one is pulling out the knives on me.
I would simultaneously encourage you to pursue it, and also caution you that the dangers really are out there if you have a man (or even another woman) who thinks you shouldn't be there. Hopefully you could avoid those situations for more than the 14 years I had without them!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 6, 2016 5:18:07 GMT -5
I wish I knew carpentry! I think it is awesome. I guess my only concern would be the physical side of it. But maybe it won't be as bad as commercial hvac. My ex did that when he was younger. Most of it wouldn't be difficult for a women but when he had to swap out compressors that requires a lot of strength.
But tradesmen so make some good money. So that's a plus!
Our mutual friend is a union carpenter. Why don't you message him for his input. I can tell you he was getting laid off a lot around here (all of the Union jobs like that were). Now he is full time at a company and hasn't been laid off since
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 6, 2016 8:11:56 GMT -5
My lower back has issues and it's bothering me this morning. I don't even want to know how bad it would get if I had a job that physically demanding. If I didn't have any problems, it would be different. So I don't think I'll pursue this. I'll continue on my intended path. but it would be really cool to learn carpentry.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jun 6, 2016 8:40:43 GMT -5
If you just want to learn some basic things, so that you can be handy, see if your community college or adult ed offers woodworking classes (ours does, or used to, it was just non-credit). The Habitat for Humanity around here is always looking for volunteers. There is one house that was built by only women, but usually the work is done by both sexes. It's pretty freeing to be able to do/fix stuff at home by yourself
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jun 6, 2016 8:50:45 GMT -5
DH works in a shop that does finish carpentry and millwork - things like high end fireplace mantles, private libraries, wine cellars, crown molding and base trim. They work mostly at their shop and they have installers that go to the job sites to install the finished work. So they are actually in a pretty good spot as far as good working conditions in a climate controlled building with full safety protocols. But most of the guys in their 50s are already starting to get physically worn out and have multiple back issues.
Unfortunately although the pay is good, there are no benefits and very few of them have significant retirement savings. A lot of them are stuck continuing to work while in severe pain until when they can get social security. The nature of his employer is they can always pick up unlimited overtime at time and a half, so they got used to just spending what they want and then work extra to make up for it, which doesn't work so well when your body can't keep up with it.
We have been aggressively saving so that if DH starts to have problems he can just stop working there.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 6, 2016 8:57:13 GMT -5
I work for a company that employs union ironworkers. We currently have about 150 on payroll and 2 of them are woman. Not a huge percentage. carpenters might have a higher number of woman. Also I have been working here for 11 years and we have only had one female Project manager and one engineer. We currently have about 15 project managers and 6 engineers. So it is a tough field for woman to break into. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 6, 2016 8:59:45 GMT -5
If you just want to learn some basic things, so that you can be handy, see if your community college or adult ed offers woodworking classes (ours does, or used to, it was just non-credit). The Habitat for Humanity around here is always looking for volunteers. There is one house that was built by only women, but usually the work is done by both sexes. It's pretty freeing to be able to do/fix stuff at home by yourself I did two days with HFH last summer and I loved it. I would have done more but on the 2nd job/day I did mostly work site cleanup and really did a number on my lower back. I'll make it a point to do at least one day this summer - hopefully more. I'll also look at what the CC offers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 9:32:51 GMT -5
Also your local tech school. Ours offers evening adult classes.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 6, 2016 12:08:49 GMT -5
you don't need to be a carpenter to get into project management. have you looked into the Project Management Institute for a Project Management Professional certification? many of the folks I worked with in my last job in project management positions were degreed in various engineering disciplines. I know I don't have to be a carpenter to get into project management. I see it as a sort of alternative route. A long time ago I looked into the project management certification, and for construction almost all the jobs want you to have construction experience and/or an engineering degree. You need to pick a path and stick to it. There is a huge difference in career path going to trade school vs. engineering school. Construction experience doesn't mean actually doing the construction, but working on construction projects (design, planning, scheduling, etc.). Going to trade school puts you on a career path to be a tradesperson or possibly trades supervisor. If you want to get into construction management you need a professional degree in engineering or construction management. I know of a few people who got into construction project management without a degree, but they are now 70+. In today's world it is about the degree. I have an engineering degree. I joke with my husband that I cannot actually do anything, but I can tell other people what to do. I work directly with tradespeople (pipe fitters, welders, electricians, instrument techs) on a day-to-day basis, and have a great respect for the work they do, and have a good relationship with them. But they are the ones who do the work, while I manage the projects. I am currently project manager for a $20 million expansion project at our site. Part of managing the project is being able to understand what others do, but I don't have to be able to do. I have to talk to structural engineers, HVAC engineers, electrical engineers, let them do their job but keep the overall project on track. I did not learn any of that in engineering school, but somewhere along the way someone must have decided I had the skills to do this work. If I had to do calculations from my engineering school days (30 years ago) I would be in deep trouble. But I would never get a project manager assignment without an engineering degree. And BTW, I think it is very difficult for women to go into trades positions and stay there. They are usually physically demanding jobs that take a toll on your body long term. Plus the discrimination that you face as others have described. In some portions of engineering, there are a lot more males than females, but there is a lot less discrimination. I have never felt discriminated against, but there are many times that I am the only female in a meeting. And in the US, there are a lot more female engineers than in foreign countries, even in Western Europe. I currently work for a German company, and of the 30-40 engineers I have met from Germany, only 1 has been female and she is only 3 years out of engineering school. On the US side, I would say it can be up to 25% female engineers.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 6, 2016 13:43:14 GMT -5
I know I don't have to be a carpenter to get into project management. I see it as a sort of alternative route. A long time ago I looked into the project management certification, and for construction almost all the jobs want you to have construction experience and/or an engineering degree. You need to pick a path and stick to it. There is a huge difference in career path going to trade school vs. engineering school. Construction experience doesn't mean actually doing the construction, but working on construction projects (design, planning, scheduling, etc.). Going to trade school puts you on a career path to be a tradesperson or possibly trades supervisor. If you want to get into construction management you need a professional degree in engineering or construction management. I know of a few people who got into construction project management without a degree, but they are now 70+. In today's world it is about the degree. I have an engineering degree. I joke with my husband that I cannot actually do anything, but I can tell other people what to do. I work directly with tradespeople (pipe fitters, welders, electricians, instrument techs) on a day-to-day basis, and have a great respect for the work they do, and have a good relationship with them. But they are the ones who do the work, while I manage the projects. I am currently project manager for a $20 million expansion project at our site. Part of managing the project is being able to understand what others do, but I don't have to be able to do. I have to talk to structural engineers, HVAC engineers, electrical engineers, let them do their job but keep the overall project on track. I did not learn any of that in engineering school, but somewhere along the way someone must have decided I had the skills to do this work. If I had to do calculations from my engineering school days (30 years ago) I would be in deep trouble. But I would never get a project manager assignment without an engineering degree. And BTW, I think it is very difficult for women to go into trades positions and stay there. They are usually physically demanding jobs that take a toll on your body long term. Plus the discrimination that you face as others have described. In some portions of engineering, there are a lot more males than females, but there is a lot less discrimination. I have never felt discriminated against, but there are many times that I am the only female in a meeting. And in the US, there are a lot more female engineers than in foreign countries, even in Western Europe. I currently work for a German company, and of the 30-40 engineers I have met from Germany, only 1 has been female and she is only 3 years out of engineering school. On the US side, I would say it can be up to 25% female engineers. You make some good points and I appreciate your input. As I said, I will stick to the original path.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 6, 2016 15:02:36 GMT -5
Women in trades is more common than people think! I know quite a few that are electricians and carpenters. One of them, a very good carpenter, runs her own business, has maybe 10 employees but she prefers working in the field rather than playing boss. She's a hell of a rough framing carpenter and floors installer. Electrical and gas work also has plenty of women in the field. I even had myself a women working for about a year, slinging mortar and cutting stone. She had a very artistic eye but lacked on the physical strength/ endurance that is most of the time required. What would get me about this program is the time period necessary for instruction -5 years! That is longer than any aprenticeship that I've heard of. Then is the wages question: $18/hr to $45/hr. Is the $18/hr at the start of the training or what/how? That kind of wages in trades are paid only on prevailing wages jobs which means they have secured public funded projects and might be required to have a certain percentage of women. Around here, a carpenter's apprentice might make $15-$18/hr. Only the best make $30-$35. Prevailing wages in Pa for carpenters II is about $22-25/hr plus fringe benefits which puts you to about $35. It's 5 years from pre-apprentice to apprentice to journey(wo)man. Your beginning wages (I take it to mean when you start the pre-apprentice program) are around $18/hr. Keep in mind that you live in a lower COLA than I do. Is $18 an hour more than your current retail job, or would you be taking a pay cut for the experience.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 6, 2016 15:32:02 GMT -5
You make some good points and I appreciate your input. As I said, I will stick to the original path. Good for you for sticking to the original path, and good for you for exploring other options before commiting! I am a firm believer in going with what you have yet at the same time I also think there is nothing wrong, and probably a lot of good, with being flexible enough to explore all opportunities as they come along. Provided that doesn't lead to never going anywhere at all.
Signing off as the "chemist, pre-school teacher, fundraiser, financial analyst, contracts manager" I am. I had all these jobs at one time or another, mostly due to what was available where and when... Throw in years and years of FT volunteer work and you have my life in just a nutshell.
And of all these things I am probably happiest that I did the teaching thingy just for a year. I enjoyed it while I did it and was even reasonably good at it, but long term I do not have the temperament for that kind of work (can you spell impatient? LOL)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 16:13:49 GMT -5
You make some good points and I appreciate your input. As I said, I will stick to the original path. Good for you for sticking to the original path, and good for you for exploring other options before commiting! I am a firm believer in going with what you have yet at the same time I also think there is nothing wrong, and probably a lot of good, with being flexible enough to explore all opportunities as they come along. Provided that doesn't lead to never going anywhere at all.
Signing off as the "chemist, pre-school teacher, fundraiser, financial analyst, contracts manager" I am. I had all these jobs at one time or another, mostly due to what was available where and when... Throw in years and years of FT volunteer work and you have my life in just a nutshell.
And of all these things I am probably happiest that I did the teaching thingy just for a year. I enjoyed it while I did it and was even reasonably good at it, but long term I do not have the temperament for that kind of work (can you spell impatient? LOL)
Oh, you need to start that thread... list of all the titled you've held... that's a good one! Then worst and best.
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techguy
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Post by techguy on Jun 6, 2016 16:30:57 GMT -5
I know I don't have to be a carpenter to get into project management. I see it as a sort of alternative route. A long time ago I looked into the project management certification, and for construction almost all the jobs want you to have construction experience and/or an engineering degree. ... They are usually physically demanding jobs that take a toll on your body long term. .... Yeah, if I hire a female plumber, she better not ask me to carry the toilet out !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 16:51:54 GMT -5
Yeah, if I hire a female plumber, she better not ask me to carry the toilet out ! Totally agreed, and I'm female. At least in my office job there was never anything I had to ask a guy to do because I couldn't. If I went into a trade I'd make darn sure I got very good at something most people didn't like, so that they could do the heavy lifting but would be able to avoid something they didn't like doing in the X change.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2016 4:31:47 GMT -5
The only thing I have to say about female tradespeople is, don't be like the idiots my former next door neighbor hired who couldn't be bothered to call DigSafe and almost set themselves, and the house, on fire when they cut through some lines when excavating for a front porch. Dumbasses.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 12, 2016 21:11:08 GMT -5
I am very glad you survived and thrived; I respect your opinion and experiences. As someone who has dealt with various harassing situations, I think it makes sense to point out the risks to younger women who may not have considered all the implications. It's a lot different to deal with harassment in an office type setting than it is to deal with harassment in a setting with power tools and where much of your work happens in an inherently dangerous setting - like on a construction site. These are things that people who might not have done much construction work or who might not have experienced much harassment might not consider. Yeah, those loaded sidearms we were often wearing in that "office setting" were no danger at all. Were you an officer?
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 12, 2016 21:33:26 GMT -5
We are encouraging our 18 year-old daughter to explore more trades-based work instead of engineering. She doesn't persevere with mathematics, but she is quite skilled at building stuff and fixing stuff. Sexual harassment happens in all work places, so we'll have to work with her on dealing with that anyway.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 12, 2016 21:40:01 GMT -5
Yeah, those loaded sidearms we were often wearing in that "office setting" were no danger at all. Were you an officer? I was an NCO.
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