Venezuela

[Virgil Showlion]

Venezuela has "officially" entered the last leg of its collapse started four years ago, with hunger, looting, lawlessness, and hyperinflation gripping the nation.

ZH provides a summary:

Over the last several years we have documented with clockwork regularity Venezuela's collapse into failed state status, which was cemented several weeks ago when news hit that "Venezuela had officially run out of money to print new money." At that point the best one could do was merely to step back and watch as local society and civilization turned on itself, unleashing what would ultimately turn into Venezuela's own, sad apocalypse.

Last night we showed what Caracas, looks like this week:



...

According to Panampost, on Wednesday morning, a crowd sacked the Maracay Wholesale Market in the central region of Venezuela. According to the testimonies of merchants, the endless food lines that Venezuelans have been enduring to do groceries could not be organized that day.

As time went by, desperate Venezuelans grew anxious over not being able to buy food. Then they started jumping over the gates and stormed the supermarket.

"They took milk, pasta, flour, oil, and milk powder. There were 5,000 people" one witness told Venezuela outlet El Estímulo.

People from across the entire state came to the supermarket because there were rumors that some products not found anywhere else would be sold there.

As a result of the massive crowd, the authorities were unable to preserve the peace. "There were 250 people for each National Guard officer… lots of people and few soldiers. At least one officer was beat up because he tried to stop the crowd,” another source told El Estímulo.

Other food dispensaries run by the government were also looted by the people.

Far from the promised socialist paradise, as the massive group of people moved, an entrance gate collapsed under the weight of the crowd, leaving several wounded.

Take a good look. The very same is coming to the US, Canada, and the British Commonwealth nations, and sooner than you think. If you think it can't happen here, you're deceiving yourself.

[Deleted]

For a few hundred dollars you could have beans, rice, grains etc to tide you and your over for a few months.

[djAdvocate]

[Virgil Showlion]

May 13, 2016 19:50:35 GMT -5 @hickle said:

For a few hundred dollars you could have beans, rice, grains etc to tide you and your over for a few months.

You could. How many people do?

[Deleted]

May 14, 2016 1:42:30 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

May 13, 2016 19:50:35 GMT -5 @hickle said:

For a few hundred dollars you could have beans, rice, grains etc to tide you and your over for a few months.

You could. How many people do?

America is worried about who pees where. There is only so much room on the plate.

[Virgil Showlion]

May 14, 2016 20:06:45 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Because Venezuela and the United States are so much alike in every way.

The US has a couple of cash crops, one of them illegal, one natural resource, oil, that it doesn't have the expertise to pump with it's own companies.

One can argue (and it could be counter-argued) that the US is headed for an economic meltdown, but the comparison with Venezuela is not apropos. 

We famously differ in our views on the matter.

The comparison with Venezuela isn't to say the economic meltdown will occur in exactly the same way; it's to point out that many of the "escapes" people use to downplay the enormity of the event ("pensions will take a bit of a haircut; no big deal", "civil unrest will be duly contained; no big deal", "inflation will be limited to single digits; no big deal", "failing industries will be nationalized; no big deal") all applied to Venezuela but failed to be actual "escapes". It turns out that a little bit of hair cutting, civil unrest, inflation, nationalization, etc. go a long way in hastening the collapse of an economy.

Western nations are well into the phase of collapse where elected governments become corrupt and useless. On the US's part, your House of Representatives refuses to pass legislation, your Senate sold you out to the insurance companies with the PPACA, your executive branch is brazenly flouting the checks and balances intended to limit its power, and your central bank has taken on nearly 5 trillion in new liabilities in the past four years. The militarization of your police force took another huge leap in 2015 (for good reason). Governments have pushed through the TTP (TTIP, in Europe) in the shadows, and the public (including, by the way, much of government) isn't even allowed to see half of what's being imposed on the western world. I've written about many of the atrocities contained in that legislation in the past, but the fact that legislation "We the People" aren't even allowed to see is becoming law of the land is a dark milestone in and of itself.

I know it pleases you to dismiss the militarization of police forces, the surveillance state, runaway debt at all levels of government, corrupt politicians, a sclerotic legislature, failing foreign policy, unfunded liabilities, moral decay, and economic stagnation as "the way it's always been", and I doubt anything I can say would convince you otherwise, but there are a lot of YMAM readers whose minds are open to the idea that the world is very near a precipice.

[djAdvocate]

i will grant you this one: there has been a concerted effort by the far right neofascists to undermine Venezula's democracy for decades.  having finally won an election, the collapse followed almost breathlessly quickly:

www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/13-years-after-foiled-us-backed-coup-right-wing-opposition-wins-venezuela-election

if Trump wins, perhaps this fate awaits us, as well.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2016 13:36:03 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

We famously differ in our views on the matter

Virgil Showlion as you know, all human endeavors do end eventually- sooner or later. Hence our Empire too will fall.  The question is when, and yes we do differ on our thoughts here  (famously even, I guess ;~)  )

You really can't blame us for setting up the world order our way, after the Europeans and all you Commonwealth peoples dragged us twice into war to save Europe...... I am not happy about it, but hence we now have Pax Americana.  It is better than the Kaiser or 3R, but it certainly saps our real strength and as time goes on, our democracy as well. 

In the meantime, we do have our splendid array of natural resources, manufacturing might and relative geographic isolation to shield us from the worst of economic and military disaster.  I don't think we are going down the tubes this year, or even next.  On that, I guess we will have to differ.

What made and makes America great is its political ideas.  There are so many who want to throw away freedom of speech.  Look at university speech codes for examples of that.  Others who want to throw away freedom of religion, look at threads here for that.  The federal government is putting microphones under rocks in San Francisco just to get  whatever content it accidently picks up.  We toss freedoms away like so much trash.  Banks went bankrupt last time there was a financial meltdown only they didn't, they were propped up and rewarded for their failures.  Look at all the cities that want to ignore basic capitalistic thought and make $15 minimum wage.  Clinton has said she supports that as a federal minimum wage.  Politicians will drive away low wage jobs and push low wage workers to welfare.  Discount the monetary cost of that and just look at the social cost of taking away jobs.

If you dont want to look at Venezuela as an example look at what happened in Europe when they put authoriitarians in power.  There was a thread here the other day saying it is hubris to say a Supreme court ruling was unconstitutional.  We have to accept them as the authority and I guess shut our mouths.  That and much more screams to me that many of our fellow citizens want authoritarians in  charge.  They don't want to be responsible for handling risk. And give that and freedom up.

I am not really pessimistic, but I certainly see the case for it.

[Deleted]

Stockpile TP.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2016 6:34:33 GMT -5 @hickle said:

May 14, 2016 1:42:30 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

You could. How many people do?

America is worried about who pees where. There is only so much room on the plate.

Worried about toilet paper shortages also.

 I have room in here for many worries I guess.

[OldCoyote]

Venezuela is just the first that is going to fail, almost every country that is dependant on oil for their main source of income is at risk of failure.

Many governments are political in trouble, the price of oil just compounds it.

We can only have some many of these governments fail before it effects the entire world economy!

[Virgil Showlion]

May 16, 2016 6:47:47 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Yes, it is scary.  And, it was scary (er) in 1962.   It was scary (er) in 1942.  It was scary (er) in 1933.  And 1863.  And 1813.  And 1778.

America has survived and persisted by the Grace of God.

1962 was a singular existential threat (nuclear annihilation). The clock still stands at two minutes to midnight, BTW.

1942 doesn't qualify as an existential threat. Regardless, compare the morals, values, and patriotic spirit of that generation to those of millennials and the contrast is stark. "Ask not what your country can do for you..." is a defunct doctrine. The only reason Sen. Sanders is nipping as Ms. Clinton's heels in the Democratic race is because millennials don't care about anything but what their country can do for them.

1933 is a decent reference point. Bear in mind that back in 1933 more than 50% of Americans lived on farms, the standard of living was only a fraction as comfortable as it is today (and people were accustomed to a hardscrabble existence), the population was only a fraction of what it is now, families were larger and more closely knit, dependence on the government was practically non-existent, ownership of wealth and resources was less concentrated, and still Americans had a hell of a time pulling through. Do you honestly want to see how today's obese, sedentary, thoroughly government-dependent, untrained, unprepared, overmedicated, sexually diseased, Walmart-mobbing Occupy Wall Street crowd fare in the same circumstances? You're getting some early data from New Orleans, Detroit, Illinois, Ferguson, and I'm not seeing "Grapes of Wrath" values anywhere in there.

A third of your population died in the US Civil War. Again, the union persisted only by the Grace of God and the leadership of great statesmen that simply don't exist today.

The War of 1812 again wasn't an existential threat to the US.

I'm surprised you even mention the Revolutionary Wars, since men with revolutionary attitudes today (the Sovereign Citizens, Cliven Bundys, Alex Joneses, et al.) are almost universally reviled. It again goes to show that current generations are soft, decadent, entitled, ideologically adrift, and bereft of strong moral character.

The circumstances facing America now are unique. They're chronic. Most importantly, as America increasingly abhors God and what He stands for (and this goes for all the nations in the British Commonwealth as well), He'll withdraw His Grace and let us reap our just due, which is utter destruction. It's going to happen suddenly, and a lot sooner than most dare think. We're presently seeing the dominoes being set up one by one.

Do you think Ms. Clinton or Mr. Trump are going to take charge and right the ship? Do you think the US is going to come out of total apostasy? Do you think technology will save us? If so, you have even more faith in your beliefs than I do in mine, and that's saying something.

[Virgil Showlion]

We shall see, won't we?

[Virgil Showlion]

May 16, 2016 9:07:28 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

May 16, 2016 8:53:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

We shall see, won't we?

Indeed.

Don't you hope I'm right?

No.

If you're right, this is the best there is for humanity. We might as well give up and embrace Kurzweili post-humanism. It's pants-on-head crazy, but it at least offers a glimmer of hope.

Reasonable assessments by reasonable scientists only offer the dire, unavoidable conclusion that mankind isn't going to make it.

[billisonboard]

May 16, 2016 9:07:28 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

May 16, 2016 8:53:49 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

We shall see, won't we?

Indeed.

Don't you hope I'm right?

Considering that vengeful God he worships,I am thinking he doesn't.

[Tennesseer]

May 15, 2016 15:08:55 GMT -5 @xmascookie said:

Stockpile TP.

Grow giant elephant ear plants.

[Deleted]

May 16, 2016 10:13:02 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

May 16, 2016 9:07:28 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Indeed.

Don't you hope I'm right?

No.

If you're right, this is the best there is for humanity. We might as well give up and embrace Kurzweili post-humanism. It's pants-on-head crazy, but it at least offers a glimmer of hope.

Reasonable assessments by reasonable scientists only offer the dire, unavoidable conclusion that mankind isn't going to make it.

Calling Kurzweil's vision crazy: allowed

Calling your religion crazy: not allowed

Do I have that right?

[djAdvocate]

May 16, 2016 10:13:02 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

May 16, 2016 9:07:28 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Indeed.

Don't you hope I'm right?

No.

If you're right, this is the best there is for humanity. We might as well give up and embrace Kurzweili post-humanism. It's pants-on-head crazy, but it at least offers a glimmer of hope.

Reasonable assessments by reasonable scientists only offer the dire, unavoidable conclusion that mankind isn't going to make it.

you like aiming high, don't you?

[Virgil Showlion]

May 16, 2016 10:25:11 GMT -5 @aj said:

May 16, 2016 10:13:02 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

No.

If you're right, this is the best there is for humanity. We might as well give up and embrace Kurzweili post-humanism. It's pants-on-head crazy, but it at least offers a glimmer of hope.

Reasonable assessments by reasonable scientists only offer the dire, unavoidable conclusion that mankind isn't going to make it.

Calling Kurzweil's vision crazy: allowed

Calling your religion crazy: not allowed

Do I have that right?

People call my religion crazy all the time. Demin does it in Reply #15 above. Do you see me condemning him for it?

When have I ever advocated or implied that criticism of my religion shouldn't be allowed? I have over 20,000 posts on this message board. Find me one that meets your criteria.

[Virgil Showlion]

May 16, 2016 10:30:05 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 16, 2016 10:13:02 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

No.

If you're right, this is the best there is for humanity. We might as well give up and embrace Kurzweili post-humanism. It's pants-on-head crazy, but it at least offers a glimmer of hope.

Reasonable assessments by reasonable scientists only offer the dire, unavoidable conclusion that mankind isn't going to make it.

you like aiming high, don't you?

Certainly. I have hope. I'm not a nihilist or a misanthrope who thinks the destruction of man is no big loss to the universe.

[Deleted]

May 16, 2016 10:33:31 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

May 16, 2016 10:25:11 GMT -5 @aj said:

Calling Kurzweil's vision crazy: allowed

Calling your religion crazy: not allowed

Do I have that right?

People call my religion crazy all the time. Demin does it in Reply #15 above. Do you see me condemning him for it?

When have I ever advocated or implied that criticism of my religion shouldn't be allowed? I have over 20,000 posts on this message board. Find me one that meets your criteria.

I was under the understanding we had to keep the religious discussion and criticism of it in the religious forum, thanks for correcting me.

[Deleted]

May 16, 2016 8:30:02 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

May 16, 2016 7:51:16 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

America has survived and persisted by the Grace of God.
And I believe it has survived and thrived by the grace of strong and ambitious people, bountiful resources and climate and a favorable geographic position.  All of which continue to exist.

The circumstances facing America now are unique. They're chronic. Most importantly, as America increasingly abhors God and what He stands for (and this goes for all the nations in the British Commonwealth as well), He'll withdraw His Grace and let us reap our just due, which is utter destruction. It's going to happen suddenly, and a lot sooner than most dare think. We're presently seeing the dominoes being set up one by one. 
Well, surely you know that I don't believe a word of that, beginning with the first word of the third sentence.  To me that is nonsensical foolishness.  One might as well dance to the clouds hoping for rain.  And by the way, I am a minority in my own land.  Most of my fellow citizens do apparently believe that poppycock.

Do you think Ms. Clinton or Mr. Trump are going to take charge and right the ship? Do you think the US is going to come out of total apostasy? Do you think technology will save us? If so, you have even more faith in your beliefs than I do in mine, and that's saying something.

I think Secretary Clinton will provide competent, stable, and capable leadership, but no, I don't think that she has the qualities needed to overcome the political scleroses of our time.  I think sometimes only the "right" crisis will provide that.  Congress is usually sclerotic until compelled to do the right thing.  It is by design.

I think crisis bring out both the best and worst in people, but often times the best.  Which is why in trying times we see, time and again, visionary and brave people step up to the plate. And not just leaders- all manner of people.  Notice I wrote people: not men sitting on white clouds.

I think technology may doom us rather than save us.  I am getting older, and perhaps losing my confidence in the ability of all change to bring us forward. (read: Future Shock)  But I also think that is my own myopic viewpoint, and I try to keep that in perspective.

If this post was not an all out statement on ones religion and then someone responding calling it foolish I don't know what is.

I just didn't think that was allowed outside the religious forum as part of forum policy. I would of responded as you did Dem, I just didn't know I could.

[Virgil Showlion]

May 16, 2016 12:09:50 GMT -5 @aj said:

May 16, 2016 8:30:02 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I think Secretary Clinton will provide competent, stable, and capable leadership, but no, I don't think that she has the qualities needed to overcome the political scleroses of our time.  I think sometimes only the "right" crisis will provide that.  Congress is usually sclerotic until compelled to do the right thing.  It is by design.

I think crisis bring out both the best and worst in people, but often times the best.  Which is why in trying times we see, time and again, visionary and brave people step up to the plate. And not just leaders- all manner of people.  Notice I wrote people: not men sitting on white clouds.

I think technology may doom us rather than save us.  I am getting older, and perhaps losing my confidence in the ability of all change to bring us forward. (read: Future Shock)  But I also think that is my own myopic viewpoint, and I try to keep that in perspective.

If this post was not an all out statement on ones religion and then someone responding calling it foolish I don't know what is.

I just didn't think that was allowed outside the religious forum as part of forum policy. I would of responded as you did Dem, I just didn't know I could.

You make a valid point.

I'll move this thread to RD since it headed in that direction.

[Virgil Showlion]

@aj: We have enough little digs at religion and various ethical philosophies here and there that, generally speaking, if religious beliefs, precepts, etc. are raised/criticized in one or two posts in a way that's germane to the topic at hand, and don't develop into an arc, I don't wave the mod stick.

I heeded your warning in this case since the topic had, arguably, developed into an arc rather than just a few isolated posts.

Religion, ethics, and the associated dogma of both are brought up frequently on P/CE as part of the natural flow of discussion. As a rule of thumb, you can mention religion offhandedly, even criticize it, but be wary of saying things you believe will inspire others to respond in the same arc. If religion becomes the topic of conversation for any length of time, the discussion either has to be truncated, or else the thread moved to RD, which I did in this case to demonstrate that we (the mods) aren't exempt from the rules. Ultimately what admin wants to avoid is flame wars where people get their feelings hurt.

[Deleted]

No problem Virgil, I respect both you and Dem.

[Deleted]

Thing come here to die, not be resurrected.

[Tennesseer]

May 16, 2016 16:43:43 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Thing come here to die, not be resurrected.

Unique choice of word on a religious board: resurrected.

[mmhmm]

May 16, 2016 16:43:43 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Thing come here to die, not be resurrected.

That's up to you, as a poster. It's the posters who keep threads alive and interesting, not where those threads are placed. If there is interest in the subject matter, posters will participate. If, on the other hand, posters decide they're not going to participate because of where the thread is placed, the outcome for the thread is quite predictable.