GPA as hiring criteria

[Sam_2.0]

Our HOA posted that they are hiring lifeguards. At least 16+, passed the lifeguard exam (both I can agree with), and need to have a 3.0+ GPA. The GPA requirement seems sketchy at best, and could be considered discriminatory & illegal I believe. Am I wrong? They aren't happy that I questioned that requirement on their post in our neighborhood site.

[sarcasticgirl]

I don't think it is illegal or discriminatory- I remember being asked my GPA a lot when I was in HS.  
I don't see much difference in an employer checking your education credentials as an adult. 

[ArchietheDragon]

soon sloth and lack of intelligence will be protected classes, but not yet. 

[alabamagal]

To some extent gpa in high school is an indicator that you showed up and paid attention.  Which are important criteria for a life guard.  But I am sure there are many kids who have lower gpas who would also do well.

My nephew is currently in training to be a paramedic/firefighter.  He had a pretty low gpa in high school mainly due to lack of motivation.  I am sure he will make a great firefighter.

My DS always had good grades in school but would be a TERRIBLE lifeguard due to ADD.  One time when I had a conference with this 4th grade teachers, after hearing about all his problems (lack of preparedness, doesn't pay attention, can't follow directions) she said that she thought a good occupation for him when he grew up would be a firefighter.  Her DH was a firefighter, so I didn't want to insult her, but I asked her "If your house was on fire and a truck with my son pulls up, would you feel good when he looked at your house and he said 'Oh I forgot the hose' " /

[imawino]

Apr 14, 2016 14:52:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

soon sloth and lack of intelligence will be protected classes, but not yet. 

LOL. That's what I was thinking. Bad grades is not a protected class.

They are looking at a potential pool of candidates who have no job experience, I can see them needing to have some criteria in place to winnow the field a bit. I don't see anything wrong with it being GPA. I would assume that there is some correlation between grades and effort for most people.

[sarcasticgirl]

Apr 14, 2016 14:52:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

soon sloth and lack of intelligence will be protected classes, but not yet. 

SOMEDAY IT WILL BE *crosses fingers* and then I'm letting myself go to hell. 

[WholeLottaNothin]

It took me a minute to realize what GPA stood for when I read the title to this thread...so I guess I'm out

[WholeLottaNothin]

They can always contact your state dept of labor business services office for the appropriate way to word things. I've had businesses ask for things in postings that were questionable at best.

[Sam_2.0]

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

[Miss Tequila]

Apr 14, 2016 14:40:19 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Our HOA posted that they are hiring lifeguards. At least 16+, passed the lifeguard exam (both I can agree with), and need to have a 3.0+ GPA. The GPA requirement seems sketchy at best, and could be considered discriminatory & illegal I believe. Am I wrong? They aren't happy that I questioned that requirement on their post in our neighborhood site.

Why would it be discriminatory or illegal? I am pretty sure slackers isn't a protected class...but like Archie said, given the state of our country it very well may be soon!

When I worked at my firm we wouldn't even look at a candidate with a GPA 3.5 and we really targeted those 3.75 and above. Given that we were very clear with the colleges not to send us candidates not fitting that criteria and the fact that we never had any backlash tells me that what we were doing wasn't discriminatory or illegal.

[greeniis10]

Apr 14, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

I agree with you because this job already requires the certification.

Also, are they going to require ongoing proof in order to keep the job? What if they drop below the require GPA? Fire them? That seems like a mess waiting to happen.

[imawino]

Apr 14, 2016 15:32:29 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

Apr 14, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

I agree with you because this job already requires the certification.

Also, are they going to require ongoing proof in order to keep the job? What if they drop below the require GPA? Fire them? That seems like a mess waiting to happen.

It's probably a summer job.  Your high school GPA tends to not change over the summer.

[imawino]

I think my first job out of college they wanted to know my GPA. I really think this is a non-issue. If someone feels as though they have a legitimate reason that their lower GPA should be treated as a higher GPA, I would assume they are free to submit some sort of statement explaining their particular learning disability and why they need special consideration.

[Sam_2.0]

I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised that YM would say low GPA = slackers

Seems like the kids with the lower GPA are exactly the ones who need these entry-level jobs. They aren't going to college, and now they can't even get a summer job?

[sarcasticgirl]

Apr 14, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

every job posting I see is fulling unnecessary criteria with which to judge. doesn't mean is it discriminatory or illegal. 

it really isn't different than using a college GPA- even though you have the degree or special certifications, they can still use the GPA.

[tskeeter]

Apr 14, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

For many kids, a good gpa demonstrates that they probably have a lot of attributes desirable in an employee.  


They are are used to having and meeting expectations.  So they have some self discipline.

They are capable of meeting deadlines.  So they will probably be at work when they are supposed to and they will probably be on time.

They have demonstrated some ability to manage priorities, so they are less likely to be flirting with the opposite sex while your child drowns.

They are smart kids, so they quickly figure out important job requirements and priorities without having to be told each and every nuance of the job.  Ever work with someone who has to be told in great detail how to do each and every task that is part of a job?  And dealt with them when something minor has changed?  Smart folks are usually easier to manage.

[Miss Tequila]

Apr 14, 2016 15:46:41 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised that YM would say low GPA = slackers

Seems like the kids with the lower GPA are exactly the ones who need these entry-level jobs. They aren't going to college, and now they can't even get a summer job?

All teens need entry-level jobs for the summer.

[Sam_2.0]

Thought this was interesting: www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140318134054-330470-using-gpa-as-hiring-criteria-maybe-you-shouldn-t

I know a lot of "smart" people that didn't have great GPAs. It's a measure of how well you can fill in bubbles on the test, not necessarily indicative of character or intelligence.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

::DQ tries to figure out of her 3.2 GPA in high school means she's stupid:::

[sarcasticgirl]

Apr 14, 2016 15:57:38 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Thought this was interesting: www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140318134054-330470-using-gpa-as-hiring-criteria-maybe-you-shouldn-t

I know a lot of "smart" people that didn't have great GPAs. It's a measure of how well you can fill in bubbles on the test, not necessarily indicative of character or intelligence.

I know a lot of people without college degrees who are smarter than people with degrees. I know people with graduate degrees who are rather unintelligent. 

A degree isn't always indicative of character or intelligence, but it certainly is one of the first things employers use to weed out candidates. 

[mroped]

What good would be a 4.0 GPA if he/she is a crappy swimmer or collapses under pressure when first aid is needed?
To me a lifeguard should be someone that can think and act quickly on a situation and I don't realy care if they don't know the 7th decimal of pi!

Requiring a GPA higher than 3.0 may not be discriminatory from a legal stand point but doesn't that limit the chances for those that are not as gifted intellectually?
And more to the point: Einstein was kicked out of school for being dumb/stupid/retarded!
Imagine that!

[giramomma]

Apr 14, 2016 15:56:23 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

All teens need entry-level jobs for the summer.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

One of my old clients did college level research at one of the top public schools in the country the summer between her Junior and senior year of high school. She was also groomed on presenting posters at conferences. She put in 40 hour weeks during the summer.

She also was a National Merit Scholarship semi-finalist. I don't know if she won a scholarship or not.

I really can't imagine her mom saying "No, no honey, don't do the research at the college. You need to find an entry level job this summer."

I have to say, if my kids were that bright/smart/driven and earned that sort of opportunity, I wouldn't ask them to give it up in favor of entry level work, either.

[Deleted]

Considering GPA includes p.e. classes and everything else (at my school) including study strategies, which is a teacher-led study hall, yearbook,and teacher's aide, I don't think a 3.0 is unreasonable. 

Do I want someone who follows the rules and does what he/she is supposed to do as a life guard?  You bet.  It isn't enough to know how to swim.  It isn't even enough to pass the certification test.  It is knowing how to apply knowledge and use good judgment in difficult situations.  That isn't entirely book knowledge, but neither are these qualities that I associate with my students who are barely getting by. 

I'm not talking about students who make a C in English.  That's one subject.  But with three electives to balance four core subjects, I wouldn't call an overall 3.0 that difficult to achieve. 

Students with learning disabilities don't necessarily make bad grades.  In fact, with the proper accommodations, they frequently make better grades than other students who don't have disabilities.  So I wouldn't use the GPA requirement to defend students with learning disabilities.

[Tiny]

Apr 14, 2016 15:25:58 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

As they already have to pass the life guard certification, I don't see how GPA is demonstrating skills necessary for the job. At worst it could be discriminatory against a kid with learning disabilities and a low GPA. Seems like they are using an unnecessary criteria to judge with.

I think it's because GPA can indicate how dedicated someone is and maybe what kind of 'life skills' they have acquired and use successfully.  A high GPA can indicate that the kid will show up (even if they don't want to), and won't screw around the entire time they are at work (not watch videos on their phone or take 2 hour breaks), and that they might be able to (and willing to) follow orders/the rules.

Yeah, some loser kids skate thru school and get outrageously high GPA's even though they drink/get high every weekend and rarely go to class and never do homework or turn in projects on time...  but I suspect those kids are few and far between.  Just as some good kids who are always on time, never miss a day of school, turn in all their homework/projects on time, study hard  only manage to pull a mediocre GPA - but I suspect those kids are few and far between as well.

For the majority of kids - looking at GPA WILL tell you something about their personal habits...

[kittensaver]

There are no laws in this country forbidding discrimination based on grade point average.

Employers are allowed to screen and/or hire on any criteria they like except for criteria that is discriminatory (as defined by law) [or in some complex and highly technical cases, a criteria that would create "disparate impact" on a select group.] GPA is not a criteria protected from discriminatory practices.

If I'm hiring kids for their first job, I would want to know that they have some kind of smarts or a decent head on their shoulders. How well they do in school seems like a good marker of that. If you can be disciplined in school, you are more likely to be disciplined on the job.

OF COURSE there are always exceptions, but as an employer I need to start somewhere, right?

[Tiny]

Apr 14, 2016 16:01:39 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

Apr 14, 2016 15:57:38 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Thought this was interesting: www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140318134054-330470-using-gpa-as-hiring-criteria-maybe-you-shouldn-t

I know a lot of "smart" people that didn't have great GPAs. It's a measure of how well you can fill in bubbles on the test, not necessarily indicative of character or intelligence.

I know a lot of people without college degrees who are smarter than people with degrees. I know people with graduate degrees who are rather unintelligent. 

A degree isn't always indicative of character or intelligence, but it certainly is one of the first things employers use to weed out candidates. 

The thing is - the job is aimed at 16 year old kids... not actual adults.    If I was hiring a 16 yo that didn't have any job experience - I'd have to rely on their achievements at school to tell me if I could trust to the kid to show up for work when scheduled, to follow the rules, and to do the work assigned to them.      

I don't really want a hung over/exhausted 16 yo showing up for work on Saturday morning - because they stayed out Friday night...  or worse I dont' want them 'calling in sick' on Saturday morning because they partied too hard on Friday nite.    I also don't want to have to deal with a kid who accepts the job and then keeps calling in 'sick' or is unable to work their social life around their work hours - especially when they knew the job would entail the hours they are being asked to work.

(I've got nieces/nephews who had trouble keeping a job because they'd take a job - show up for a couple of weeks and then start 'missing' work because they had other things to do... and yeah, none of them were stellar students.)

 

[Miss Tequila]

Im a prime example of what tiny is talking about. In high school I was a huge partier. i barely passed because I was too busy partying. I also had no qualms about calling off work or just quitting because work interfered with something I wanted to do (jobs weren't that hard to get when I was a teen).

I am not stupid but didn't care about resonaibility when I was 16. Counter that with the bookworms that stayed home and studied so they made sure they got their 4.0 and never missed a day of school because they wanted that perfect attendance award. Take a guess who was a better employee? So yes, I do think that gpa can tell a good story about a teen

Kids grow up so 44 year old Tina is nothing like 16 year old Tina but I wouldn't have hired 16 year old me if I was the onlu available person.

[Deleted]

Apr 14, 2016 16:27:21 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

It's an odd thing to use past a certain point. By focusing so much on GPA it disincentivizes challenging yourself. It's well known that some majors/classes grade far easier than others. Between schools there are major differences as well , which is why colleges use software that tracks individual schools when deciding admissions.

In high school, the harder classes (AP, IB, Dual Enrollment) usually have a grade incentive attached. A B in my Dual Enrollment class is a 3.5 whereas a B in English 11 is a 3.0.  A B in AP/IB is the same as an A (4.0).

In fact, many of those colleges use software that throw out the weighted grade when deciding admission because so many kids have 4.5s, etc. 

[wvugurl26]

I'm guessing they get a lot of applications so they picked something to screen by. Kids with a higher GPA tend to have certain traits that they might want. And kids with lower GPAs can have them too. It would have never bothered me. If my GPA was below 3.0, I would have had bigger problems besides trying to get a job.

[Tiny]

The thing about ADD/ADHD is that sometimes it keeps you from blocking all the information that's coming into your head.   you know all the stuff that 'normal' people's brains  tune out (or stop seeing)... (google the Invisible Gorilla test)  

So, maybe a Lifeguard (and other occupations)  with ADD/ADHD  would be better at spotting a problem... especially if the person had some coping skills (ways to deal with the ADD/ADHD so they COULD get thru a typical day successfully).  

Sometimes NOT seeing the world the way everyone else does is very powerful.