Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 1, 2016 13:59:39 GMT -5
I think this is a pretty easy argument to deal with. I don't know why you think you have to slam anyone's culture or why you would let new SIL imply you had to accept his culture's ways in your house. Your house, your culture, his home - his culture. Simple.
Just tell him you are looking forward to seeing how his culture's hospitality works when you pop in unannounced for a several day stay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2016 14:00:22 GMT -5
Well, just because it's what it's like in his culture/family, doesn't mean it's what's acceptable for YOU. You get to make your own rules for your house. Myself personally, not only do I not normally host to family (my kids are still young), but when I go visit (announced), I don't spend the night unless almost strong-armed into doing so by the homeowner. I would prefer to drive home even if late and a long drive or stay in a hotel. I'm more comfortable and I feel better not putting someone out.
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quince
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Post by quince on Apr 1, 2016 14:07:57 GMT -5
At some point you stop being a victim and start being a volunteer. Put your foot down. Even if it WAS cultural, it doesn't matter! Your household rules are primary in your house!
If they have all the leverage because you miss your daughter and will do anything to make sure she's not mad at you, you're stuck. It's not going to change. There is no incentive for it to change.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 1, 2016 14:26:21 GMT -5
Just that was what DSIL always says to me when i ask...'it's just how it is in my culture'.
Next time respond "Great they can stay at YOUR house then since you're not using it right now seeing as you're at mine".
He has you trained. He knows that to get his way all he has to do is hint at the possibility you might "offend" someone and you'll jump.
Who the F cares if they are offended?! They sure don't seem to care who they offend/piss off.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Apr 1, 2016 15:31:10 GMT -5
My family has a bit of a different tack when it comes to staying with family. We're all pretty upfront about inviting ourselves, but we all understand and no hard feelings if the answer is no. In fact last year when I was going to be driving through my uncle's city as the mid point of a two day drive, this was the conversation. Me: Hey Uncle, how's it going <insert small talk here> Him: Going well... <catching up stories> Me: Hey we are going to be driving from A to B in a couple of months. Our drive takes us through your city. In fine family tradition I'm calling to ask if I can stay overnight at your place... keep in mind family tradition also means you can say no without guilt or hard feelings on my part Him: Sure sounds great... what are the plans Truthfully I would have been fine if he'd have said no or we're busy or whatever. This is how it works in our family. I would never show up at anyone's home without contacting them first via phone or email. No one has ever done that to us either.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Apr 1, 2016 16:13:15 GMT -5
Well,
I married into a Hispanic family. DH's family is mostly pretty stable and almost all of his brothers married "white" girls. Even my MIL doesn't let everyone who wants to stay at her house.
Her sister called last summer with 1 day notice and said they would be arriving at Mitchell Field (Milwaukee) the next day. MIL and FIL were in Georgia when they got the call. They were on their way back. DH picked up his 2 aunts from the airport and his parents were back home by the time the arrived. I could never have whipped my house into 'visitor clean' shape by the time they arrived. MIL is a clean freak, so it was fine for her. There are people even my MIL will avoid being home to, b/c they expect to stay at her house and she frequently has stuff go missing. DH's cousin will come with his BIL and MIL and then my MIL has stuff missing (not really expensive stuff, just annoying stuff like the new tube of toothpaste she bought or a hand crocheted doily set etc.
DH's Aunt's SIL came from California and she never offered them a place to stay, so rather than put them up at our house DH booked them in at a local hotel for the week and paid the tab. Then when they decided to visit relatives in Chicago, he sent them on their way with the new GPS I bought for him and paid extra for Maps of Mexico. GRR.
We once paid for airline tickets for 2 of DH's cousins to visit from California. They were 14 and 18. We then spent the week taking them places like and air show, Summerfest, the Museum and the Milwaukee County Zoo. I gave them some spending cash too.
Shortly after that, we visited California, DH called his Uncle and said we were there for the weekend. His Uncle invited us the next day. When we arrived it was a huge party - nearly every relative he had in California (quite a lot) and tons of food. I always say it was like they killed the fatted calf. I kind of felt they heard some good stories about how the nieces and nephew were treated in Wisconsin.
Oh, and in my 1st house I had a room in my house I called M's bedroom (DH's college roommate). He lives in Chicago, and used to come party in Milwaukee. DH would go drinking with his college friends and bring him home with him. The day I brought DS home from the hospital said friend was in town. DH dropped me off at home and went out with his friends. All this is now pretty much amusing to me. DH and I are married 23 years these friends have been through thick and thin with us, and I do consider them family. If we ever need financial assistance they will be there for us not his brothers.
Oh, and when you asked about culture - I was thinking about my in-laws and their first house. MIL was living in a polish flat underneath her MIL. Her SIL and BIL lived in the 2nd floor apartment. As soon as BIL went to work, SIL would park her but at MIL's house and eat her food and do nothing all day. My DH's grandmother expected my MIL to help her all the time. MIL got fed up and borrowed $$ from nearly everyone they knew to put a down payment on a house. Inlaws bought a bungalow with an unfinished upstairs and a basement "polish flat". DH says when he was growing up they always had "boarders" and many of the boarders were those people that helped my in-laws put the down payment on the house. These are some of the people that drop in on my MIL unexpectedly now, many of the, do not even live in WI anymore. When DH's Grandmother was sick and in the hospital before she died, she did not want anyone to care for he but my MIL (including her own 2 daughters). We love both DH's aunts, it is nothing against them, my MIL is just an especially good caregiver.
I wondered if your DD has been treated to some really good hospitality by her DH's family and that may be why she wants you to reciprocate?
I think Shenandoah's list is very good. We have consistently coached my MIL on boundaries and she is pretty good about standing up for herself now. If we had never told her to say no and that some people's expectations were unreasonable I really think some people would walk all over her (especially in the child care area).
Do you live in Chicago Lisa? I thought you were in a more rural area.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 1, 2016 16:15:42 GMT -5
Part of what you may be struggling with are the harsh words; you probably don't want to use harsh, loaded language especially with your daughter that you have been missing. Ignore any harsh phrasing in some of the posts for a minute, because you don't have to use the harsh language.
I have this friend who is a master at things like this. She could deliver very tough messages without the recipient being offended. The recipient may not have agreed with the message but there weren't personal hard feelings when she was done. Very wonderful skill. From watching her for a while it appears that her secrets are:
1) Your demeanor, tone and overall language are important. You may be mad and think this person is being very rude, but your outward appearance shouldn't show that. If you can keep your attitude friendly, the other person doesn't feel personally attacked or judged so you avoid that whole issue.
2) Start with how much you care about that person and want good things for them. Then state what you can do to help them (and that may only be providing a list of hotels). Then close with again letting them know how much you care about them. The good news/bad news/good news sandwich.
3) Don't use excuses or soften your boundaries but also don't elaborate or debate. Be friendly, calm and brief in both the initial talk and in replies.
Here's an example of how this might play out in your situation. Assume DD2 and her husband show up unannounced and expect to spend the night.
You: (Give them big hugs.) I'm so glad to see you! What a surprise! I wish I knew you were coming so I could make you more comfy. You're welcome to stay; I have an air mattress you can blow up for the living room. Can I make you a drink?
DD2: We don't want to stay on an air mattress in the living room. We're adults! Little sis can sleep on the air mattress and we'll take her room.
You: If you'll give me a few days' notice next time, I can probably figure out how to move sis so you can have a room. But for now, the air mattress in the living room is what we can offer.
DD2: That's ridiculous! She's only 9, why does she get a room and we don't? You don't love us as much and you're going to make my husband uncomfortable.
You: I love you more than anything! I love you so much I'm going to let you sleep here even though you showed up with no notice and it's not a convenient time for me. So next time, if you give me a few days' notice, it will work best for all of us and I can have time to rearrange things and make you comfy. For tonight, though, let's go ahead and get that air mattress set up in the living room.
Rinse and repeat. Always kindly and lovingly even if DD and husband are acting like jerks.
OMG what I would give to have that skill!!!!
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Apr 1, 2016 16:50:28 GMT -5
resolution is correct...this isn't the first time they've done this....though they seem to think this is different because what i objected to before was his mother/nephews/cousins....this is his sister and that makes it an entire new ball of wax in DSIL's eyes....he 'understands' i don't want 'large groups'...and per both DD and DSIL i did give his sister an invite...which i did...for christmas...not an open door...they are forgetting that little detail... the baby (DD3) said to his face last night 'but they aren't family'..which he gave her a look and was like yes they are...it was amusing i did go to bed after giving it some more thought ....am told DSIL heard them and let them in. they are currently out and about for now... told they are bringing lunch back...i pointed out to DD2 that it wasn't so much his sister(of his family she is the best of the lot) it was the young man with her who i don't know from adam....i'm being told they came here to escape his mother for a few days. i don't want to slam anybody's culture....just that was what DSIL always says to me when i ask... 'it's just how it is in my culture'...that they are just much more welcoming and open...that i haven't seen with his family but maybe the opening is just with other peoples possessions... My borderline abusive ex used to say things like that. It wasn't his culture, he was just an awful person. I think it's pathetic to use your culture as an excuse for behavior that is obviously over the line. Don't be a doormat! This guy's whole family sounds nuts.
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Apr 1, 2016 17:09:52 GMT -5
I'm hispanic and this is flat out rude. We usually show up unannounced for a "visit" not an overnight stay!!! Let alone bring other people.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2016 18:13:04 GMT -5
Part of what you may be struggling with are the harsh words; you probably don't want to use harsh, loaded language especially with your daughter that you have been missing. Ignore any harsh phrasing in some of the posts for a minute, because you don't have to use the harsh language.
I have this friend who is a master at things like this. She could deliver very tough messages without the recipient being offended. The recipient may not have agreed with the message but there weren't personal hard feelings when she was done. Very wonderful skill. From watching her for a while it appears that her secrets are:
1) Your demeanor, tone and overall language are important. You may be mad and think this person is being very rude, but your outward appearance shouldn't show that. If you can keep your attitude friendly, the other person doesn't feel personally attacked or judged so you avoid that whole issue.
2) Start with how much you care about that person and want good things for them. Then state what you can do to help them (and that may only be providing a list of hotels). Then close with again letting them know how much you care about them. The good news/bad news/good news sandwich.
3) Don't use excuses or soften your boundaries but also don't elaborate or debate. Be friendly, calm and brief in both the initial talk and in replies.
Here's an example of how this might play out in your situation. Assume DD2 and her husband show up unannounced and expect to spend the night.
You: (Give them big hugs.) I'm so glad to see you! What a surprise! I wish I knew you were coming so I could make you more comfy. You're welcome to stay; I have an air mattress you can blow up for the living room. Can I make you a drink?
DD2: We don't want to stay on an air mattress in the living room. We're adults! Little sis can sleep on the air mattress and we'll take her room.
You: If you'll give me a few days' notice next time, I can probably figure out how to move sis so you can have a room. But for now, the air mattress in the living room is what we can offer.
DD2: That's ridiculous! She's only 9, why does she get a room and we don't? You don't love us as much and you're going to make my husband uncomfortable.
You: I love you more than anything! I love you so much I'm going to let you sleep here even though you showed up with no notice and it's not a convenient time for me. So next time, if you give me a few days' notice, it will work best for all of us and I can have time to rearrange things and make you comfy. For tonight, though, let's go ahead and get that air mattress set up in the living room.
Rinse and repeat. Always kindly and lovingly even if DD and husband are acting like jerks.
OMG what I would give to have that skill!!!! Me, too. That's why I observe her very closely... like a freshly discovered and fascinating new species.
The best one ever was when she (I'll call her "L") was Captain of a large racing sailing league and one of the members (call her "S") was continuously displaying very poor sportsmanship - yelling profanity at others on the course, being out of control and hitting other boats, arguing with race officials. As the Captain, my friend L had to have several talks with S about behavior. Never an easy topic with adults and especially difficult with people as crazy, aggressive and rude as S was. But L handled the talks very tactfully. After a few outrageous incidents, the group's leadership decided to kick S out which was something that had never been done before. L was the one to deliver the news and she handled it diplomatically, even though it was an awful job and S spent the first 20 minutes of the meeting yelling and swearing. But L never got ruffled and by the end S wasn't happy with the outcome, but was calm, understood the decision was final and ended up parting without personally disliking L.
The funny part came a few months later when we were giving out annual awards. One of the perpetual awards is called the "Turkey", given to someone who's done something interesting/awful that year. It's this horrible old rubber chicken that's totally filthy and has all sorts of weird stuff stuck to it because everybody who gets it has to add something. Anyway, we realized that S had been the recipient of the Turkey the last year and still had it, so we needed it back for this year's awards. I will never know how L managed to handle that particular conversation ("Hi, sorry we kicked you out but could we please have our rubber chicken back?") but S returned the Turkey. L is a scary genius with people management. If I had been Captain that year, we would have just bought a new rubber chicken and moved on with our lives.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 2, 2016 16:49:48 GMT -5
I used to work with someone who displayed a similar talent. He was a manager who often had to moderate group discussions/requirements sessions. When someone would volunteer a ridiculous, ill conceived, impractical idea, he had a talent for making that person feel like they'd made the most valuable contribution.
Besides the traits outlined above (a positive professional demeanor and use of skillful complimenting), he would entrust the volunteer with all the work necessary to bring about the change.
After a while, some of us got tuned in to it and we'd just laugh when he was trying it on us. But it is an art and he was good at it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 15:37:53 GMT -5
I am confused. Why can't you say no? I come from a culture that is hospitable. But nobody ever shows up without notice to stay overnight, visit even at dinner time, yes but no overnights (at least not intentionally). Why are you treating your DD3 like she doesn't matter when DD2 and her in-laws run your house?
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wmpeon
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Post by wmpeon on Apr 3, 2016 16:06:36 GMT -5
So did SIL + guest find another place to stay the 2nd night, or were presumptions made they were going to stay longer?
You're way past the point of clarifying the phrase "you're welcome anytime". It means they're welcome for a visit and they're expected to provide notice. It does not mean someone can expect to stay overnight, unless you first invite them to do so, and they are expected to make due with available couch/floor/etc because your household will not be displaced for guests.
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lisamomof4
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Post by lisamomof4 on Apr 3, 2016 16:50:07 GMT -5
so 'update'...i had a rather difficult and at times painful talk with DD2. covered a great deal of ground and tried to hit some of the very clear points you all made...and i agreed with. i have a deep-seated fear of loosing my kids...which is where the conflicted message was coming from (i don't ever want them to think they can't come home) but i'd made the mistake of assuming the limits of that were clear. that's been cleared up and i guess will see how it goes into the future. i am not the free hotel simply because it turns out my SIL felt it was the most convenient for him...told DD2 he was going to have to work on his attitude of 'me first'...gently said in the best non-confrontational style i could manage. DD3 is back in her room while they are staying...if he was fine with his sister there he can be fine with hers. his sister and her companion showed up last night to finally say thankyou....i get the wanting the family to be one group...i think that would be nice, it however will take time and effort on BOTH parts not just us doing what his family wants...and honestly that includes only his sister. who i honestly don't understand why she would want to stay at my home when/if she makes the money she brags she does...(other than the first night the sister went to hotel)
i even stood up for myself today and declined their 'request' for dinner as i would have had to go to the store to do it and i'm not doing that today(sundays are insane at the grocery) DD2 made a snarky comment that they don't come to visit often and it's what they would like...i had said i would do it for dinner yesterday as i was at the store then...only that didn't work for them at the time...so told her she was out of luck this time...
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 3, 2016 17:24:04 GMT -5
Glad you were able to talk about your boundaries and hope that helps the situation.
Just a thought, but you might want to think about keeping talks about you and what you need rather than making comments or judgments about your son in law. He very well may be a selfish jerk, but you won't win any points with DD by talking about that with her. Let her come to those conclusions on her own. If you just focus on what you can do (and what you can do sounds pretty reasonable), it will be easier for her to digest and remember plus you're not at risk of being critical of her husband.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 3, 2016 19:57:51 GMT -5
LOL! And I was told it can ONLY happen in Earope. Never ever in USA people come like that...so? Rude people are born all over the Earth? Sorry
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lisamomof4
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Post by lisamomof4 on Apr 3, 2016 20:21:35 GMT -5
true, very true...DSIL has many good qualities....and i hope i've made it clear to DD2 i'm aware of that...and them??....his tendency to think DH and i have money is something that most times we find amusing...as DH has said it's nice that someone does...lol...DSIL did his growing into an adult in the USMC...and he tends to approach most things from that direction
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 4, 2016 8:26:43 GMT -5
DD2 made a snarky comment that they don't come to visit often and it's what they would like...
Tell her the store is down the road, she can go buy groceries and cook them herself.
OR she can stay at a hotel where she can get room service at the push of a button.
I want to say I get the fear of "losing your kids" but with her attitude why on earth do you WANT her to visit? She sounds extremely rude and disrespectful.
I don't care how old my kids get they aren't going to show up on my doorstep and treat me like crap. You're free to leave until your attitude improves and take your mooching in laws with you.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Apr 4, 2016 9:16:05 GMT -5
i even stood up for myself today and declined their 'request' for dinner as i would have had to go to the store to do it and i'm not doing that today(sundays are insane at the grocery) DD2 made a snarky comment that they don't come to visit often and it's what they would like...i had said i would do it for dinner yesterday as i was at the store then...only that didn't work for them at the time...so told her she was out of luck this time... Hopefully you are not the host for an unplanned visit again, but a comment like the one I bolded is a very good opportunity to reiterate that a SCHEDULED visit would benefit you all and DD2 would be more likely to receive her requested dinner.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 9:20:17 GMT -5
i even stood up for myself today and declined their 'request' for dinner as i would have had to go to the store to do it and i'm not doing that today(sundays are insane at the grocery) DD2 made a snarky comment that they don't come to visit often and it's what they would like...i had said i would do it for dinner yesterday as i was at the store then...only that didn't work for them at the time...so told her she was out of luck this time... Hopefully you are not the host for an unplanned visit again, but a comment like the one I bolded is a very good opportunity to reiterate that a SCHEDULED visit would benefit you all and DD2 would be more likely to receive her requested dinner. Yeah, that popped out at me too. If you hardly ever drop in to visit Mom, you'd think calling ahead and making plans for the times you do would be even more important.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 4, 2016 9:37:02 GMT -5
I guess I'm just totally flabbergasted about the entitlement of DD2. I can't imagine just showing up at my parent's home and expecting them to drop their life to host me.
In fact, the last decade or so, when I have visited my parents, it has been to help them as much as possible. The last few visits (scheduled) we took over all cooking and shopping for meals, giving my folks a chance to enjoy the holiday without needing to spend the day in the kitchen.
ETA: While we have stayed with them, we have also stayed in a hotel. Never, ever would we have kicked someone out of their room.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 4, 2016 10:53:16 GMT -5
I'm even more flabbergasted because I would never expect my parents to host me like a guest. Let me stay at their house, yes, but I never expect them to treat me like they would a friend or sibling visiting.
My parents pretty much stick to their habits and plans unless it's planned ahead of time. I suppose it helps that I only live an hour away so I'm not staying for more than a day or two (not counting when I've been recovering from surgery) but I pretty much follow the same standards from college or high school. Help with dinner and clean up if I'm around, enjoy their company, and go do my own thing once their company annoys me! Lol.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 4, 2016 18:46:52 GMT -5
i don't want to slam anybody's culture....just that was what DSIL always says to me when i ask...'it's just how it is in my culture'...that they are just much more welcoming and open...that i haven't seen with his family but maybe the opening is just with other peoples possessions... Respecting cultural differences is a two-way street. --- From someone who has lived more than 3 decades in, what are for me foreign cultures. I respect other peoples' culture and I expect that same respect to be Shown to me!
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 5, 2016 10:15:22 GMT -5
so it's 2am and i'm sitting up waiting for my DSIL's sister and her companion to arrive some where in the range of 3am...and i'm not happy. actually i'm fast approaching pissed off. DD2 and her husband surprised us late today by showing up un-announced for a 5 day visit. i'm happy to see them and they are always welcome...but honestly i prefer a bit of warning before visits... this week is bad for us and we will now have to scramble around to get this to work...and i'd rather not have to do that...but will because she's our daughter and i have missed her. WHAT is it about your house that is so appealing that tons of people are willing to travel in packs to sleep on the floor just to BE there? Do you leave next to Brad Pitt?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Apr 5, 2016 10:17:46 GMT -5
Also WHO wants to travel to MOMs WITH In-Laws? I think it might be very well a cultural thing...
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