OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 29, 2016 6:14:48 GMT -5
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 29, 2016 6:55:24 GMT -5
I always felt that the cream rises to the top. If they are truly talented they find a way to get there, this true in all genders! Your thoughts? I wish the saying: "you have to work twice as hard to get half of what they have" did not resonate so true for both females and minorities... But sadly it is true! Funny had similar conversation last night with my wife on our way from Boston. My assistant is called bitchy, cunning, evil, you name it! If she was a man she would have been called: assertive, ambitious, know what he wants, a leader! She is a hard worker and bust her ass: I am trying to get her promoted to store director. Just because she doesn't fit the mold of what a "woman" should be in a man world. Heck I am trying to be more like her because I know that is what I need to make it to the next level. |
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 29, 2016 7:11:04 GMT -5
oLdcoyote does well be assertive in the business world, Some on the board here don't like that.  Be careful with crossing people, many you will meet later, you will need them. |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:13:00 GMT -5
I'm a strong woman and take offense that they think men have to speak for women. I know nothing about the advertising world so I can't speak to significant bias or not. But I don't think it helps the cause to have men reading anonymous quotes by women. We need to be strong and own our voice.
I'm also a logical person so I find it ludicrous to think that anyone would not choose the best person for the job, regardless of sex, race, etc. As a manager, I want the best people working for me because that makes my job easier. If there are two equally qualified people and one gets it over another than that is different...but to hire someone less qualified because they are white or a male makes not sense to me at all.
ETA: I am not saying that it is ok to not hire women or minorities all else being equal. But at least then you are selecting an equally qualified candidate. But to select a less qualified candidate just because they are white or male is just dumb |
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 29, 2016 7:18:40 GMT -5
* Quote removed as post quoted has been removed. - mmhmm, Administrator OK, Swamp you seem to be doing well, I think it has to do with the talent you have, loftier goals. I don't believe this because someone gave this out of the bottom of their heart. I also think you are one of the smarter poster here! |
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 29, 2016 7:36:03 GMT -5
I'm a strong woman and take offense that they think men have to speak for women. I know nothing about the advertising world so I can't speak to significant bias or not. But I don't think it helps the cause to have men reading anonymous quotes by women. We need to be strong and own our voice.
I'm also a logical person so I find it ludicrous to think that anyone would not choose the best person for the job, regardless of sex, race, etc. As a manager, I want the best people working for me because that makes my job easier. If there are two equally qualified people and one gets it over another than that is different...but to hire someone less qualified because they are white or a male makes not sense to me at all.
ETA: I am not saying that it is ok to not hire women or minorities all else being equal. But at least then you are selecting an equally qualified candidate. But to select a less qualified candidate just because they are white or male is just dumb I don't think the point was that women need men to speak for them. I think it's to point out how ludicrous some of the comments are and the comment would not have been made had the recipient been a man.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 29, 2016 7:36:56 GMT -5
*Quote removed as post quoted has been removed. - mmhmm, Administrator OK, Swamp you seem to be doing well, I think it has to do with the talent you have, loftier goals. I don't believe this because someone gave this out of the bottom of their heart. I also think you are one of the smarter poster here! If you recognize this talent, why have I been told that I should stay home with my kids, or confused with the secretary, or treated like I'm dumb? |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:38:31 GMT -5
I'm a strong woman and take offense that they think men have to speak for women. I know nothing about the advertising world so I can't speak to significant bias or not. But I don't think it helps the cause to have men reading anonymous quotes by women. We need to be strong and own our voice.
I'm also a logical person so I find it ludicrous to think that anyone would not choose the best person for the job, regardless of sex, race, etc. As a manager, I want the best people working for me because that makes my job easier. If there are two equally qualified people and one gets it over another than that is different...but to hire someone less qualified because they are white or a male makes not sense to me at all.
ETA: I am not saying that it is ok to not hire women or minorities all else being equal. But at least then you are selecting an equally qualified candidate. But to select a less qualified candidate just because they are white or male is just dumb I don't think the point was that women need men to speak for them. I think it's to point out how ludicrous some of the comments are and the comment would not have been made had the recipient been a man.
I'm at work and couldn't listen to the comments!lol I read the article and no comments were highlighted so I was speaking in general about my annoyance for men speaking for women!
I guess I am totally missing the point of this article then...was it to mock women? Were the comments that bad?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 29, 2016 7:39:48 GMT -5
I don't think the point was that women need men to speak for them. I think it's to point out how ludicrous some of the comments are and the comment would not have been made had the recipient been a man.
I'm at work and couldn't listen to the comments!lol I read the article and no comments were highlighted so I was speaking in general about my annoyance for men speaking for women!
I guess I am totally missing the point of this article then...was it to mock women? Were the comments that bad?
Men said the things that were said to women. The comments sound really stupid when directed at a man.
It's thoughts and comments. Some are of the "I need to stop saying I'm sorry, be more aggressive" but the following were awful.
My boss said I don't look like a leader. I was told I'm not the face of a sport brand I was going to have a baby and my boss said "To bad, your career is was going so well." If I disagree with my boss, I'm being emotional. I was told to attend a meeting to look pretty.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:39:58 GMT -5
OK, Swamp you seem to be doing well, I think it has to do with the talent you have, loftier goals. I don't believe this because someone gave this out of the bottom of their heart. I also think you are one of the smarter poster here! If you recognize this talent, why have I been told that I should stay home with my kids, or confused with the secretary, or treated like I'm dumb? I wonder if it is due in part to the area that you live in? The only person that ever told me I should stay home with my kids is my mom (which is funny considering how well THAT worked out for her!lol). My firm was 50/50 men/women and no one treated the women like they were dumb or assumed they were secretaries. |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:40:59 GMT -5
I'm at work and couldn't listen to the comments!lol I read the article and no comments were highlighted so I was speaking in general about my annoyance for men speaking for women!
I guess I am totally missing the point of this article then...was it to mock women? Were the comments that bad?
Men said the things that were said to women. The comments sound really stupid when directed at a man. And yes. I will have to remember to go back and listen when I get home later...and lesson learned, I shouldn't comment on a thread when I didn't watch the video!lol |
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 7:41:32 GMT -5
I don't think the point was that women need men to speak for them. I think it's to point out how ludicrous some of the comments are and the comment would not have been made had the recipient been a man.
I'm at work and couldn't listen to the comments!lol I read the article and no comments were highlighted so I was speaking in general about my annoyance for men speaking for women!
I guess I am totally missing the point of this article then...was it to mock women? Were the comments that bad?
No, like Swamp posted it was to show how ludicrous it would sound if a man had the same things happen to them that women have to deal with.
Did you ever see the clip where they had sports reporters ask male athletes the same questions that sports reporters ask female athletes all the time? Like "give us a twirl!" or "let's talk about your clothes". It is hilarious and shows how ridiculous it would be if a reporter treated the male athletes the way they treat the women.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 7:42:56 GMT -5
If you recognize this talent, why have I been told that I should stay home with my kids, or confused with the secretary, or treated like I'm dumb? I wonder if it is due in part to the area that you live in? Could be. But I had some of the same things happen to me when I was working in corporate business. Swamp is in far NE America and I was in the Southwest. |
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 29, 2016 7:44:20 GMT -5
If you recognize this talent, why have I been told that I should stay home with my kids, or confused with the secretary, or treated like I'm dumb? I wonder if it is due in part to the area that you live in? The only person that ever told me I should stay home with my kids is my mom (which is funny considering how well THAT worked out for her!lol). My firm was 50/50 men/women and no one treated the women like they were dumb or assumed they were secretaries. My sister has had the same comments. She doesn't live here. She has practiced in Philadelphia and Florida. |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:44:58 GMT -5
I wonder if it is due in part to the area that you live in? Could be. But I had some of the same things happen to me when I was working in corporate business. Swamp is in far NE America and I was in the Southwest. I've just never experienced. I'm also in the NE and far from a progressive area. |
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 7:47:53 GMT -5
Could be. But I had some of the same things happen to me when I was working in corporate business. Swamp is in far NE America and I was in the Southwest. I've just never experienced. I'm also in the NE and far from a progressive area. You yourself have actually practiced discrimination and been open about posting about it (not wanting to hire young women who will take maternity leave). |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 7:51:27 GMT -5
I've just never experienced. I'm also in the NE and far from a progressive area. You yourself have actually practiced discrimination and been open about posting about it (not wanting to hire young women who will take maternity leave). Actually I didn't practice discrimination. I said in the event of two equally qualified individuals I would select the one least likely to leave me for months at a clip. Even after I made that statement on here I hired a woman of child bearing age because she was the most qualified...I think she made it to the parking lot before she got pregnant! So right now I have my senior person out on maternity leave.
The fact that I would prefer not to hire someone who is going to their work on me isn't discrimination. In the end I hired the best for the job.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 7:57:20 GMT -5
The fact that I would prefer not to hire someone who is going to their work on me isn't discrimination.
Yes, it technically is. Avoiding hiring a woman because a woman could get pregnant and take time off is discrimination, especially since you don't know if that woman is even planning to have children.
My guess is that most of the idiots who have said the discriminatory things in the ad example probably don't think they're discriminating, either and that's a big part of the problem. I'm sure that they don't think it's discrimination to call an assertive woman bossy - they're just being honest. They don't think it's discrimination to tell a potential female manager she's just not as powerful as the men - hey, how could she - all 5'2" of her be? They don't think it's discrimination to tell a female that she just doesn't look like a CEO - after all, it's true that very few women are CEOs so a woman is not going to look like a CEO. They don't think it's a problem to tell a woman that she's just not the right "fit" for a sports ad campaign - after all most of the people playing the sports and working on the campaign are men so it's just simple truth that she's not a fit.
So maybe the problem isn't that the discrimination isn't there, it's that the people who are discriminating don't realize they're discriminating since they can so easily justify it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 8:01:59 GMT -5
The fact that I would prefer not to hire someone who is going to their work on me isn't discrimination.
Yes, it technically is. Avoiding hiring a woman because a woman could get pregnant and take time off is discrimination, especially since you don't know if that woman is even planning to have children.
My guess is that most of the idiots who have said the discriminatory things in the ad example probably don't think they're discriminating, either and that's a big part of the problem. I'm sure that they don't think it's discrimination to call an assertive woman bossy - they're just being honest. They don't think it's discrimination to tell a potential female manager she's just not as powerful as the men - hey, how could she - all 5'2" of her be? They don't think it's discrimination to tell a female that she just doesn't look like a CEO - after all, it's true that very few women are CEOs so a woman is not going to look like a CEO. They don't think it's a problem to tell a woman that she's just not the right "fit" for a sports ad campaign - after all most of the people playing the sports and working on the campaign are men so it's just simple truth that she's not a fit.
So maybe the problem isn't that the discrimination isn't there, it's that the people who are discriminating don't realize they're discriminating since they can so easily justify it.
And yet my experience proves me right...as soon as I hire her she gets pregnant. So in 4 years this is 2 women that I have hired and had to cover for.
I'm not easily justifying anything. No one wants to admit that when a woman goes out on maternity leave it creates a huge gap in an organization. Unless they have a low level position that is easily filled by someone else, you are going to struggle until that person gets back from leave. So yes, if I had two equally qualified individuals I would hire the one that is less likely to cause me grief. But I'm not a moron and I'm not going to hire someone less qualified just to avoid being left in the lurch for 3 months.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 8:08:12 GMT -5
I'm always amazed at the things that people think it's OK to say about "women" when if they said the exact same thing about a minority people would vehemently disagree.
If a poster wrote that it's OK for them to avoid hiring a black person if they have any other suitable options because black people are lazy, that would be bad enough. But if that person then wrote that they have personally experienced 2 lazy black employees in the last 4 years so their experience proves them right and it's not discrimination if it's true... most people would find that unacceptable and call them out on it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 29, 2016 8:15:07 GMT -5
Anyone, regardless of gender or race can be lazy/stupid. Not anyone can get pregnant. I'm not justifying any discrimination against women, but I'm just pointing out a fact. It's a shame that this awesome and extremely important ability we have is considered a liability.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 29, 2016 8:20:05 GMT -5
Anyone, regardless of gender or race can be lazy/stupid. Not anyone can get pregnant. I'm not justifying any discrimination against women, but I'm just pointing out a fact. It's a shame that this awesome and extremely important ability we have is considered a liability. It is not the pregnancy that is the liability is the the leave that follows it. It is ok, though. In the future professional surrogates will have all of the babies (only crunchy women will give birth to their own babies) and wet nurses and nannies will take care of the kids. So this will not be an issues for our kid's kids. |
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 29, 2016 8:20:46 GMT -5
Case in point, not quite two years ago I was asked by one of my factory reps. to contact one of their customers.
It was a business owned by a young woman, a very smart young Asian woman, Chemical Engineering degree, bought this retail business.
She had survived under the most poor conditions for a year. Knowing that i would need to put considerable resources into her business,
I started asking some hard financial questions, She kicked me out of her store!
A couple of months later I get a call from her, she had bought some equipment, needed it installed. she still didn't like but everyone she called told her to use oldcoyote.
Even my hard competition. they didn't she would survive, they would not be able to collect. She had another quote for $800. they didn't know what they were doing,
she fired them, I look at the job, $3500, she has a heart attack. I wait a week go back. You get someone to do this, this and this think she had a boyfriend or husband.
I will do this this and this for $2500. she said Ok. I did a great job for her, was paid, go on my way. wait a week nothing done, wait another week still nothing done.
I go to my warehouse, load up what I needed, walk in finish her job, I also spent seven hours repairing the machine that she bought that was "in perfect running condition".
I didn't charge for the seven hours. I just dropped in several times just to make sure everything was running good.
Acouple of month later one of the pieces of equipment dieded, that was vital to her business. you could hear the desperation in her voice.
I was pretty sure she was out of money, I pulled out the bad equipment brought in some good used equipment, went ahead add a bunch more equipment.
Now her has a fully operating store. this was in August and September. I didn't give her a bill. In Feb, she demanded a bill, I did give was paid in full.
Her business in really growing Up an average of 30% over the year before, when many of my customers stay about the sameas the year before.
I knew when i first met her, she had what it took to grow a business, To hear her with a customer is great, All I did was enable her to grow her business.
One big difference between her and many of my other customers, is She listens and uses good business advice.
Sorry for the long post! But she is one of the success stories in a business area that is declining.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Mar 29, 2016 8:23:07 GMT -5
I think, as usual, no personal stories, studies or facts will change your mind. So I think I don't understand why you even posted this. |
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 29, 2016 8:27:26 GMT -5
I'm a strong woman and take offense that they think men have to speak for women. I know nothing about the advertising world so I can't speak to significant bias or not. But I don't think it helps the cause to have men reading anonymous quotes by women. We need to be strong and own our voice.
I'm also a logical person so I find it ludicrous to think that anyone would not choose the best person for the job, regardless of sex, race, etc. As a manager, I want the best people working for me because that makes my job easier. If there are two equally qualified people and one gets it over another than that is different...but to hire someone less qualified because they are white or a male makes not sense to me at all.
ETA: I am not saying that it is ok to not hire women or minorities all else being equal. But at least then you are selecting an equally qualified candidate. But to select a less qualified candidate just because they are white or male is just dumb People hire emotionally more than logically. Very few people are willing to hire someone they feel is better than them. That is just one of the many reasons someone would not pick the best person for the job. They want to appear to be the best or are worried the new hire could take their job. |
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 8:28:38 GMT -5
I'm always amazed at the things that people think it's OK to say about "women" when if they said the exact same thing about a minority people would vehemently disagree.
If a poster wrote that it's OK for them to avoid hiring a black person if they have any other suitable options because black people are lazy, that would be bad enough. But if that person then wrote that they have personally experienced 2 lazy black employees in the last 4 years so their experience proves them right and it's not discrimination if it's true... most people would find that unacceptable and call them out on it.
And you called me out...several times. You aren't suddenly going to change my thinking because you aren't the one in my shoes. It is one thing to think one way it is another to actually have to deal with it. I remember one poster in another thread blasting me on this same issue...not that long after her husband up and quits because they had so little staff that he couldn't tolerate the volume of work dumped on him (a very valid complaint). Imagine now having so little staff and then having one of your senior people go out for 3 months? Same poster was bitching about how their downsizing has dumped so much work on everyone and she is fortunate because she is one of the few that isn't salaried so she doesn't get the brunt of it. Again, toss in someone who is out for 3 months and see how happy she would be.
So it is great to have ideals but sometimes reality of the situation make it difficult to deal with. This wasn't an issue when I was in public because we had 1000 employees, all of whom rolled in and out all of the time. Very different scenario when you have a Finance staff of 7.
So you have done your duty and called me out. My views haven't change and won't change. In the end, I'm the one that is stuck when someone goes out.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 8:30:33 GMT -5
Anyone, regardless of gender or race can be lazy/stupid. Not anyone can get pregnant. I'm not justifying any discrimination against women, but I'm just pointing out a fact. It's a shame that this awesome and extremely important ability we have is considered a liability. I'm not disagreeing with you. Unfortunately, the culture of "work with as few employees as possible" makes it very difficult to lose someone for 3 months unless we are talking about a low level employee.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 29, 2016 8:31:22 GMT -5
I'm a strong woman and take offense that they think men have to speak for women. I know nothing about the advertising world so I can't speak to significant bias or not. But I don't think it helps the cause to have men reading anonymous quotes by women. We need to be strong and own our voice.
I'm also a logical person so I find it ludicrous to think that anyone would not choose the best person for the job, regardless of sex, race, etc. As a manager, I want the best people working for me because that makes my job easier. If there are two equally qualified people and one gets it over another than that is different...but to hire someone less qualified because they are white or a male makes not sense to me at all.
ETA: I am not saying that it is ok to not hire women or minorities all else being equal. But at least then you are selecting an equally qualified candidate. But to select a less qualified candidate just because they are white or male is just dumb People hire emotionally more than logically. Very few people are willing to hire someone they feel is better than them. That is just one of the many reasons someone would not pick the best person for the job. They want to appear to be the best or are worried the new hire could take their job. I think that might be true of insecure people. I'm not insecure so I want the best I can find...to find less just means more work for me! |
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 29, 2016 8:36:46 GMT -5
I'm always amazed at the things that people think it's OK to say about "women" when if they said the exact same thing about a minority people would vehemently disagree.
If a poster wrote that it's OK for them to avoid hiring a black person if they have any other suitable options because black people are lazy, that would be bad enough. But if that person then wrote that they have personally experienced 2 lazy black employees in the last 4 years so their experience proves them right and it's not discrimination if it's true... most people would find that unacceptable and call them out on it.
And you called me out...several times. You aren't suddenly going to change my thinking because you aren't the one in my shoes.
You're completely misunderstanding. I'm not trying to change your thinking (I'm a firm believer with that old Southern saying about never wrestling with a pig, you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it). I'm using your posts to illustrate the issue to others. I'm using you as an example of how people discriminate, why people discriminate and how/why they justify their actions. Understanding how and why discrimination happens is important if we ever want to actually address the issue. As your example shows, few people believe they're discriminating and when they're shown evidence that they are then they can't accept it and instead seek to justify why their actions are appropriate. Very similar to the anti-vaccination crowd who reacts the same way to scientific studies - denial.
We need to understand how and why this happens because current efforts to address the issue - provide evidence and reason - are not going to change beliefs and behavior, as you're demonstrating.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 29, 2016 8:36:56 GMT -5
Sorry that not everyone recognizes talent when they see it, Swamp.
One of my old time customers (28years) SIL had graduated from college, Applied at a bank for a financial position, was directed by hiring manager to the secretary pool.
Now her and the husband are Developers in California, worth millions,maybe more.
Now that hiring manager handles their huge account, She is sure that he does not remember her, but has thought of pointing it out, Karma is a Bitch.
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