Greif and anger

[Deleted]

I understand that anger is often a part of the grieving process.  How does  a person deal with someone who is grieving and is angry?   The anger is directed at someone in a really unfair and kind of hateful way.  It is not directed at me.  I don't know what to do or if I should try to do anything.  I suggest counseling.  She is 800  miles away.  I end up not calling because I dont know how to respond and she say ugly things about people who do not deserve what she says. 

Can I say "that is an ugly thing to say and not true at all"  if that is correct?  If so, how do I say that?  If not, what do I say?  I want to say "you are going to regret saying that later" and then have a conversation about that.  Can I speak truth to someone who is grieving and in real pain?

I just want to help and I dont know what to do.  If she wanted to take out her anger on me, I can deal with that, because I can let it slide later.  But I think she is changing relationships with others in a way that they will remember.

[giramomma]

I think you need to tread carefully when speaking your truth.

It's been my personal experience that when someone is married to their version of the events, they aren't budging, even if it didn't happen that way. To try to convince them otherwise is like doing this , with the end result leaving you with a literal headache.

It also bothers me when people act as if they know how I'm going to feel. They don't have a crystal ball, to somehow predict with 100% accuracy my future thoughts and feelings. In fact, it bothers me so much that I immediately shut down.

You can't protect others from shooting themselves in his/her foot. You cannot help other people manage relationships that don't directly involve you.

You've suggested therapy. There isn't much more you can do. You can't help others that don't want it.

Figure out how much you want to listen and deliver that boundary. That's all you can do right now.

[zibazinski]

There's nothing you can say or do. It's a process.

[zibazinski]

Trust me on this one.

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2016 18:41:17 GMT -5 @hickle said:

 If she wanted to take out her anger on me, I can deal with that, because I can let it slide later.  But I think she is changing relationships with others in a way that they will remember.

And that might happen.  Sometimes things happen in our lives that just catapult us off into different direction and relationships are changed.

[Blonde Granny]

Grieving is a process and everyone handles it a different way. As someone who is still working their way through it, my advice would be to say nothing, certainly not tell this person they are wrong. No one processes things in exactly the same way. This person has feelings that may be not based in fact, but the feeling are real and valid.

I can assure you, the first person that started telling me what I should or shouldn't feel and what to say or not say would end up with a blast of profanity that would make your hair curl. Just understand this person is hurting, and anger is all part of the process.

[CCL]

That's a tough spot to be in. I'm sorry and hope it gets better, but like others have said, may not be much you can do. Maybe it will help to just be a good listener and allow them to vent?

[thyme4change]

I agree that they will get there only when and if they want and are ready to get there. But, maybe it wouldbt be the worst thing in the world to state that you have a different interpretation of the events and you want to be there to help, but not participate in cruel gossip that you disagree with. You might get some backlash, but if you continue to communicate love and support, maybe you can be useful. Give the person the room to keep their opinion, but you don't have to support the opinion. I am sure there is something else you can do to be supportive besides listen to the same rehash of the same story.

[gregintenn]

A man can't fix everything, even though he'd like to. About all you can do is listen and be a shoulder to cry on I suppose.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

I agree with Greg. Listening is probably what they want most. Don't get into any discussion pro or con on their opinion.

[cronewitch]

Say words that support your friend without agreeing or disagreeing with them. For example they say "Sally stabbed me in the back and I will never forgive her" You can say that must really feel awful when you think you can trust someone and they betray you, she has been a good friend for so many years it must be awful to feel she isn't now. If I was their I would give you a hug. Whatever you do don't pile on with them saying "Sally does that to everyone" Then share everything bad you know about her, it will make it worse and when she forgives her old friend they will both hate you. Think how you would feel if you break up with a lover or spouse and your friends shared everything bad about them then you get back together. You keep the friends who didn't take sides except to be sorry you are hurting then happy for you when you get back together.

[zibazinski]

Mar 14, 2016 21:22:55 GMT -5 cronewitch said:

Say words that support your friend without agreeing or disagreeing with them. For example they say "Sally stabbed me in the back and I will never forgive her" You can say that must really feel awful when you think you can trust someone and they betray you, she has been a good friend for so many years it must be awful to feel she isn't now. If I was their I would give you a hug. Whatever you do don't pile on with them saying "Sally does that to everyone" Then share everything bad you know about her, it will make it worse and when she forgives her old friend they will both hate you. Think how you would feel if you break up with a lover or spouse and your friends shared everything bad about them then you get back together. You keep the friends who didn't take sides except to be sorry you are hurting then happy for you when you get back together.

[



Excellent advice

[billisonboard]

Mar 14, 2016 18:41:17 GMT -5 @hickle said:

..;
But I think she is changing relationships with others in a way that they will remember.

Any chance of talking with the "others" helping them understand?

[lund]

For now, listen and recommend counseling to get help handling the (immense) grief.
People grieving often don't take any logic.
Crone's advice about not agreeing nor disagreeing is very good indeed.


Grief and anger (towards the deceased for not behaving in a better way and/or for dying) may be displaced to others, according to the pattern "if person X had helped and done Y, the outcome would have been different".
The only possible answer that I can think of is something like "I don't think so, when (the deceased did not want to and) not even you, with your close relationship, could make her/him."
Counseling can help to work through that.


It is difficult to say anything at all.
If there was depression behind the death, stating that depression is a severe, scary, deadly, difficult to treat disease is a true and not very offending thing to say.
If drugs were involved, you can state that you hate what drugs to to people. This may turn the focus of the anger more towards drugs.


The face of grief will change over time. (If it doesn't, counseling is really needed.)
When the anger subsides, there will over time often come a phase that is more "looking for answers".
There may be more reasoning at that time.


If the other persons would talk to you about the situation, be careful there too. (I don't think that you should start the subject with them. Don't get between the parties and in the line of fire....)
Say things more on the line of "it is difficult (to say anything about...), since (s)he is grieving so intensely", giving them the idea that grief is behind much of the anger without putting yourself in a bad place.

[tloonya]

Maybe try to change the subject and let them talk about themselves more than about others.

Good luck in whatever you decide...

[Bonny]

Mar 14, 2016 21:15:21 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Listening is probably what they want most.

I agree. And if they are very depressed they are going to look at things in the most negative way possible.

Often just repeating "I'm sorry you feel this way" can be helpful. At some point they will get tired of complaining and will start saying "Don't you agree". And at that point you can say "Well this is how I saw the situation" or something to that effect.

This is why an outside professional is really helpful. No emotion and it's not personal.

 

[zibazinski]

Please fix grief, it drives me nuts.  Nuttier anyway.  The best advice I got besides my virtual friends here, was from my daughter who for better or for worse isn't emotionally involved except for worrying about me. It only pertains to my situation and she's used to the way I put things so when I say blunt angry hurtful things because I'm angry and hurt, she lets it slide by and addresses what's really going on in my life. She knows like hell that I'm worried about finances and she also knows that in a few months, I'll breathe easier but in the meantime I'm stressed as hell and fly off at dumb stuff. I should be grieving and instead I'm worrying about things I shouldn't be worried about at all. 
The long point I'm trying to make is that her anger and outbursts may have nothing to do with what you think they do but totally unrelated. Our mutual friends up north and my husbands friends have zero clue as to what has been done to me and I don't intend that they ever do. I want not to have my husbands memory tarnished in his and our friends minds because I'm hoping that it was a mistake on his part and not deliberate. Not staying up there has helped because in my fits of anger I could have ratted my DH out to others. By the time I see our friends again, I hope to be calmer and be able to keep my mouth shut so as to not tarnish his memory or people's perception of our relationship. Part of it is my embarrassment of being played for a fool again, I don't want anyone to know. The other part is me trying to hold onto the hope that the man did love me. Just messed things up.

[zibazinski]

It's easier for everyone up north to believe that the house and furnishings are being sold because I need to make a fresh start and not clung to the past .  They don't need to know anything more. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sometimes it is easier when you are grieving to focus your attention on other things than to face the situation.   The best thing you can do for that person is recognize that they are grieving and grief does not always come in forms that others approve of.   Don't take the things they say personally.   Let it go in one ear and out another.


The last thing I want when I am grieving is for people to tell me how I should behave or what I should say.   DH has a really bad habit of doing that.  His heart is in the right place, he just wants to help.  What I actually need from him though is to just sit there and listen.   Once I get it all out I am all right and ready to move on.

When he chastises me it makes me feel like my feelings aren't valid.  I then stop turning to him for support.  Why be judged on top of grieving for what I lost?

[zibazinski]

Amen.

[souldoubt]

One of my fiancee's cousins in his early 20's committed suicide late last year.  His mom was out of state within a few weeks and she hasn't come back yet.  She didn't want to do a service for him because of her own beliefs so the rest of the family got together without telling her.  They didn't do it to spite her they did it because they wanted to grieve together and celebrate his life.  I don't think they ever told her they did this because they didn't want to anger her.  She talks to her parents but nothing they say or do is bringing her back as she'll have to come back on her own when she's ready if she chooses to.  Sometimes all you can do is let people vent and grieve in their own way until they start to heal and want to talk about it.  

[Deleted]

I have been reading the thread and wanted to say 'thank you' for the replies.

[TheOtherMe]

Please remember that there is no right or wrong way to grieve.  Everybody does it at their own pace and in their own way.

My 92 year old father is still deeply grieving the loss of his wife of over 65 years almost two years ago.  I don't think he will ever recover emotionally.  I also don't know what to do to "fix" it for him.  It can't be changed.  Periodically he gets mad at mom because she refused to have surgery.  That was when she had decided she had had enough and had decided no more doctors, etc.  My dad does not understand all the risks that were involved with that surgery and what the healing process would have been.  There was only a 50% chance she would have survived the surgery and there was a long nursing home stay involved for rehabilitation. 

I miss my mother, but I have never been mad at her.  My choice would have been the choice she made.

[Deleted]

Mar 15, 2016 20:17:54 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Please remember that there is no right or wrong way to grieve.  Everybody does it at their own pace and in their own way.

My 92 year old father is still deeply grieving the loss of his wife of over 65 years almost two years ago.  I don't think he will ever recover emotionally.  I also don't know what to do to "fix" it for him.  It can't be changed.  Periodically he gets mad at mom because she refused to have surgery.  That was when she had decided she had had enough and had decided no more doctors, etc.  My dad does not understand all the risks that were involved with that surgery and what the healing process would have been.  There was only a 50% chance she would have survived the surgery and there was a long nursing home stay involved for rehabilitation. 

I miss my mother, but I have never been mad at her.  My choice would have been the choice she made.

But there is a wrong way. If you are causing real pain to others that they do not deserve that is wrong. I am not talking about some bitter comment but really ugly things that are not going to be forgotten.

[Deleted]

Mar 15, 2016 20:24:14 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Mar 15, 2016 20:17:54 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

Please remember that there is no right or wrong way to grieve.  Everybody does it at their own pace and in their own way.

My 92 year old father is still deeply grieving the loss of his wife of over 65 years almost two years ago.  I don't think he will ever recover emotionally.  I also don't know what to do to "fix" it for him.  It can't be changed.  Periodically he gets mad at mom because she refused to have surgery.  That was when she had decided she had had enough and had decided no more doctors, etc.  My dad does not understand all the risks that were involved with that surgery and what the healing process would have been.  There was only a 50% chance she would have survived the surgery and there was a long nursing home stay involved for rehabilitation. 

I miss my mother, but I have never been mad at her.  My choice would have been the choice she made.

But there is a wrong way. If you are causing real pain to others that they do not deserve that is wrong. I am not talking about some bitter comment but really ugly things that are not going to be forgotten.

Yes, that's the really sad part.  In our pain we can cause unforgettable pain and damage to those around us.  And that never, ever makes our own pain less.  I am so sorry you are going through this.  

[CCL]

Mar 15, 2016 20:28:19 GMT -5 @donethat said:

Mar 15, 2016 20:24:14 GMT -5 @hickle said:

But there is a wrong way. If you are causing real pain to others that they do not deserve that is wrong. I am not talking about some bitter comment but really ugly things that are not going to be forgotten.

Yes, that's the really sad part.  In our pain we can cause unforgettable pain and damage to those around us.  And that never, ever makes our own pain less.  I am so sorry you are going through this.  

That is true, but hopefully those who are aware of the situation have some understanding of the struggles the bereaved is facing and can show a bit of compassion toward them.

[Peace Of Mind]

Mar 14, 2016 19:00:52 GMT -5 Blonde Granny said:

Grieving is a process and everyone handles it a different way. As someone who is still working their way through it, my advice would be to say nothing, certainly not tell this person they are wrong. No one processes things in exactly the same way. This person has feelings that may be not based in fact, but the feeling are real and valid.

I can assure you, the first person that started telling me what I should or shouldn't feel and what to say or not say would end up with a blast of profanity that would make your hair curl. Just understand this person is hurting, and anger is all part of the process.

I agree with this too and I have to confess to you that I was like  when you started changing everything immediately after he passed.  I didn't understand it at first but after reading you afterwards and you started explaining your reasonings it made perfect sense to me and I realized it was just different than what I had seen from others.  Thank you for this lesson.  I will now know how to react in RL when somebody reacts as you did instead of being all .  I suck at hiding my emotions when in front of people and that would NOT be helpful to them if they confide in me or need my support.  

[973beachbum]

Mar 15, 2016 20:28:19 GMT -5 @donethat said:

Mar 15, 2016 20:24:14 GMT -5 @hickle said:

But there is a wrong way. If you are causing real pain to others that they do not deserve that is wrong. I am not talking about some bitter comment but really ugly things that are not going to be forgotten.

Yes, that's the really sad part.  In our pain we can cause unforgettable pain and damage to those around us.  And that never, ever makes our own pain less.  I am so sorry you are going through this.  

I was actually the person who had awful nasty lies said about them after a family tragedy. 

DH's brother committed suicide.  His wife told lots of lies about me to make it seem like it was my fault.  I'm sure there are people who believed her.  The truth is she knew he felt that way and didn't call anyone least of all the police.  Afterwards I'm sure the guilt made her need to blame someone else so as to not feel it was all her fault.

She will never get anything from me after that.  And believe me she has tried.  The consequences of her actions are not null and void because she was grieving. 

I do agree that you are in a very hard place Hickle!  I am not sure I wouldn't have liked being in your position even less than I liked mine.

[sesfw]

It's easier for everyone up north to believe that the house and furnishings are being sold because I need to make a fresh start and not clung to the past . They don't need to know anything more.

zib, in the time I spent in grief recovery after DH died we shared a lot of things.  It was all in an internet chat room so for the most part we were honest with our feelings and such. This type of situation was true for about half the people.  While we didn't share a lot of detail, we did share the anger and pain.

There are some things that family and friends just don't need to know.

Hinckle, can you keep contact with your relative and let EVERYTHING she says slide off?  Crone is right, all she needs is someone to vent to.  The person the died is no longer around so the venting is to anyone that will stand still long enough.  There isn't much you can do to ease the pain.  TIME is a 4 letter word but it's the only thing that works.

Good luck ......... I'm sorry she is in so much pain.

[TheOtherMe]

You might also suggest the person attend a grief support group and let the anger out there.  I attended one after mom died and there was a lot of anger released there and nobody got hurt by it.  Yes, it was hard to listen to, but I think we all learned what our anger sounded like to other people and that it was not okay to blame others inappropriately.