Do I say something or keep my mouth shut?

[buystoys]

Feb 20, 2016 20:38:06 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

Since you don't know "beyond a shadow of a doubt," you should do nothing. I put 0 stock into unverified rumors and while the he said she said conversations can be entertaining, no I would not report to authorities based on he said she said.

That said, I have no problem calling people out directly. Why don't you just tell your friend (acquaintance?) what you heard and see what he says. Maybe he'll tell you his side of the story.

I'm normally a "get this out in the open" type person, but as I said in the OP, there are some complexities in this situation.  DH and I pretty much disconnected ourselves from the acquaintances.  Middleman has to maintain a relationship with them right now, so it would be obvious where I had heard this from and Middleman's family would be the ones getting any flack. 

At this point, I think I'm just going to continue to encourage Middleman to say something. 

[buystoys]

Feb 21, 2016 7:55:35 GMT -5 haapai said:

I agree with everyone else who has told you that if you don't have first-hand information that this guy is gaming the system, you'd be better off keeping your mouth shut. 

But you needn't worry that this guy is getting away with anything.  If he's actually working under Lady Before and After's name, he's built himself a special type of hell.  Perhaps if you start counting the ways, you'll feel better about not airing your suspicions. There's quite a bit more idiocy in play here than not getting properly credited for Social Security. 

If he is getting paid under his LB&A's name, he may not have any control over his paycheck.  While it is possible that his employer pays him in cash or cashes his check for him or pays him via a payroll processing card, it sounds quite likely that his paycheck goes directly to LB&A. 

If he ever tries to leave LB&A, she can utterly nail him with a paternity claim on the first child, or on the one that they are trying to conceive.  She won't necessarily collect a dime, but it sure will make his life miserable and his paychecks puny, assuming of course that he manages to find another job and another place to live. 

Finally, there is a decent possibility that this guy isn't even garnishable or that the amount of the combined garnishment and CS (a child support obligation would probably materialize if he was actually reporting earnings) is actually tiny.  This guy seems to have put his junk in a vise for a pittance.   Well, maybe not a pittance, he's also getting housing and benefits from LB&A but he's definitely put himself in a situation where she holds all the cards and he holds none. 

Thank you, haapai, for adding some good perspective for me.  LB&A missed the window of opportunity to claim paternity on the first child, so that's off the table.  However, your other points are very valid.

I think that this bothers me because if GF is saying something about it to Middleman, then GF is saying it to other people as well.  (Her personality.)  If she's bragging about how they've figured out how to get him out of CS garnishment, then why isn't anyone saying anything about it?  Is it just completely acceptable these days that someone cheats and lies in order to walk away from their responsibility?  I wholeheartedly admit that I don't do everything (or even a lot of things) right, but it just isn't in me to easily accept someone essentially stealing from their own kids. 

[kittensaver]

You are only a distant third party to this situation. You only know rumors. You need FACTS before any legal or reporting agency is going to pay any attention to you. Starting to pepper the child support or employment systems with claims of *potential* misconduct when you have no facts is the fastest way to become branded as the local busy-body.

If you are really concerned in this situation, find a way to contact the mother who is not receiving CS. Let her figure out/investigate/get help investigating her situation.

Yes we all hate fraud, but it is patently unfair to say that any of these shenanigans impact us directly (because of our tax dollars). Your tax dollars going to social service programs is insignificant compared to other types of government spending.

If you want to get REALLY mad about your tax dollars being "misused," get mad about the billions in tax dollars being wasted on war and on corporate subsidies. That costs the average tax payer FAR more each year than welfare payments.

[Phoenix84]

I agree with Seamp. Because your knowledge of the situation is second hand and unconfirmed, I'd not say anything.

[haapai]

It's also possible that working under the girlfriend's name was the employer's idea.  From what I gather, complying with an order of garnishment is a pain in the patootie even when the employee in question earns so little that nothing is garnishable.  Putting the wages in LB&A's name avoids a lot of paperwork and compliance issues but it sure is taking a heck of a risk.  I'm not sure why any employer would take the risk of not having the employee covered by workman's comp insurance et al, unless LB&A was a relative of the employer, a extremely valuable employee, or someone who would be willing to wait to cash a paycheck. 

It's really a messy situation and everyone involved has shown themselves to be quite willing to lie to other people.  I don't think that you're a special snowflake that is somehow being treated to the truth.  I've learned to distance myself from players like this. 

[buystoys]

Feb 21, 2016 10:38:50 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

You are only a distant third party to this situation. You only know rumors. You need FACTS before any legal or reporting agency is going to pay any attention to you. Starting to pepper the child support or employment systems with claims of *potential* misconduct when you have no facts is the fastest way to become branded as the local busy-body.

If you are really concerned in this situation, find a way to contact the mother who is not receiving CS. Let her figure out/investigate/get help investigating her situation.

Yes we all hate fraud, but it is patently unfair to say that any of these shenanigans impact us directly (because of our tax dollars). Your tax dollars going to social service programs is insignificant compared to other types of government spending.

If you want to get REALLY mad about your tax dollars being "misused," get mad about the billions in tax dollars being wasted on war and on corporate subsidies. That costs the average tax payer FAR more each year than welfare payments.

Kittensaver, as I stated earlier, I have been encouraging Middleman to say something.  What I suggested was exactly your recommendation:  say something to the ex-wife, give her the info you were given, and go from there.

[buystoys]

Feb 21, 2016 16:04:38 GMT -5 haapai said:

It's also possible that working under the girlfriend's name was the employer's idea.  From what I gather, complying with an order of garnishment is a pain in the patootie even when the employee in question earns so little that nothing is garnishable.  Putting the wages in LB&A's name avoids a lot of paperwork and compliance issues but it sure is taking a heck of a risk.  I'm not sure why any employer would take the risk of not having the employee covered by workman's comp insurance et al, unless LB&A was a relative of the employer, a extremely valuable employee, or someone who would be willing to wait to cash a paycheck. 

It's really a messy situation and everyone involved has shown themselves to be quite willing to lie to other people.  I don't think that you're a special snowflake that is somehow being treated to the truth.  I've learned to distance myself from players like this. 

I do know that LB&A is not related in any way to the BF's employer. 

In spite of my husband routinely telling me I am special, thank you for the reminder that I am not a "special snowflake."   

[emma1420]

Feb 21, 2016 8:48:36 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Feb 21, 2016 7:55:35 GMT -5 haapai said:

I agree with everyone else who has told you that if you don't have first-hand information that this guy is gaming the system, you'd be better off keeping your mouth shut. 

But you needn't worry that this guy is getting away with anything.  If he's actually working under Lady Before and After's name, he's built himself a special type of hell.  Perhaps if you start counting the ways, you'll feel better about not airing your suspicions. There's quite a bit more idiocy in play here than not getting properly credited for Social Security. 

If he is getting paid under his LB&A's name, he may not have any control over his paycheck.  While it is possible that his employer pays him in cash or cashes his check for him or pays him via a payroll processing card, it sounds quite likely that his paycheck goes directly to LB&A. 

If he ever tries to leave LB&A, she can utterly nail him with a paternity claim on the first child, or on the one that they are trying to conceive.  She won't necessarily collect a dime, but it sure will make his life miserable and his paychecks puny, assuming of course that he manages to find another job and another place to live. 

Finally, there is a decent possibility that this guy isn't even garnishable or that the amount of the combined garnishment and CS (a child support obligation would probably materialize if he was actually reporting earnings) is actually tiny.  This guy seems to have put his junk in a vise for a pittance.   Well, maybe not a pittance, he's also getting housing and benefits from LB&A but he's definitely put himself in a situation where she holds all the cards and he holds none. 

Thank you, haapai, for adding some good perspective for me.  LB&A missed the window of opportunity to claim paternity on the first child, so that's off the table.  However, your other points are very valid.

I think that this bothers me because if GF is saying something about it to Middleman, then GF is saying it to other people as well.  (Her personality.)  If she's bragging about how they've figured out how to get him out of CS garnishment, then why isn't anyone saying anything about it?  Is it just completely acceptable these days that someone cheats and lies in order to walk away from their responsibility?  I wholeheartedly admit that I don't do everything (or even a lot of things) right, but it just isn't in me to easily accept someone essentially stealing from their own kids. 

I thought you could establish paternity at any time?  At least I have a co-worker who's daughter was born before she married her now ex-husband (he's the father they just married after their daughter was born), and had to establish paternity when she petitioned for sole custody and child support.  Her daughter was 8.  And I believe she could have established paternity at any time.

[happyhoix]

Feb 21, 2016 8:48:36 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Feb 21, 2016 7:55:35 GMT -5 haapai said:

I agree with everyone else who has told you that if you don't have first-hand information that this guy is gaming the system, you'd be better off keeping your mouth shut. 

But you needn't worry that this guy is getting away with anything.  If he's actually working under Lady Before and After's name, he's built himself a special type of hell.  Perhaps if you start counting the ways, you'll feel better about not airing your suspicions. There's quite a bit more idiocy in play here than not getting properly credited for Social Security. 

If he is getting paid under his LB&A's name, he may not have any control over his paycheck.  While it is possible that his employer pays him in cash or cashes his check for him or pays him via a payroll processing card, it sounds quite likely that his paycheck goes directly to LB&A. 

If he ever tries to leave LB&A, she can utterly nail him with a paternity claim on the first child, or on the one that they are trying to conceive.  She won't necessarily collect a dime, but it sure will make his life miserable and his paychecks puny, assuming of course that he manages to find another job and another place to live. 

Finally, there is a decent possibility that this guy isn't even garnishable or that the amount of the combined garnishment and CS (a child support obligation would probably materialize if he was actually reporting earnings) is actually tiny.  This guy seems to have put his junk in a vise for a pittance.   Well, maybe not a pittance, he's also getting housing and benefits from LB&A but he's definitely put himself in a situation where she holds all the cards and he holds none. 

Thank you, haapai, for adding some good perspective for me.  LB&A missed the window of opportunity to claim paternity on the first child, so that's off the table.  However, your other points are very valid.

I think that this bothers me because if GF is saying something about it to Middleman, then GF is saying it to other people as well.  (Her personality.)  If she's bragging about how they've figured out how to get him out of CS garnishment, then why isn't anyone saying anything about it?  Is it just completely acceptable these days that someone cheats and lies in order to walk away from their responsibility?  I wholeheartedly admit that I don't do everything (or even a lot of things) right, but it just isn't in me to easily accept someone essentially stealing from their own kids. 

It's possible he's getting paid cash under the table. I had a co-worker whose husband was doing this, he worked for a friend who just gave him cash money rather than a paycheck. He had a new wife and she carried him on her medical benefits.  His ex-wife got a judgment against him for child support, but since he didn't get a paycheck, she couldn't garnish it. (The whole reason for him working under the table).

It did (sort of) bite him in the ass - he got stopped for speeding a while later and in this state they lock you up for being behind on child support. At that point he owed $14,000. I would have left him rot in jail, but his family called up his ex-wife crying about how he couldn't get out of jail unless she signed a waiver, and she ended up driving down to the jail to spring him, because she didn't want him 'stuck in jail.'  

I lost touch with her after that, so I don't know if she ever got a dime from him. I was also curious if the IRS ever caught up with him for failure to pay taxes on his snowflake money.

[cael]

I guess since these are people you only vaguely know, not relatives or close friends, why even waste the mental effort thinking about it? I dunno. It wouldn't even be a blip on my radar to be honest. Not saying gaming the system is cool and I'm sure it'll catch up to him/them eventually, but as swamp said, not my monkeys, not my circus.

[buystoys]

Feb 22, 2016 8:39:14 GMT -5 emma1420 said:

Feb 21, 2016 8:48:36 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Thank you, haapai, for adding some good perspective for me.  LB&A missed the window of opportunity to claim paternity on the first child, so that's off the table.  However, your other points are very valid.

I think that this bothers me because if GF is saying something about it to Middleman, then GF is saying it to other people as well.  (Her personality.)  If she's bragging about how they've figured out how to get him out of CS garnishment, then why isn't anyone saying anything about it?  Is it just completely acceptable these days that someone cheats and lies in order to walk away from their responsibility?  I wholeheartedly admit that I don't do everything (or even a lot of things) right, but it just isn't in me to easily accept someone essentially stealing from their own kids. 

I thought you could establish paternity at any time?  At least I have a co-worker who's daughter was born before she married her now ex-husband (he's the father they just married after their daughter was born), and had to establish paternity when she petitioned for sole custody and child support.  Her daughter was 8.  And I believe she could have established paternity at any time.

I don't remember the whole story on this, emma, as I heard it 5?, 6? years ago?  The daughter and a son GF had with another man (the one who is named on the daughter's birth certificate) were removed from the GF's home by CPS.  The son went to live with the father's parents.  Don't remember where his dad is or the story on that.  GF claimed that the daughter wasn't related to the grand parents, that this acquaintance was the father.  There was a time limit to have paternity proven that passed.  CPS will normally go after the father for support or for additional leads for foster placement.  GF may still be able to pursue some type of paternity testing on her own, but I *think* she's kinda SOL because of the history here.  I just remember being told years ago that the kid was at an age that paternity would not be legally resolved.

[buystoys]

Feb 22, 2016 9:09:42 GMT -5 cael said:

I guess since these are people you only vaguely know, not relatives or close friends, why even waste the mental effort thinking about it? I dunno. It wouldn't even be a blip on my radar to be honest. Not saying gaming the system is cool and I'm sure it'll catch up to him/them eventually, but as swamp said, not my monkeys, not my circus.

Most of the time, these acquaintances aren't even on our radar, but Middleman's family has to maintain a relationship with them right now.  Middleman needs someone to vent to and I am a "safe" party for that.  There are some other things happening right now that may make all this drama just go *poof* in a few weeks. 

Until then, I'll just keep encouraging Middleman to contact the ex-wife and tell her what was said.

[skubikky]

Why are you inserting yourself into someone else's personal life?

People that you refer to as acquaintances.

If your friend "Middleman" wants to vent...fine.
Stay out of it.

Focus on your own personal business, not other people's.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Middleman needs someone to vent to and I am a "safe" party for that

I guess I am a dick.  My response to him venting would be "Then what do you plan to about it?  Because honestly I don't want to hear about someone else's drama all the time.  Either poop or get off the pot".

I hate being people's place to "vent" about stuff like this.   All it does is drag me into the drama.   He can go vent to the proper authorities if he has any kind of proof that this is going on.  If he doesn't then shut up and mind your own business.  Maybe he should stop being friends with these people if the situation upsets him so much?

[buystoys]

Feb 23, 2016 8:30:36 GMT -5 skubikky said:

Why are you inserting yourself into someone else's personal life?

People that you refer to as acquaintances.

If your friend "Middleman" wants to vent...fine.
Stay out of it.

Focus on your own personal business, not other people's.

Gotcha! 

[buystoys]

Feb 23, 2016 9:29:28 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Middleman needs someone to vent to and I am a "safe" party for that

I guess I am a dick.  My response to him venting would be "Then what do you plan to about it?  Because honestly I don't want to hear about someone else's drama all the time.  Either poop or get off the pot".

I hate being people's place to "vent" about stuff like this.   All it does is drag me into the drama.   He can go vent to the proper authorities if he has any kind of proof that this is going on.  If he doesn't then shut up and mind your own business.  Maybe he should stop being friends with these people if the situation upsets him so much?

No, you're not a dick.  And, as I said, this is a complicated situation.  Middleman can't get out of the relationship right now and, unfortunately, some of the crap indirectly impacts DH and me.  As I stated earlier, there is a possibility that all this goes *poof* shortly.  I hope it does.

[zibazinski]

You can report it all you want. Nothing will ever be done. It's job security to have people taking from taxpayers.

[buystoys]

Well, I thought this would all go *poof* in two to six weeks, but it went *BOOM* this week.  Sis (Middleman) has returned the daughter to the acquaintances per instructions from the Legal Guardian.  Sis also burnt all the bridges with the acquaintances and the Legal Guardian as she will NOT put her family through this disruption again.  This is not the first time Sis has returned this child to them, but it will be the last.

Now we all just have to write this child off and hope that her mother manages to stay off drugs and keep her in school this time.  Personally, I don't expect that to happen.  Fifth time is a charm?

Sis did pass along the information to the ex-wife and is in the process of packing all the child's belongings to take to the acquaintances today.