Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 10:56:07 GMT -5
Or they pitfalls of prejudice as the case may be. Link
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 19, 2016 11:07:40 GMT -5
IDK, McAfee is recommending that the FBI use questionable tactics to break into the IPhone. I bet there's better 'morality' between a 'back door' that Apple Builds in and something that a 'hacker' creates for themselves (and then sells to the highest bidders or passes out for free - thus causing chaos and mayhem) Are you really sure McAfee and his employees won't spill the beans or change the legal landscape for ALL cell phone providing companies? What if McAfee benefits monetarily (more so than just from the job with the FBI)?
Of course everyone involved in this Apple, FBI, hackers all have the Best intentions and deep regard for Public Safety...
I suspect most of the dust up has to do with corporate Laws (and who is/will be responsible for what) rather than any sort of 'moral' values...
Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate - because this is about way more than just ONE phone and ONE situation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 11:11:19 GMT -5
I agree with you on your point Tiny. What I found interesting was the reason that the FBI didn't have the skill set to do it themselves once they have a warrant that gives them legal permission to do it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 19, 2016 11:16:22 GMT -5
I didn't realize that McAfee had an inside look into the FBI's hiring processes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 11:32:25 GMT -5
Frank Abagnale (from the movie Catch Me If You Can) ended up "working" for the FBI after his felony convictions as part of his early release, I wonder if they do anything like that anymore that we just don't know about.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale
"In 1974, after he had served less than five years of his 12-year sentence at Federal Corrections Institute facility in Petersburg, Virginia, the United States federal government released him on the condition that he help the federal authorities, without pay, to investigate crimes committed by fraud and scam artists, and sign in once a week."
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 19, 2016 11:42:30 GMT -5
I agree with you on your point Tiny . What I found interesting was the reason that the FBI didn't have the skill set to do it themselves once they have a warrant that gives them legal permission to do it. Even that reason is a bit of a joke... because it's so obvious that the BEST technical people look weird and don't behave at all like any large mainstream group. ::eye roll:: ADDED: McAfee uses an out dated (maybe internet audience friendly?) stereotype to describe the hackers the FBI should be using... I suspect the FBI (and other company's) may miss out on talented people not because of the way they look, talk, or act - but because they've been convicted of some crime (a felon). Not because they have Purple hair and very visible tattoos. I guess what I'm saying is the example you picked isn't a very good example of why diversity is a good thing... it's got a lot of 'read between the lines' stuff going on in it -- that's not really about diversity...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 12:32:41 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 12:32:53 GMT -5
Or name.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 19, 2016 12:43:10 GMT -5
Frank Abagnale (from the movie Catch Me If You Can) ended up "working" for the FBI after his felony convictions as part of his early release, I wonder if they do anything like that anymore that we just don't know about.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Abagnale
"In 1974, after he had served less than five years of his 12-year sentence at Federal Corrections Institute facility in Petersburg, Virginia, the United States federal government released him on the condition that he help the federal authorities, without pay, to investigate crimes committed by fraud and scam artists, and sign in once a week." I think its a brilliant way of keeping those evil geniuses brain power under control and turn them into good instead of evil. Those hackers overseas - they are brilliant but they don't have an outlet to their goods...and see what is happening?
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 19, 2016 13:10:12 GMT -5
Or they pitfalls of prejudice as the case may be. LinkSomehow when I see 24-inch purple mohawk, 10-gauge ear piercings, and a tattooed face who demands to smoke weed while working it doesn't strike me 'wow, intelligent'! I supposed FBI could hire them and keep them somewhere hidden and have a sign in blood papers that they will never mention their association with such organization. Otherwise 'F; will supposed to be read as Freak Bureau of Investigation. Not cool for FBI.
I used to work with a brilliant guy who was never promoted because he couldn't be present at the board of directors meeting with all these tattoos coming out of a collar and sleeves. WHO would listen to the member who look like this? Its a joke! Right?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 19, 2016 15:00:34 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices. And I strongly suspect the FBI (and their HR department and their Lawyers) adhere to strict anti discrimination guidelines. So, 24 inch Mohawk sporting, big earring, tattoo'd super Hacker - isn't being discriminated against because of their hair, jewelry choices or tattoos... it's more likely that the reason the Super Hackers aren't getting hired is because they can't pass a drug test (that bit about the smoking weed) or have some other thing in their background (some sort of criminal conviction which isn't all that uncommon - when people are young they do stuff they shouldn't) or some other something that goes a foul of what they legally looking for in a potential job candidate. The FBI most likely isn't hiring well heeled/well dressed conforming to "professional" Super Hackers either - if they can't pass a drug test, or had a run in with the law, and possible some other stuff as well...
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Feb 19, 2016 15:32:43 GMT -5
Very few if any of the tatooed faces/ bodies, make it to work for any federal entity. It is a great risk to hire such an individual with a criminal past and give him unhindered access to sensitive information. If said individual is that good that the FBI say, would need his assistance then it is safe to assume that he will find a way around all the supervision they put on him and divulge information that should not be revealed. How can you keep tabs on him when he is admittedly the best at getting things that no one else can? Unless reason to trust him is given/proven, the risk may not be worth taking.
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Feb 19, 2016 16:08:04 GMT -5
A friend of my college roommate was in consideration for a position at the FBI. She had to give them the names of five friends to serve as character references. Two agents came to our apartment and interviewed my roommate for almost an hour. She said they asked her questions like "have you ever seen applicant friend drunk" and "has applicant friend ever smoked pot". Then they asked for the names of five other mutual friends to confirm the information. My roommate was stressed out because she had been friends with this girl since high school, so she had seen her drunk a few times and knew she tried pot once. She didn't want to lie because everyone's answers had to match or at least be in the same ball park. I am not sure if her friend got the job, but I imagine that if the FBI limits its agents to people who have never been drunk or tried pot, it is probably a very skewed group of people.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Feb 19, 2016 16:25:06 GMT -5
Back in 2008 I heard they had to start allowing people who had tried pot. They couldn't fill positions. I think it was a you could have tried it once or twice thing. Couldn't be a regular smoker.
Now the girl I know who was CIA and wiped out of the system a couple years ago they probably can't have ever been drunk! We were planning a trip to the Bahamas or something like that. It got killed because she didn't have a passport. They took it away from her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 16:27:46 GMT -5
Why?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 16:29:30 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices. First of all, isn't not hiring someone because they are a convicted felon the opposite of not hiring them "with nothing to go on".
Second of all, assuming that the only talented computer types have mohawks, piercings, face tattoos, and demand to smoke weed at work and earn half a mil a year is not only completely stupid, but prejudiced against the undyed, unmohawked, unpierced, untattooed and unhigh.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 16:33:07 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices. First of all, isn't not hiring someone because they are a convicted felon the opposite of not hiring them "with nothing to go on".
Second of all, assuming that the only talented computer types have mohawks, piercings, face tattoos, and demand to smoke weed at work and earn half a mil a year is not only completely stupid, but prejudiced against the undyed, unmohawked, unpierced, untattooed and unhigh.
Assuming that people with mohawks, piercings etc have a felony conviction is what the prejudice is. There is nothing to indicate that these people do. McAfee didn't say that those people are the only talented computer hackers, but that a lot of them are. And you lose a lot of talent if you won't employ them.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 16:36:46 GMT -5
First of all, isn't not hiring someone because they are a convicted felon the opposite of not hiring them "with nothing to go on".
Second of all, assuming that the only talented computer types have mohawks, piercings, face tattoos, and demand to smoke weed at work and earn half a mil a year is not only completely stupid, but prejudiced against the undyed, unmohawked, unpierced, untattooed and unhigh.
Assuming that people with mohawks, piercings etc have a felony conviction is what the prejudice is. There is nothing to indicate that these people do. McAfee didn't say that those people are the only talented computer hackers, but that a lot of them are. And you lose a lot of talent if you won't employ them. He made a very prejudiced assumption how talented people look, dress and behave, but you liked this one so you support it.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 16:39:04 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices. I may be misremembering this, but I feel like in some old threads you were very strongly in favor of women wearing makeup and looking polished, etc. Are you now saying that how one chooses to present oneself does not matter at all? That is does not and should not influence people's opinions about you in any way?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 19, 2016 16:52:09 GMT -5
I didn't realize that McAfee had an inside look into the FBI's hiring processes. This is pretty much it. This is all really conjecture by Mcafee. We don't really know who the FBI does and does not use, how good their existing hakers are vs. the competition ect. One serious concern for the FBI would be hiring someone without a criminal conviction.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 17:01:17 GMT -5
I didn't realize that McAfee had an inside look into the FBI's hiring processes. He also apparently has the inside scoop on who the Russians and Chinese are hiring to do their super secret hacking.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 19, 2016 17:42:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't hire them, either. We have a dress code and pretty much everything you listed would violate it. And we also have a "no drugs" policy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 19:46:00 GMT -5
Assuming that people with mohawks, piercings etc have a felony conviction is what the prejudice is. There is nothing to indicate that these people do. McAfee didn't say that those people are the only talented computer hackers, but that a lot of them are. And you lose a lot of talent if you won't employ them. He made a very prejudiced assumption how talented people look, dress and behave, but you liked this one so you support it. I don't see that he was excluding clean cut folks as being talented hackers, more that not all talented hackers are clean cut or traditional. He was making a point about those that are being excluded, there's no need to mention those that are being included.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 19:47:00 GMT -5
I didn't realize that McAfee had an inside look into the FBI's hiring processes. He also apparently has the inside scoop on who the Russians and Chinese are hiring to do their super secret hacking. I would actually expect someone that hires the same talent to know where these people are being employed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 19:49:18 GMT -5
And that would be the definition of prejudice, making an assumption about a person's character with nothing to go on but their race, sex or fashion choices. I may be misremembering this, but I feel like in some old threads you were very strongly in favor of women wearing makeup and looking polished, etc. Are you now saying that how one chooses to present oneself does not matter at all? That is does not and should not influence people's opinions about you in any way? LOL totally different conversation. And even in that conversation one thing I did not say it indicated was your ability to do a job.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 22:03:10 GMT -5
He made a very prejudiced assumption how talented people look, dress and behave, but you liked this one so you support it. I don't see that he was excluding clean cut folks as being talented hackers, more that not all talented hackers are clean cut or traditional. He was making a point about those that are being excluded, there's no need to mention those that are being included. You don't? So what does he mean when he says the best ones don't work there because they won't hire the purple mohawked drug users? Because it sounds like he's saying if you're not those things you're not the best. Right? And they are decades behind the people who do hire those people. But you're going to argue that what he means is they are all equally talented.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 22:12:27 GMT -5
I may be misremembering this, but I feel like in some old threads you were very strongly in favor of women wearing makeup and looking polished, etc. Are you now saying that how one chooses to present oneself does not matter at all? That is does not and should not influence people's opinions about you in any way? LOL totally different conversation. And even in that conversation one thing I did not say it indicated was your ability to do a job. LOL You either think how you choose to present yourself matters or it doesn't. You can't one minute think it's really important and then turn around and claim that no one should ever have any impression of you based on the choices you make about how to present yourself and if they dare make an impression of you they are somehow a prejudiced, ignorant, close minded bigot. If you think that someone isn't trying to say something about themselves to the world by having their face tattooed, you're mistaken. You don't get a face tattoo to be subtle, you don't style your hair into a purple mohawk because it's low maintenance, you don't get giant ear gauges because they are comfy. You do these things to be noticed, to get a reaction. There's no guarantee all those reactions are going to be favorable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 22:13:54 GMT -5
I don't see that he was excluding clean cut folks as being talented hackers, more that not all talented hackers are clean cut or traditional. He was making a point about those that are being excluded, there's no need to mention those that are being included. You don't? So what does he mean when he says the best ones don't work there because they won't hire the purple mohawked drug users? Because it sounds like he's saying if you're not those things you're not the best. Right? And they are decades behind the people who do hire those people. But you're going to argue that what he means is they are all equally talented. I reread it. In my mind I had added the word all, as in "why don't all the best hackers work for the FBI". So he might have meant to exclude clean cut people. I didn't. I was thinking not all the best hackers are clean cut.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 22:18:22 GMT -5
LOL totally different conversation. And even in that conversation one thing I did not say it indicated was your ability to do a job. LOL You either think how you choose to present yourself matters or it doesn't. You can't one minute think it's really important and then turn around and claim that no one should ever have any impression of you based on the choices you make about how to present yourself and if they dare make an impression of you they are somehow a prejudiced, ignorant, close minded bigot.
No, I don't really have any strong feelings about makeup one way or the other. In that thread I was just tired of the non makeup people dissing makeup folks as superficial. And there are situations where you should let people have that freedom.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Feb 19, 2016 22:20:37 GMT -5
LOL You either think how you choose to present yourself matters or it doesn't. You can't one minute think it's really important and then turn around and claim that no one should ever have any impression of you based on the choices you make about how to present yourself and if they dare make an impression of you they are somehow a prejudiced, ignorant, close minded bigot.
No, I don't really have any strong feelings about makeup one way or the other. In that thread I was just tired of the non makeup people dissing makeup folks as superficial. And there are situations where you should let people have that freedom. There is no one talking about taking away that freedom. No one. Not every person is a perfect fit for every workplace. That's life.
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