moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 13, 2016 13:53:43 GMT -5
I really struggle with people's excuses for driving in winter/snow. Where you choose to live and what you choose to drive are not my problem. You're expected to come to work and work. If you can't do so for whatever reason, take a PTO day but don't expect my sympathy or other people to pick up your slack. What I hope you realize being a team member is that you do impact your colleagues when you're not there. It seems to me like you want to be paid well to do the bare minimum. I don't like people like that on my staff.
I am a bit taken aback by your attitude. My impression of you has been very positive and hard working. Some of what you've shared makes me question that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 13, 2016 14:21:12 GMT -5
It's interesting that on the "job" thread people are saying that you shouldn't have any loyalty to the employer bc they have no loyalty to you. But here people are telling OP that she should pretty much disregard any and all personal safety concerns so a report can be issued. For the record, OP - I don't know if you should really be killing yourself getting CPA license. I know plenty of people who work in small CPA firms doing CPA work without having a license. They just don't sign the return Ava said in her op that she could work from home if she had the work software on her computer. She failed to get this completed, then her manager found mistakes that needed corrected. I know ym-ers have so much money they can tell their bosses to suck it but some of us don't. I live in an area where it snows up to four months out of the year. If I didn't come into work every time there is snow falling I would no longer be emp!oyed. I do pay attention to the weather and try to tailor things accordingly. However there are times I need to drive or hitch a ride with my dad or husband. For routine lab crap no I am not going in if possible. If it is an emergency with the animals or I made a serious mistake that needs correction I'll have to weigh going in vs my need for a paycheck. Bad weather is a part of life. I have leave time coming out my eyeballs and a fairly flexible employer but even they expect me to at least attempt to show up regularly during the snow season. DH has worked for employers that would terminate you if you called in during bad weather. His is not the only one around here with that attitude.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 13, 2016 20:48:02 GMT -5
It's interesting that on the "job" thread people are saying that you shouldn't have any loyalty to the employer bc they have no loyalty to you. But here people are telling OP that she should pretty much disregard any and all personal safety concerns so a report can be issued. For the record, OP - I don't know if you should really be killing yourself getting CPA license. I know plenty of people who work in small CPA firms doing CPA work without having a license. They just don't sign the return Ava said in her op that she could work from home if she had the work software on her computer. She failed to get this completed, then her manager found mistakes that needed corrected. I know ym-ers have so much money they can tell their bosses to suck it but some of us don't.
I live in an area where it snows up to four months out of the year. If I didn't come into work every time there is snow falling I would no longer be emp!oyed. I do pay attention to the weather and try to tailor things accordingly. However there are times I need to drive or hitch a ride with my dad or husband. For routine lab crap no I am not going in if possible. If it is an emergency with the animals or I made a serious mistake that needs correction I'll have to weigh going in vs my need for a paycheck. Bad weather is a part of life. I have leave time coming out my eyeballs and a fairly flexible employer but even they expect me to at least attempt to show up regularly during the snow season. DH has worked for employers that would terminate you if you called in during bad weather. His is not the only one around here with that attitude. While I don't and never did fall under the category of having that much money, I would have to be starving to death to do certain things for a job. I paid my dues when I was first starting out and did all kinds of things for a "job". Looking back it wasn't coming to work sick or driving in the snow that build me a solid reputation and an excellent resume. It was consistent performance and responsibility.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 13, 2016 20:56:20 GMT -5
I really struggle with people's excuses for driving in winter/snow. Where you choose to live and what you choose to drive are not my problem. You're expected to come to work and work. If you can't do so for whatever reason, take a PTO day but don't expect my sympathy or other people to pick up your slack. What I hope you realize being a team member is that you do impact your colleagues when you're not there. It seems to me like you want to be paid well to do the bare minimum. I don't like people like that on my staff. I am a bit taken aback by your attitude. My impression of you has been very positive and hard working. Some of what you've shared makes me question that. See, and I wouldn't want to have a person like that as my boss. There has to be mutual trust and respect. As a manager, you have to trust me that I will get my work done. As an employee, I have to trust you that you won't judge my performance based on a few days out of the year. Even with all the snow we had here last year, storm after storm after storm, if you count the total number of days someone might have had a problem getting to work - that number is very small compared to the entire year. I can not imagine people being fired bc they missed a handful of days *you as a general you, not Moneymaven in particular
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 13, 2016 21:09:18 GMT -5
I live in the land of lake effect snow. I've called in due to weather: never. They closed the office once for a blizzard, and closed a little early a few times due to bad weather. I may have been an hour late once or twice due to being snowed in. People in my area are expected to deal with it. I've had horrible commutes to school and home. Profs didn't give much slack for weather either. You live here, you should know how to deal with it. So, the one person out of everyone who's dealing with the same weather that calls in, they stick out-- and not in a good way. The older AP lady who lived in a more remote area who got snowed in occasionally-- she got some slack. Everyone else got themselves to work-- even in the shitty weather.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 14, 2016 9:47:07 GMT -5
Ava said in her op that she could work from home if she had the work software on her computer. She failed to get this completed, then her manager found mistakes that needed corrected. I know ym-ers have so much money they can tell their bosses to suck it but some of us don't.
I live in an area where it snows up to four months out of the year. If I didn't come into work every time there is snow falling I would no longer be emp!oyed. I do pay attention to the weather and try to tailor things accordingly. However there are times I need to drive or hitch a ride with my dad or husband. For routine lab crap no I am not going in if possible. If it is an emergency with the animals or I made a serious mistake that needs correction I'll have to weigh going in vs my need for a paycheck. Bad weather is a part of life. I have leave time coming out my eyeballs and a fairly flexible employer but even they expect me to at least attempt to show up regularly during the snow season. DH has worked for employers that would terminate you if you called in during bad weather. His is not the only one around here with that attitude. While I don't and never did fall under the category of having that much money, I would have to be starving to death to do certain things for a job. I paid my dues when I was first starting out and did all kinds of things for a "job". Looking back it wasn't coming to work sick or driving in the snow that build me a solid reputation and an excellent resume. It was consistent performance and responsibility. So your never go in if its snowing? It's hard to build a reputation if you're gone svereal weeks for four months out of the year. I don't go in during a blizzard but if we're only talking one to two inches I can handle driving in it just fine. My employer is pretty flexible and they don't expect me to die getting into work. However they do expect me to do my job. My projects aren't going to get done if I am out anywhere from the end of October to the middle of march. That's how long it can snow around here. And if I want to stay home its up to me to pay attention to the weather and plan work accordingly. Ava was supposed to have software loaded onto her computer to work from home and had plenty of time to accomplish that. She forgot. Then her boss found mistakes that needed correcting If you still refuse to come in fine but you have to take the lumps that come with it. I'm an emergency contact for the animals. I can decide I am not coming in it can't be that big a deal but if I'm wrong the consequences are on me. It's just a part of life living in the Midwest. If I never wanted to face driving in snow I'd move.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 14, 2016 10:18:16 GMT -5
While I don't and never did fall under the category of having that much money, I would have to be starving to death to do certain things for a job. I paid my dues when I was first starting out and did all kinds of things for a "job". Looking back it wasn't coming to work sick or driving in the snow that build me a solid reputation and an excellent resume. It was consistent performance and responsibility. So your never go in if its snowing? It's hard to build a reputation if you're gone svereal weeks for four months out of the year. I don't go in during a blizzard but if we're only talking one to two inches I can handle driving in it just fine. My employer is pretty flexible and they don't expect me to die getting into work. However they do expect me to do my job. My projects aren't going to get done if I am out anywhere from the end of October to the middle of march. That's how long it can snow around here. And if I want to stay home its up to me to pay attention to the weather and plan work accordingly. Ava was supposed to have software loaded onto her computer to work from home and had plenty of time to accomplish that. She forgot. Then her boss found mistakes that needed correcting If you still refuse to come in fine but you have to take the lumps that come with it. I'm an emergency contact for the animals. I can decide I am not coming in it can't be that big a deal but if I'm wrong the consequences are on me. It's just a part of life living in the Midwest. If I never wanted to face driving in snow I'd move. Why do people have a tendency to go to extremes? I never said you shouldn't go to work if there is a snowflake on the ground. But I think it's ludicrous that some on here think that employees should get to work no matter what bc "that's where they choose to live". There has to be some kind of common sense and balance. OP said that driving conditions were pretty bad and she already missed half a day of work due to car problems. If I was her manager and she showed up at 2-3pm on that kind of day, I would have thought she had no common sense. Now, her not getting a software installed on her laptop is a completely different issue. That - I would have a much bigger problem with, bc it shows that an employee is not very good at simple planning. To me that says a lot more than not willing to drive in dangerous weather conditions. As a side note - I am so tired of people saying "just move". Where are we all suppose to live? Is there a place that that has the perfect weather, LCOL, great schools, excellent jobs opportunities for any profession and a lovely landscape? Should the entire country move there? Just bc someone lives in a 4 season state doesn't mean they have to risk their lives for a job, especially with all the technology we have now. BTW, in my experience, managers who weren't nazis when it came to things like this got much better productivity from their employees in general. Responsible and hard working employees don't take for granted the flexibility and certain accommodations and make up for "special" days 3 fold.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Feb 14, 2016 11:00:39 GMT -5
As others have mentioned where you live impacts how you are perceived when you don't go into work because of the weather. Typically, my employer is pretty reasonable. If the weather is bad enough for the schools to close then they don't have too much of an issue with you taking an inclement weather day. If the local schools are open then an employee does get a reputation that they are being silly.
For example, we have a newer employee who lives 30 miles away, and she called in several days in a row because of the weather (the schools were open in her district). Everyone else in the office made it in. As a result, that newer employee is developing a reputation about being a drama queen and unreliable.
Ava probably has been at her employer long enough to establish some good will, so not going in when the weather is bad probably isn't going to hurt her, especially on top of taking off time to study for exams and taking extended (I consider anything over a week to ten days as extended) vacations. But, I suspect a new employer wouldn't be as generous.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 14, 2016 11:43:30 GMT -5
Even though I live in New England where snow is a given, our schools are closed fairly often. And so does the govt.
No one wants to be responsible for other people getting hurt. Can you imagine the drama and the law suits if they don't close the school and school bus gets into accident? But hey, if you are an employee of a private company - who really cares? You get hurt, you get your car totaled - all on you! So, until that happens, you better come to work come hell or high water!
Oh and if you to get into accident while driving in bad weather conditions, you better go straight to a rental car place and drive to work anyway!! Or you won't be considered a good employee.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 14, 2016 12:08:07 GMT -5
Even though I live in New England where snow is a given, our schools are closed fairly often. And so does the govt. No one wants to be responsible for other people getting hurt. Can you imagine the drama and the law suits if they don't close the school and school bus gets into accident? But hey, if you are an employee of a private company - who really cares? You get hurt, you get your car totaled - all on you! So, until that happens, you better come to work come hell or high water! Oh and if you to get into accident while driving in bad weather conditions, you better go straight to a rental car place and drive to work anyway!! Or you won't be considered a good employee. I was the one that suggested that Ava rent a car. And the reason I suggested it was that the sum of her recent experience was suggesting that her employer was concerned with her performance. At that point, she had neglected to get the correct equipment so she could work at home, her employer had discovered what appeared to be several large mistakes in her work and wanted her to see him immediately to address the mistakes, she had recently taken large amounts of time off first for school, then for projects, then because she was worried about weather then because of car troubles...
If Ava had a history of solid work, hadn't recently taken large amounts of time off, hadn't neglected to get the correct equipment to work at home, hadn't made several large mistakes and her employer didn't seem angry and wanted to see her immediately, then renting a car to get in would seem unnecessary since her track record of being solid should be enough to carry her through a few hiccups.
But I guess if you need a dramatic argument and want to say that someone told her to leave the scene of an accident to rent a car to drive into work to be considered a good employee, go ahead.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 14, 2016 12:34:06 GMT -5
So your never go in if its snowing? It's hard to build a reputation if you're gone svereal weeks for four months out of the year. I don't go in during a blizzard but if we're only talking one to two inches I can handle driving in it just fine. My employer is pretty flexible and they don't expect me to die getting into work. However they do expect me to do my job. My projects aren't going to get done if I am out anywhere from the end of October to the middle of march. That's how long it can snow around here. And if I want to stay home its up to me to pay attention to the weather and plan work accordingly. Ava was supposed to have software loaded onto her computer to work from home and had plenty of time to accomplish that. She forgot. Then her boss found mistakes that needed correcting If you still refuse to come in fine but you have to take the lumps that come with it. I'm an emergency contact for the animals. I can decide I am not coming in it can't be that big a deal but if I'm wrong the consequences are on me. It's just a part of life living in the Midwest. If I never wanted to face driving in snow I'd move. Why do people have a tendency to go to extremes? I never said you shouldn't go to work if there is a snowflake on the ground. But I think it's ludicrous that some on here think that employees should get to work no matter what bc "that's where they choose to live". There has to be some kind of common sense and balance. OP said that driving conditions were pretty bad and she already missed half a day of work due to car problems. If I was her manager and she showed up at 2-3pm on that kind of day, I would have thought she had no common sense. Now, her not getting a software installed on her laptop is a completely different issue. That - I would have a much bigger problem with, bc it shows that an employee is not very good at simple planning. To me that says a lot more than not willing to drive in dangerous weather conditions. As a side note - I am so tired of people saying "just move". Where are we all suppose to live? Is there a place that that has the perfect weather, LCOL, great schools, excellent jobs opportunities for any profession and a lovely landscape? Should the entire country move there? Just bc someone lives in a 4 season state doesn't mean they have to risk their lives for a job, especially with all the technology we have now. BTW, in my experience, managers who weren't nazis when it came to things like this got much better productivity from their employees in general. Responsible and hard working employees don't take for granted the flexibility and certain accommodations and make up for "special" days 3 fold. I think my post was taken to extremes in your interpretation as well. I am actually quite reasonable about the snow with my staff and have a protocol that's followed. They all know what to expect and I know who I can expect to follow it and those who try to manipulate it. I actually am extremely flexible for all reasons, not just weather. As you said, technology allows this, particularly in my industry. I don't evaluate performance on hours in the chair or office, they are evaluated on quality of work. It also falls in tandem with those who frequently have issues or problems that they need flexibility for. Ava has openly shared that there are issues with the quality of her work, that she takes time from work to study, that she previously had issues at work taking extended time to travel home, etc. I think there is a pattern to the behavior that is being put on her employer instead of her taking some accountability. I do take issue with staff like that. They tend to be short timers. ETA: I really don't care where people live or what they drive. Again, personal choices. I have small kids and a decent commute to their care/schools. I have to account for all of those variables everyday. It's not my bosses job or that of my colleagues to plan around me for those reasons.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 12:49:41 GMT -5
It also falls in tandem with those who frequently have issues or problems that they need flexibility for. Ava has openly shared that there are issues with the quality of her work, that she takes time from work to study, that she previously had issues at work taking extended time to travel home, etc. I think there is a pattern to the behavior that is being put on her employer instead of her taking some accountability. I do take issue with staff like that. They tend to be short timers.
I think that this is the crux of it. Ava's boss has given her incredible latitude in going home for extended periods of time, taking time off for classes and to study for exams. She was given the opportunity to work from home in situations like this, and neglected to do what was necessary to do so.
For many employers, they would not think twice about an employee calling in with car trouble during a bad snow storm. Shit happens that you have no control over. However, Ava could have taken steps to ameliorate the impact that the car trouble/snow storm had on her job and didn't.
About driving in snow storms, if you live in an area where you get them, it is expected that you learn how to deal with them. Schools do not close as frequently in these areas as they do the rest of the US. It is Ava's responsibility to get snow tires, studded tires, chains or whatever else is necessary for her to increase her safety to get to work when her job stays open. Many employers do give some latitude with regards to snow, but some simply do not (or cannot - like a medical center/hospital).
What it boils down to is excuses. Ava's got a lot of them and there is going to come a time where an employer simply gets tired of them. I think that Ava's an incredibly hard worker - but not necessarily a smart worker. She needs to be both.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 14, 2016 14:05:00 GMT -5
It also falls in tandem with those who frequently have issues or problems that they need flexibility for. Ava has openly shared that there are issues with the quality of her work, that she takes time from work to study, that she previously had issues at work taking extended time to travel home, etc. I think there is a pattern to the behavior that is being put on her employer instead of her taking some accountability. I do take issue with staff like that. They tend to be short timers. Ava said she's average. She didn't say her boss said she did mediocre work at best. I find it surprising that work would support her educational efforts, if she was mediocre at best. I've never seen a job situation where mediocre workers get all the perks. I think I'm an average worker, but I don't really make mistakes. Literally..we have a process that I get someone else on the team to QC my work, and in 10 courses I put together for the semester...it's bad if there's 2 mistakes, total. Now my boss and my department head have a much better opinion of me that I have of myself. They think I'm fabulous. If I came here and said "I am a great worker. I rarely make a mistake. I've even improved processes so that I'm now doing the work of 5-6 people. I need little direction..I just do what needs to be done. I see my bosses maybe once a week, they stop in and say hello and move on. When I'm done with my work, I ask for more work..and keep checking in every week or two if there's been no additional work available. Well, wouldn't you all be looking at me like this . Even if it is absolutely true. Would it be more palatable that I take work/life balance very seriously, given the above description of myself.. vs. I'm an average worker? We also don't know how Eva's employer views work/life balance. Perhaps they also value it above everything else. That piece is missing.We are all assuming what we experience as Eva's. Except, well quite possibly, it's not. My place of work offers fabulous work/life balance. Because, honestly, it's the only perk that's left. There are no financial incentives at work to "reward" me. Furloughs and years of no raises aren't what I consider rewards for work well done. We have to pay more for insurance, etc. Your PTO is set from the day you start and never increases, even after working at my place of employment for 30 years. Thankfully, my employers are savvy enough to understand that work/life balance is something that can be used to encourage employees to work as smart/hard as possible.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 14, 2016 18:09:06 GMT -5
Even though I live in New England where snow is a given, our schools are closed fairly often. And so does the govt. No one wants to be responsible for other people getting hurt. Can you imagine the drama and the law suits if they don't close the school and school bus gets into accident? But hey, if you are an employee of a private company - who really cares? You get hurt, you get your car totaled - all on you! So, until that happens, you better come to work come hell or high water! Oh and if you to get into accident while driving in bad weather conditions, you better go straight to a rental car place and drive to work anyway!! Or you won't be considered a good employee. I was the one that suggested that Ava rent a car. And the reason I suggested it was that the sum of her recent experience was suggesting that her employer was concerned with her performance. At that point, she had neglected to get the correct equipment so she could work at home, her employer had discovered what appeared to be several large mistakes in her work and wanted her to see him immediately to address the mistakes, she had recently taken large amounts of time off first for school, then for projects, then because she was worried about weather then because of car troubles...
If Ava had a history of solid work, hadn't recently taken large amounts of time off, hadn't neglected to get the correct equipment to work at home, hadn't made several large mistakes and her employer didn't seem angry and wanted to see her immediately, then renting a car to get in would seem unnecessary since her track record of being solid should be enough to carry her through a few hiccups.
But I guess if you need a dramatic argument and want to say that someone told her to leave the scene of an accident to rent a car to drive into work to be considered a good employee, go ahead.
I wasn't really thinking OP when I made my comment, but managers in general. The reason I wasn't really commenting on OP bc frankly I think she has used up her "good will" a looong time ago. As a manager, *I* wouldn't have tolerated all those days off for studying knowing that she was leaving for vacations, and some other things. Not to mention that the whole not dowloading the software just screams complete lack of trying and planning. So I agree with your assessment of this particular case.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 14, 2016 19:34:21 GMT -5
I agree with its bullshit that an employer will threaten termination if you don't come in during a blizzard. I also think it's rotten of professors to deliberately schedule important tests worth a large chunk of your grade on days they know there will be bad weather to force students to come in.
That's not the attitude of everyone around here but its common enough that people are often put in an awkward position.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 20:45:22 GMT -5
I also think it's rotten of professors to deliberately schedule important tests worth a large chunk of your grade on days they know there will be bad weather to force students to come in.
In their defense, if the college is open then it is all things as usual. If a test is scheduled, it's been in the schedule since the beginning of the semester, long before any weather report has come out. You know that, Drama.
Secondly, most college students are already on campus and the one thing that I have to admit is that on the days where we've had a large snowfall and the campus is open, the ground crew does an excellent job of keeping the paths clear. It was usually more difficult for me to get the 20' from my apartment to my car than to get the 1/4 mile from the parking garage to my lab.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Feb 14, 2016 21:46:28 GMT -5
I think our grounds crews did try. However by junior year at the latest most of us lived off campus. And not everyone lived in the slums on top of campus either. But yes usually those are scheduled at the beginning of the semester.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 22:05:38 GMT -5
I went to a commuter school. It's less so now, but still has a lot of students (and staff) that commute.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 22:41:17 GMT -5
Regardless, instructors and professors do not make the decision to close the campus. The administration does.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 23:15:32 GMT -5
I live in one of those areas that shuts down when it snows. I'm really hesitant to drive on snow and ice. I had an accident in snow in my teens and I still can't shake the memory of sliding and not being able to control the car. It's iffy whether or not I'll drive to work in it. I worry about my own skills AND the drivers that do stupid things that even I know not to do. The last time I did (last year) I thought that even if I managed to not have a wreck, i might have a heart attack since it felt like my heart was about to beat out of my chest. I was a nervous wreck by the time I got to work and swore I wasn't doing that again.
It snows here maybe once or twice a year and if I feel like it's too bad for me to drive, I just don't worry about it. By now, people are more surprised if I show up when there's snow on the ground than if I don't. If I could avoid having to make the decision when it snowed by having the tools to work from home on those days, I'd have that set up the minute they said I could.
Several years ago, a co-worker was running late for work and speeding to get there. She had a wreck less than 5 minutes away and died at the scene. There was no snow on the ground and of course she shouldn't have been speeding, but that kind of put things in perspective for me concerning how much to risk trying to get to work or make it on time when something unusual happens. we were upset and sad about what happened, but the job kept rolling along without her.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 23:38:35 GMT -5
Regardless, instructors and professors do not make the decision to close the campus. The administration does. I know, but all but one time this occurred during a night class that was 3 plus hours long. As the night progressed, conditions deteriorated rapidly. Those instructors have a lot of leeway in letting class out early, or skipping breaks to get out early. Some did, but this one never did. He sucked as a teacher, too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 15, 2016 4:56:01 GMT -5
Regardless, instructors and professors do not make the decision to close the campus. The administration does. I know, but all but one time this occurred during a night class that was 3 plus hours long. As the night progressed, conditions deteriorated rapidly. Those instructors have a lot of leeway in letting class out early, or skipping breaks to get out early. Some did, but this one never did. He sucked as a teacher, too. They always do. I remember married teachers getting to their classes via snowmobile and both those asses took attendance. Attendance was part of your grade even in college. 3 absences? Automatic drop in grade.
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mamasita99
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 3, 2011 5:42:27 GMT -5
Posts: 1,623
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Post by mamasita99 on Feb 15, 2016 7:31:03 GMT -5
I know, but all but one time this occurred during a night class that was 3 plus hours long. As the night progressed, conditions deteriorated rapidly. Those instructors have a lot of leeway in letting class out early, or skipping breaks to get out early. Some did, but this one never did. He sucked as a teacher, too. They always do. I remember married teachers getting to their classes via snowmobile and both those asses took attendance. Attendance was part of your grade even in college. 3 absences? Automatic drop in grade. What a crappy thing to do, sounds like they just wanted to show off their toys. My university is very good about cancelling due to weather. They might be open in the morning, but if conditions deteriorate we get a text alert cancelling evening activities, etc. So many students and teachers commute, and this is such a congested area even on a good day, it doesn't take much for chaos to occur on the roads.
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