Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 10:39:13 GMT -5
and yes - I am including myself in internal equity considerations!!!
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 5, 2019 10:49:18 GMT -5
Well, that's one advantage to working for the government--all salaries are public. I'm not sure that makes up for being classified as the scum of the working world though.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 5, 2019 11:22:08 GMT -5
Well, that's one advantage to working for the government--all salaries are public. I'm not sure that makes up for being classified as the scum of the working world though. That was my opinion, too. However, they didn't know which step I was on within the GS scale.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 11:45:21 GMT -5
1) - Rukh - that does not sound good. The only time i have seen managers earn less than those they manage is in high end sales (think rainmakers in the multi million dollar range.) Does that in any way apply? 2) - What ever happened with the guy who was poached your idea? 3) Also, is it possible that your previous job underpaid you so severely that you settled for less than you should have, especially with your education and experience? Or that it has caused you to be perceived as being further down the food chain? 1) nope - nothing like that. this potentially new person just has high expectations! 2) Not sure where that proposal is, nor if and where my name may be on authors 3) Definitely, maybe! I negotiated the best I could and did a pretty good job! They could have had me for much less! Absolutely no regrets on that score, and we are expanding rapidly and my role is growing, so definitely will ask for a salary adjustment in the near future and then take my vita on the road if nothing else. I don't have to take any particular job, but I can see what is offered, and perhaps practice on the negotiation part. But again! that leads me to needing to publish, and I haven't don jack on that score. I will just limp along until my summer vacation, and then regroup and see where I am there. I'll try to do a little bit, but am not going to push it until I refresh a little.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 11:52:41 GMT -5
also - I am not quite at 8 months, and I do think given the big step up in title and responsibilities, that I am best served by 2-3 years.
But I will start looking after the 1 year mark if I don't get a big increase along the way. One thing I did find out that I am at the middle of the paygrade for the position we are hiring in for. Am I on that same paygrade? IDK!!!
But I will argue that I should be at least 1 grade above, and also/or push for salary adjustment based on the increased responsibilities since I took on the job.
With this new position, I will have double the number of direct and indirect reports since I started. And their might be another one on the horizon too. Just that management aspect is becoming a huge part of the job, and I also am expected to do the same level of analytic and consulting work as those under me.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 5, 2019 13:38:12 GMT -5
That doesn't really suprise me. That part seemed more of a HR thing. Do you know how much the other people you over see make? I think most companies keep it so people don't know what other people make. Honestly it seems more professional to me. this position is my direct report. How can I do my part on internal equity if I don't know anyone's salary? By being fair in your reviews and recommendations. Over all I would think the legal aspects of internal equity and internal equity when it comes to pay, benefits, ect... falls under the HR department. They should be keeping an eye on all the departments to make sure that it isn't just department based, but for the company over all. Do you know what your other direct reports make? If so then I would assume at some point you will find out. If not then why should you know what this one direct report makes? Do you also do other payroll aspect things for your direct reports like approve leave for them?
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Jun 5, 2019 13:54:56 GMT -5
My bosses have always known my salary, because it is drawn against the departmental budget. Not anymore, because I work for the state, but when I was in private employment. Well, they at least knew they had three people with X title making $YY, with benefit cost of $Z charged to the department. They might not know exactly who made which amount, but they could probably get it right within a thousand dollars or so. If you have access to the department budget for a few years it's usually pretty easy to figure out if you are number oriented. One place I worked the budget didn't list us by name but by job title and we only had one of each title in the department. That one was easy.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 14:12:14 GMT -5
this position is my direct report. How can I do my part on internal equity if I don't know anyone's salary? By being fair in your reviews and recommendations. If two comparably qualified and hard working individuals start at the same time and do the same work an initial pay inequity will never be resolved.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 14:13:21 GMT -5
this position is my direct report. How can I do my part on internal equity if I don't know anyone's salary? By being fair in your reviews and recommendations. Over all I would think the legal aspects of internal equity and internal equity when it comes to pay, benefits, ect... falls under the HR department. They should be keeping an eye on all the departments to make sure that it isn't just department based, but for the company over all. Do you know what your other direct reports make? If so then I would assume at some point you will find out. If not then why should you know what this one direct report makes? Do you also do other payroll aspect things for your direct reports like approve leave for them? And yes, I know the salary of everyone else.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 14:38:52 GMT -5
I have worked in places that have and have not known the salaries of those who were under me. For the places I didn't, raise's were based on reviews and you would receive between 1-5 percent based on your performance. If you felt like you should have a raise at a different time you would either bring it up to me or HR. We would contact the other and pretty much do another performance review, then HR would get in contact and discuss the actually dollar amount. These were pretty rare, but at both of those places from my own pay, and what I did know of what others told me they were on the higher end of the market. Personally I liked that those I saw daily or weekly didn't know what I was making it wasn't any of their business. In the places I worked where myself and the other mangers did know people's pay it become food for gossip, and I saw more then once where some one was hired on a higher amount based on personal reasons (they were friends at another job, knew them outside of work ect...) then qualifications. Or people would wine about someone else getting paid more then someone else because they just don't like the first person as much. Rukh- If you are unhappy about your pay or think you should be paid more on your merits, job description ect... Then bring it up. But to just say I should get paid more because this person is getting paid more, to me just doesn't seem like a good reason. It's based on job roles. I'm still learning what salary is customary in my field.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 14:52:33 GMT -5
My last comment here is that I wrote the jobs roles for the positions under me, with clear responsibility and qualifications steps up for each level.
This role has a lot less responsibility, no reports, a lot less stress.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 5, 2019 17:41:01 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about not knowing if you know the others. My guess would be once they are hired you will get all the information, including the pay range. I don't think you are being frozen out as much as HR isn't going to you with each step of negotiating. You or your boss (not sure which) approved the level that HR has to work in and now they are doing it. It seems like your company is growing a lot, and a lot of new positions are being opened. I would think that there will be some restructuring and job description changes as that happen as well. I believe you said there was room for this new position to grow with people under them in the future. Do you know if at that time, is the idea for this position to branch off and grow into a more lateral position to yours, or as it grow up, to push yours up as well? If the plan is for it to grow more lateral then I can see it making sense to offer this person something closer to your salary (or on the same level), if the idea is for it to push yours up then it does make sense that it starts at a level below yours. Another factor I can see being in play is if this position is between yours and your other direct reports is there a level between yours and theirs where it could fit in? Or could they be putting it at the level that it seems closer too?
It seems to me from what you post, you are being moved into a more management position and less of a boots on the ground position. I personally know that I have limited growth with what I want to do. I can see moving up to department head, but after that I would move away from directly working with students and into admin roles. As more departments, and positions are created under you I can see you slowly moving more to management position, a little at a time. Is this something you want? If not I would watch closely. If I had to guess from your post, I would say you don't want slide into a mostly or only management position in the future. I do wonder if your vision you have for yourself/position/future is the same as the companies?
Have you talked to your boss about opportunities to be published. This has always seemed important to you but seems to be falling more to the wayside with the other job duties. (Again I very much could be misreading and I do not meaning insulting or upsetting at all. I greatly respect all that you have accomplished and think from what I have read from you, you are an amazing, very driven person).
Over all I think you have a strong case from what you have posted for an increase in pay, no matter what this other person is offered and coming up on a year gives you a great time to have that conversation as well.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2019 18:03:03 GMT -5
this position is my direct report. How can I do my part on internal equity if I don't know anyone's salary? By being fair in your reviews and recommendations. Over all I would think the legal aspects of internal equity and internal equity when it comes to pay, benefits, ect... falls under the HR department. They should be keeping an eye on all the departments to make sure that it isn't just department based, but for the company over all. Do you know what your other direct reports make? If so then I would assume at some point you will find out. If not then why should you know what this one direct report makes? Do you also do other payroll aspect things for your direct reports like approve leave for them? Uhhh, yes bosses approve leave. They pass it on to HR to actually process it for my check, but all my bosses have to approve of my leave. And I believe my boss had to sign off on my STD paperwork too, but it's been 7+ years. My current company does it ass backwards, but my previous one my boss would get passed down a certain $ amount for merit increases - which he then needed to apply to everyone based on reviews. HRs don't operate to make it fair for all the employees - except maybe in the states that have made it illegal to pay men and women different (very very few states). If they were already doing that we wouldn't have these pay discrepancies.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 5, 2019 18:16:51 GMT -5
About 1/2 the places I worked in my direct boss approved my leave, the other 1/2 the person above them did. I wasn't trying to say that someone on the chain of command didn't approve it, just where on the chain of command that person is.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 18:32:16 GMT -5
www.inc.com/alison-green/can-we-just-assign-interview-dates-to-job-candidates.htmlLol, Alison addresses just this issue! "Yes. If you're truly managing people (and you're not, say, a team lead with only limited supervisory authority), part of your job is to ensure that your people are being appropriately compensated. Another part is to work to retain high performers, and salary is a big part of that. If you're being asked to manage people but told you can't know a fundamental part about their employment relationship with your organization, that's a problem and indicative of a pretty weird philosophy somewhere above you."
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 18:38:40 GMT -5
By being fair in your reviews and recommendations. Over all I would think the legal aspects of internal equity and internal equity when it comes to pay, benefits, ect... falls under the HR department. They should be keeping an eye on all the departments to make sure that it isn't just department based, but for the company over all. Do you know what your other direct reports make? If so then I would assume at some point you will find out. If not then why should you know what this one direct report makes? Do you also do other payroll aspect things for your direct reports like approve leave for them? Uhhh, yes bosses approve leave. They pass it on to HR to actually process it for my check, but all my bosses have to approve of my leave. And I believe my boss had to sign off on my STD paperwork too, but it's been 7+ years. My current company does it ass backwards, but my previous one my boss would get passed down a certain $ amount for merit increases - which he then needed to apply to everyone based on reviews. HRs don't operate to make it fair for all the employees - except maybe in the states that have made it illegal to pay men and women different (very very few states). If they were already doing that we wouldn't have these pay discrepancies. Yes I approve leave. Good HRs would be watching for this, and ours supposedly does. but I've been dealing with a pay inequity situation, with real lawsuit potential, and it's been pulling teeth to get real action.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 18:41:31 GMT -5
With leave approval it depends on who is responsible for overseeing work flow and deliverables, and assigning work based on that.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 5, 2019 18:47:04 GMT -5
Which then begs the question is what is the difference between and manger and team leader. And which one does your company defines you as.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 5, 2019 18:58:04 GMT -5
It's clear I'm not just a team leader!!
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2019 18:59:02 GMT -5
Team leaders usually pretty much are in charge of a project (or many) and are therefore in charge of assigning work and overseeing said work, but don't deal with any of the HR type manager things. They don't do raises or reviews or deal with any write ups - though the manager likely asks for their input.
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adela76
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Post by adela76 on Jun 6, 2019 19:38:35 GMT -5
www.inc.com/alison-green/can-we-just-assign-interview-dates-to-job-candidates.htmlLol, Alison addresses just this issue! "Yes. If you're truly managing people (and you're not, say, a team lead with only limited supervisory authority), part of your job is to ensure that your people are being appropriately compensated. Another part is to work to retain high performers, and salary is a big part of that. If you're being asked to manage people but told you can't know a fundamental part about their employment relationship with your organization, that's a problem and indicative of a pretty weird philosophy somewhere above you." Have you actually been told you can't know the salary? Have you talked to your boss/HR about your concerns about this particular potential hire? Or are you just privately stewing about it? Alison's most frequent advice is to just be direct! If you are truly concerned about Joe's salary being out of line relative to other team members, then it's your responsibility as a manager to speak up. Now.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 11, 2019 9:59:54 GMT -5
Well, I've got a new manager. He's popping in to do a meet and greet on Thursday. He starts 7/1/19. My coworkers are starting to dig into his profiles and found some contradictory info so we'll see how he is.
Newish coworker mouthed off to the wrong people last week and had a meeting today with Admin and my Capt. They're both back now.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 11, 2019 11:37:32 GMT -5
I’m giving some thought to asking for additional compensation soon. I am one of 25 or so full-time, year-round, employees at a single location retailer with 2 very distinct “crazy busy” sales seasons. We hire another 50 or so seasonal workers. I got my annual raise in March, which while generous in comparison to my colleagues, doesn’t make up for some recent legislative changes with respect to my state’s minimum wage laws. Is that a legitimate reason to ask for an increase? New hires make $1 more per hour than they did last year simply due to the new law, and therefore are closer to my rate which is $3.50 more per hour than minimum wage. Of course, I will also point out my performance during our most recent crazy-busy season, my suggestion to change the sales process in one area which improved efficiency and customer satisfaction, and my demonstrated improved product knowledge. Hmmm...typing it out makes me think the minimum wage increase is not the stronger argument and maybe should be my Plan B, yes?
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 11, 2019 11:59:23 GMT -5
Well still in job hunt. Had a lot of interest, but a lot of jobs in my general field are in a slightly different technology than I have worked with.
I have 2 onsite interviews scheduled, one next week and one at end of month. The one next week is preferred location, but the one at end of month is a better company (industry leader with great employee reputation) and job more related to past experience.
Friday was my last severance paycheck. Bonus will last another 3 months or so before we have to tap savings. Also doing some temp work to pick up a few (very few) bucks to help stretch money.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 11, 2019 15:03:44 GMT -5
Well, I've got a new manager. He's popping in to do a meet and greet on Thursday. He starts 7/1/19. My coworkers are starting to dig into his profiles and found some contradictory info so we'll see how he is.
Newish coworker mouthed off to the wrong people last week and had a meeting today with Admin and my Capt. They're both back now.
And newish coworker is on a PIP. Apparently tried to toss Capt. under the boss and the big boss (manager's boss) wasn't having any of it. Tried to toss former big boss under the bus and was shut down hard on that too.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jun 11, 2019 15:13:13 GMT -5
Well, I've got a new manager. He's popping in to do a meet and greet on Thursday. He starts 7/1/19. My coworkers are starting to dig into his profiles and found some contradictory info so we'll see how he is.
Newish coworker mouthed off to the wrong people last week and had a meeting today with Admin and my Capt. They're both back now.
And newish coworker is on a PIP. Apparently tried to toss Capt. under the boss and the big boss (manager's boss) wasn't having any of it. Tried to toss former big boss under the bus and was shut down hard on that too. I don’t see the newish coworker lasting long...
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 11, 2019 16:16:56 GMT -5
Same
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 11, 2019 16:50:39 GMT -5
I can only hope. He's lasted longer than anyone expected him to.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Jun 12, 2019 8:15:12 GMT -5
I’m giving some thought to asking for additional compensation soon. I am one of 25 or so full-time, year-round, employees at a single location retailer with 2 very distinct “crazy busy” sales seasons. We hire another 50 or so seasonal workers. I got my annual raise in March, which while generous in comparison to my colleagues, doesn’t make up for some recent legislative changes with respect to my state’s minimum wage laws. Is that a legitimate reason to ask for an increase? New hires make $1 more per hour than they did last year simply due to the new law, and therefore are closer to my rate which is $3.50 more per hour than minimum wage. Of course, I will also point out my performance during our most recent crazy-busy season, my suggestion to change the sales process in one area which improved efficiency and customer satisfaction, and my demonstrated improved product knowledge. Hmmm...typing it out makes me think the minimum wage increase is not the stronger argument and maybe should be my Plan B, yes? Yes, go with Plan B with a small nod to Plan A. The increased MW does impact you, but you've done a lot of other things to qualify for an adjustment in your pay.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 12, 2019 10:10:26 GMT -5
I can only hope. He's lasted longer than anyone expected him to. So how long is newish on the job now?
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