Confederate Battle Flag.

[Deleted]

Just for giggles, I'm going to do an experiment... I'm a member on another board and I'm going to change my Avatar there from what it is to The Stars & Bars... and see how long it takes someone to ask me "what state is that from"...

Any who may be a member on that other board and see me do this, know that I'm not going to limit myself to seeing the question "in public"... it may come via PM.

[billisonboard]

Jan 21, 2016 22:05:25 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

...

I'm VERY well versed on which flags are for what and I specifically DON'T use the appropriate one(s) because too many people would be confused. So when I use the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, I do so because I know OTHERS see it as "representative of the South" (even if some of them also mistakenly see it as "representative of Southern racism")

But you use one that confuses people because they have seen it used as a symbol of racism. Why not use the appropriate ones and educate people why it is appropriate?

[billisonboard]

Jan 21, 2016 22:23:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Just for giggles, I'm going to do an experiment... I'm a member on another board and I'm going to change my Avatar there from what it is to The Stars & Bars... and see how long it takes someone to ask me "what state is that from"...

Any who may be a member on that other board and see me do this, know that I'm not going to limit myself to seeing the question "in public"... it may come via PM.

Will you go to the same effort to educate people on their ignorance?

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 22:30:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 21, 2016 22:05:25 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

...

I'm VERY well versed on which flags are for what and I specifically DON'T use the appropriate one(s) because too many people would be confused. So when I use the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, I do so because I know OTHERS see it as "representative of the South" (even if some of them also mistakenly see it as "representative of Southern racism")

But you use one that confuses people because they have seen it used as a symbol of racism. Why not use the appropriate ones and educate people why it is appropriate?

Their usage (as racists) is inconsistent with it's TRUE meaning. So it's not "on me" to not use it because they misuse it.

Even though it doesn't stand for "All the Confederacy", it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values... Values I have in abundance (those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera). That's why there's no conflict with me using that one over one of the three "Flags of the Confederate States".

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 22:37:30 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 21, 2016 22:23:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Just for giggles, I'm going to do an experiment... I'm a member on another board and I'm going to change my Avatar there from what it is to The Stars & Bars... and see how long it takes someone to ask me "what state is that from"...

Any who may be a member on that other board and see me do this, know that I'm not going to limit myself to seeing the question "in public"... it may come via PM.

Will you go to the same effort to educate people on their ignorance?

I'm pretty well covered trying to clear up their ignorance on the reason for the secession and the Civil War themselves... maybe after I get them up to speed on that.

[billisonboard]

Jan 21, 2016 22:42:13 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 21, 2016 22:30:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

But you use one that confuses people because they have seen it used as a symbol of racism. Why not use the appropriate ones and educate people why it is appropriate?

Their usage (as racists) is inconsistent with it's TRUE meaning. So it's not "on me" to not use it because they misuse it.

Even though it doesn't stand for "All the Confederacy", it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values... Values I have in abundance (those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera). That's why there's no conflict with me using that one over one of the three "Flags of the Confederate States".

Even though you used upper case letters, it has no inherent "meaning". You have given it meaning just as others have.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 23:07:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 21, 2016 22:42:13 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Their usage (as racists) is inconsistent with it's TRUE meaning. So it's not "on me" to not use it because they misuse it.

Even though it doesn't stand for "All the Confederacy", it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values... Values I have in abundance (those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera). That's why there's no conflict with me using that one over one of the three "Flags of the Confederate States".

Even though you used upper case letters, it has no inherent "meaning". You have given it meaning just as others have.

You can believe that if you like. You'd be wrong... but you are free to be wrong.

It's inherent meaning was "put into it" when it was created (same as was true for Old Glory, during the Revolutionary War): "This flag stands for us". "Us" in the case of the various Confederate flags (the official ones for the new country and the ones for the various Armies and Regiments) means the southern people with their southern way of life.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 21:46:36 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 21, 2016 14:30:20 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

......You keep on looking for symbols to apply your racism to.  

Redneck isn't a race.   It's a stereotype anyway- just as likely that some southern white man wearing a wifebeater drinking Budweiser in a confederate flag koozie is a racist as is the chance some inner city black male with low pants and a hoodie is a 'thug'. 

I reserve the right to bash rednecks   

I guess you never heard the wings flap on that one.   

[ArchietheDragon]

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2016 1:04:39 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 15, 2016 15:41:03 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Now that all the media hoopla is over, all the people who had the Confederate battle flag displayed in various ways are still doing it, including my little plastic plate on the front of my p/u truck.  The two black guys I see a couple of times of week at the Casey's for morning coffee still have theirs on their tailgate also.  Various houses, business', etc. still fly as the status quo was before the media attention.  The only ones who made any money on it was people selling them, and media commercial time sold during the hyperbole.  Back to southern culture as usual.

So are you a racist or just a supporter of sovereign citizen criminals?  BTW- 'the two black guys I see' is a 100% prelude to 'I am not a racist but' comments.  You have black friends- good for you

It is a racist symbol period- on top of that before it was a racist symbol it was a symbol of treason.  Maybe you ought to read that Constitution you carry in your pocket

Fit's right in with the "I own gun's but" comments.   You would have to of read the previous thread on the Confederate flag a while back, to get the two black guys with the flag on the back of their truck story, but don't let me stop you from jumping to ignorant conclusions though.  I can almost hear them talking when they were designing the flag. "This is the one that whites will use to show their racial hatred for Negroes". 

[fishy999]

Jan 22, 2016 14:45:04 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Jan 16, 2016 1:04:39 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

So are you a racist or just a supporter of sovereign citizen criminals?  BTW- 'the two black guys I see' is a 100% prelude to 'I am not a racist but' comments.  You have black friends- good for you

It is a racist symbol period- on top of that before it was a racist symbol it was a symbol of treason.  Maybe you ought to read that Constitution you carry in your pocket

Fit's right in with the "I own gun's but" comments.   You would have to of read the previous thread on the Confederate flag a while back, to get the two black guys with the flag on the back of their truck story, but don't let me stop you from jumping to ignorant conclusions though.  I can almost hear them talking when they were designing the flag. "This is the one that whites will use to show their racial hatred for Negroes". 

Of course it was not designed as a racist symbol.  It is now.  Sorry that happened to the people that honestly view it as 'heritage'.  I'd suggest they find another symbol to use.  Hitler ruined the toothbrush moustache and the swastika- not too many people think about the history when they see one.

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2016 21:08:40 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 22, 2016 14:45:04 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Fit's right in with the "I own gun's but" comments.   You would have to of read the previous thread on the Confederate flag a while back, to get the two black guys with the flag on the back of their truck story, but don't let me stop you from jumping to ignorant conclusions though.  I can almost hear them talking when they were designing the flag. "This is the one that whites will use to show their racial hatred for Negroes". 

Of course it was not designed as a racist symbol.  It is now.  Sorry that happened to the people that honestly view it as 'heritage'.  I'd suggest they find another symbol to use.  Hitler ruined the toothbrush moustache and the swastika- not too many people think about the history when they see one.

No. It actually isn't.

[fishy999]

Jan 22, 2016 21:55:02 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 22, 2016 21:08:40 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Of course it was not designed as a racist symbol.  It is now.  Sorry that happened to the people that honestly view it as 'heritage'.  I'd suggest they find another symbol to use.  Hitler ruined the toothbrush moustache and the swastika- not too many people think about the history when they see one.

No. It actually isn't.

Oh yes it is- and it started back during the civil rights struggle.  The Nazis use it now- are you not aware of that?  

I'll give you credit- you are one person that will take your wrong headed comments to the grave- and you will die wrong

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2016 22:46:14 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 22, 2016 21:55:02 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

No. It actually isn't.

Oh yes it is- and it started back during the civil rights struggle.  The Nazis use it now- are you not aware of that?  

I'll give you credit- you are one person that will take your wrong headed comments to the grave- and you will die wrong

Unfortunately that's not something I can take credit for... as I don't take any "wrong headed comments" anywhere.

I am aware of misuse of it by several groups, and yes, the modern Nazis are one such group.

Are you suggesting all these flags are racist because a Nazi is flying them?


Is this racist carrying a "racist flag"?





People need to separate the icon (flag/pendant/emblem/whatever) from the idiot carrying/using/displaying it.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 22:23:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Just for giggles, I'm going to do an experiment... I'm a member on another board and I'm going to change my Avatar there from what it is to The Stars & Bars... and see how long it takes someone to ask me "what state is that from"...

Any who may be a member on that other board and see me do this, know that I'm not going to limit myself to seeing the question "in public"... it may come via PM.

On a strange note.... there seems to be something screwy with my experiment...

My "old" avatar on the other site keeps reasserting itself (it did it twice, but don't know how long the flag was up... so it's possible no one actually saw it). I think I fixed the problem though. I was using a "link" to a web hosted version. This time I replaced the uploaded avatar file. We'll see if that fixes it.

[tallguy]

I am aware of misuse of it by several groups, and yes, the modern Nazis are one such group.

You are as aware as I am that words and symbols get co-opted all the time.  The word "gay" for example has been almost completely stripped of its original meaning.  The word "liberal" is constantly under attack and misused.  You're down South.  What does the word "Coke" mean?  It can happen to a flag too. 

I have no problem with your complaint that the flag itself being racist is wrong.  I will continue to argue that slavery and the support for it at least touched upon if not led many more of the issues regarding the attempted secession and The Civil War than you are willing to admit.  That is fact.  And while many people do indeed consider the flag much more a symbol of their "Southern pride" than anything else, it is undeniable that many others attach a racist connotation to pretty much everything they do or believe.  That includes their Southern pride.  That may not include you, but it certainly includes a good number of your brothers.

[tallguy]

Even though it doesn't stand for "All the Confederacy", it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values... Values I have in abundance (those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera).

I was trying to let this go, but I can't.  Unless you are claiming that those values were absent in the North, then your statement makes little sense.  The war was not being fought because the North wanted to stamp out things like honor, loyalty, and family.     

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 5:08:23 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I am aware of misuse of it by several groups, and yes, the modern Nazis are one such group.

You are as aware as I am that words and symbols get co-opted all the time.  The word "gay" for example has been almost completely stripped of its original meaning.  The word "liberal" is constantly under attack and misused.  You're down South.  What does the word "Coke" mean?  It can happen to a flag too. 

I have no problem with your complaint that the flag itself being racist is wrong.  I will continue to argue that slavery and the support for it at least touched upon if not led many more of the issues regarding the attempted secession and The Civil War than you are willing to admit.  That is fact.  And while many people do indeed consider the flag much more a symbol of their "Southern pride" than anything else, it is undeniable that many others attach a racist connotation to pretty much everything they do or believe.  That includes their Southern pride.  That may not include you, but it certainly includes a good number of your brothers.

Actually, it's not fact. It's revisionist propaganda.

I don't deny that racists use the flag (it would be pretty foolish of a person that believes in facts to deny that fact)... so we are in agreement on that. However, their misuse of it shouldn't taint it any more than their misuse of a cross or Old Glory taints them.

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 5:16:53 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Even though it doesn't stand for "All the Confederacy", it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values... Values I have in abundance (those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera).

I was trying to let this go, but I can't.  Unless you are claiming that those values were absent in the North, then your statement makes little sense.  The war was not being fought because the North wanted to stamp out things like honor, loyalty, and family.     

They weren't (and still aren't) as prevalent in the North. But no, you are right, the War wasn't fought over those things. I never said the flags represented what the war was about though... did I? Nope. Not once.

The War was fought over exactly one thing: The dissolution of the United States into two separate countries. Seven of the Southern States said "Yes", a little later Lincoln said "No", after that four more Southern States said "Yes" (four of the Confederate states {Virginia-April 17, 1861
; Arkansas-May 6, 1861; North Carolina-May 20, 1861
; Tennessee-June 8, 1861} didn't actually secede until AFTER Lincoln decided to invade the now sovereign soil of the Confederacy). After several years and much bloodshed, Lincoln won.

[billisonboard]

Jan 23, 2016 19:24:49 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... (it would be pretty foolish of a person that believes in facts to deny that fact) ... However, their misuse of it shouldn't taint it any more than their misuse of a cross or Old Glory taints them.

These two statements capture something important. You go from a believer of "facts" to a wisher of "shouldn't". Well maybe it shouldn't but it is a fact it has. Time to move on.

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 19:45:33 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 23, 2016 19:24:49 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... (it would be pretty foolish of a person that believes in facts to deny that fact) ... However, their misuse of it shouldn't taint it any more than their misuse of a cross or Old Glory taints them.

These two statements capture something important. You go from a believer of "facts" to a wisher of "shouldn't". Well maybe it shouldn't but it is a fact it has. Time to move on.

It's not a "fact" that it has though... for it to be fact it would have to be true in all cases. It's obviously NOT true in the cases of people that know what the flag truly stands for and display it for those reasons only (like myself).

[tallguy]

Jan 23, 2016 19:37:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 23, 2016 5:16:53 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I was trying to let this go, but I can't.  Unless you are claiming that those values were absent in the North, then your statement makes little sense.  The war was not being fought because the North wanted to stamp out things like honor, loyalty, and family.     

They weren't (and still aren't) as prevalent in the North. But no, you are right, the War wasn't fought over those things. I never said the flags represented what the war was about though... did I? Nope. Not once.

The War was fought over exactly one thing: The dissolution of the United States into two separate countries. Seven of the Southern States said "Yes", a little later Lincoln said "No", after that four more Southern States said "Yes" (four of the Confederate states {Virginia-April 17, 1861
; Arkansas-May 6, 1861; North Carolina-May 20, 1861
; Tennessee-June 8, 1861} didn't actually secede until AFTER Lincoln decided to invade the now sovereign soil of the Confederacy). After several years and much bloodshed, Lincoln won.

What you said was, "...it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values...."

What inference were we SUPPOSED to make from that exactly? 

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 2:11:46 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 21, 2016 22:23:07 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Just for giggles, I'm going to do an experiment... I'm a member on another board and I'm going to change my Avatar there from what it is to The Stars & Bars... and see how long it takes someone to ask me "what state is that from"...

Any who may be a member on that other board and see me do this, know that I'm not going to limit myself to seeing the question "in public"... it may come via PM.

On a strange note.... there seems to be something screwy with my experiment...

My "old" avatar on the other site keeps reasserting itself (it did it twice, but don't know how long the flag was up... so it's possible no one actually saw it). I think I fixed the problem though. I was using a "link" to a web hosted version. This time I replaced the uploaded avatar file. We'll see if that fixes it.

Well... at least I know it wasn't something I'd done wrong... LOL.

Apparently the Admin doesn't want me to display that flag (not going to comment further on that though).

So.... no experiment. Well... I tried.

ETA: O.k. ... it may not have been the Admin that did it. Admin says he didn't know about it but could fix it. The flag is back up and we'll see what happens.

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2016 19:51:34 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Jan 23, 2016 19:37:05 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

They weren't (and still aren't) as prevalent in the North. But no, you are right, the War wasn't fought over those things. I never said the flags represented what the war was about though... did I? Nope. Not once.

The War was fought over exactly one thing: The dissolution of the United States into two separate countries. Seven of the Southern States said "Yes", a little later Lincoln said "No", after that four more Southern States said "Yes" (four of the Confederate states {Virginia-April 17, 1861; Arkansas-May 6, 1861; North Carolina-May 20, 1861; Tennessee-June 8, 1861} didn't actually secede until AFTER Lincoln decided to invade the now sovereign soil of the Confederacy). After several years and much bloodshed, Lincoln won.

What you said was, "...it still DOES stand for "Southern Values" because the Army of Northern Virginia was fighting to defend those Southern Values...."

What inference were we SUPPOSED to make from that exactly?

There were many more "southern values that I didn't list though... did you miss the "et cetera"?

Here's a copy of the list I made... I'll bold it for you:

(those values being: Honor, Loyalty, Family, Samaritan-ism {helping neighbors or strangers, those in need}, et cetera)

Included in that "et cetera" is things like fair/equal treatment of all citizens by the country's government (in the US it was the Federal Government in Washington DC, in the Confederacy it was the Confederate government in Richmond)... Allowing States to decide things for themselves (state's Rights, which were supposedly guaranteed in the Constitution via the Bill of Rights {10th Amendment}, and restated in the Confederate Constitution {Article VI, Section 6})...

But (and this is why I left those out) those don't apply anymore and are not what current fliers of it are flying it for... because The Civil War determined that States Rights actually DON'T exist.

[dondub]

Apparently the Admin doesn't want me to display that flag (not going to comment further on that though).


How would they be able to tell that your flaunting it that way isn't the same as the flaunting of it done by racists which has morphed it into a racist symbol.

As for "state's rights'? That was considered a racialist code word back in the day of Strom Thurmond running for POTUS as an unrepentant segregationist and racist.

here is a different take on it all:

thefederalist.com/2015/07/20/what-many-americans-get-wrong-about-states-rights/

[Sum Dum Gai]

If a majority of the rest of us view a symbol a certain way than that is what the symbol stands for in popular culture and opinion. What it historically stood for, or what it means to a single individual doesn't matter. I can personally think that the swastika stands for all things manly and awesome, but the rest of the society in which I live thinks that it stands for racism and genocide so if I fly one I shouldn't be surprised when most people think I'm a racist asshole and the few people that give me props for it would actually be racist assholes that I want nothing to do with.

If you personally think that the battle flag of northern Virginia stands for southern values, cool story bro. The rest of us think it's a convenient way for racist assholes to publicly out themselves. Fly that thing with pride, but know that most of us think you're purposefully labeling yourself a racist redneck. It's a free country though, no rule against being an idiot in public.

[verrip1]

Jan 24, 2016 15:17:11 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If a majority of the rest of us view a symbol a certain way than that is what the symbol stands for in popular culture and opinion. What it historically stood for, or what it means to a single individual doesn't matter. I can personally think that the swastika stands for all things manly and awesome, but the rest of the society in which I live thinks that it stands for racism and genocide so if I fly one I shouldn't be surprised when most people think I'm a racist asshole and the few people that give me props for it would actually be racist assholes that I want nothing to do with.

If you personally think that the battle flag of northern Virginia stands for southern values, cool story bro. The rest of us think it's a convenient way for racist assholes to publicly out themselves. Fly that thing with pride, but know that most of us think you're purposefully labeling yourself a racist redneck. It's a free country though, no rule against being an idiot in public.

My, what pretentiousness.  I must have missed the election where you were put in charge of deciding what most people think. 

[billisonboard]

Two documents:
Constitution of the Confederate States
The Constitution of the United States

I encourage people to find the differences between the two. I think it illustrates well the differences between those two "countries".

[Sum Dum Gai]

My, what pretentiousness. I must have missed the election where you were put in charge of deciding what most people think.

You're missing the point. I didn't decide. The public did. Go look up the polling yourself. When they ask Americans if we think the confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism a majority of us say yes. Society decided, based on what the flag was used as a symbol for historically and up to the present day, that on balance it's a symbol of racism. You don't have to agree, but to a majority of the citizenry of your own country that's the statement you make when you use that symbol. What I, or any other single individual, thinks that it stands for is completely irrelevant to what our culture has decided that the symbol stands for. Make sense now?

[dondub]

My, what pretentiousness. I must have missed the election where you were put in charge of deciding what most people think.






Who elected you as the head of the pretentiousness police? How pretentious!