Confederate Battle Flag.

[mmhmm]

Jan 20, 2016 9:15:41 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

They don't bore me, they upset me. So after awhile I just leave the post which is also an option.

I can understand that, zib. I'm sure you're not alone in that regard.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 9:09:49 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Because they enjoy your arguing. Why, I don't know, but they do. I find arguing to be incredibly stressful. 

[happyhoix]

Jan 19, 2016 20:41:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 19, 2016 18:49:06 GMT -5 dondub said:

The Confederate flag is not a racist symbol.

Maybe not to you and other Mason~Dixonites but to a large amount of Americans it surely is whether you like it or not.

They would be what fact checkers like to call "wrong".

I don't agree with a "large amount" of any group just because there is a "large amount" of them... They have to also be right. In this case the "large amount" is not right.

Richard the swastika has an ancient history as a religious symbol. Unfortunately it was picked by the Nazi's to adorn their flag in WWII, and now, for the majority of the world, that red and black swastika sign is a symbol of death camps and the holocaust.

You can't just tell everyone in the world that they have to forget WWII and the Nazi's who used that flag as their symbol, and go back to viewing the swastika as a peaceful religious symbol. You can't erase people's cultural memories.

To most of the world, what is now known as the confederate flag is a symbol for the racial unrest in the 60's. Of young kids getting hosed with water hoses or bitten by dogs. It would be nice to be able to put that genie back in the bottle and make everyone forget the 60's and go back to what the flag was during the Civil War - but you can't. It's sad, it's unfortunate, but you can't reprogram what people know.   

[zibazinski]

There is that. It's a valid point.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 2:35:30 GMT -5 dondub said:

The fact that racists have used it improperly doesn't change what it stands/stood for.

Richard....I see that you are finally coming around and starting to get it. To you it's not a racist symbol. To racists it can be a racist symbol. To observers of that
it can be seen as a racist symbol because that's what racists use it for. Congrats! My work is done here.

I've "gotten it" all along. I never disputed that racists inappropriately use it. I just dispute that IT, ITSELF is a racist symbol. Don't blame the innocent symbol for others abusing it.

It, itself, CAN'T (and shouldn't) be seen as a racist symbol if you actually know the truth.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 9:01:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jan 20, 2016 8:11:16 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I know it is, later. I bite my tongue quite often to keep from saying things I'd sorta like to say but aren't acceptable here. I can either skip over that which offends me, I can put that poster on Ignore, or ... I can disagree with them in a civil manner. Those are my choices, as those are the rules here on YMAM. No name-calling and no personal insults.

mmhmm, Administrator

Shouldn't there be some kind of mechanism to moderate the people indulging in the behaviour other than suck it up and let them carry on?

As has been stated... no one WAS "indulging in the behaviour".

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 9:52:17 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Jan 19, 2016 20:41:30 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

They would be what fact checkers like to call "wrong".

I don't agree with a "large amount" of any group just because there is a "large amount" of them... They have to also be right. In this case the "large amount" is not right.

Richard the swastika has an ancient history as a religious symbol. Unfortunately it was picked by the Nazi's to adorn their flag in WWII, and now, for the majority of the world, that red and black swastika sign is a symbol of death camps and the holocaust.

You can't just tell everyone in the world that they have to forget WWII and the Nazi's who used that flag as their symbol, and go back to viewing the swastika as a peaceful religious symbol. You can't erase people's cultural memories.

To most of the world, what is now known as the confederate flag is a symbol for the racial unrest in the 60's. Of young kids getting hosed with water hoses or bitten by dogs. It would be nice to be able to put that genie back in the bottle and make everyone forget the 60's and go back to what the flag was during the Civil War - but you can't. It's sad, it's unfortunate, but you can't reprogram what people know.   

I would never tell them that. So, put your mind at ease. What I would tell them is don't mix the abuse of the symbol with the original purpose/meaning/use of the symbol.

[billisonboard]

Jan 20, 2016 19:16:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... What I would tell them is don't mix the abuse of the symbol with the original purpose/meaning/use of the symbol.

Here is one statement of its original purpose/meaning/use:

This flag was used by the soldiers of the Army as the de-facto flag as the official flag was too similar to the Union's flag. To avoid confusion on the battlefield, this flag was used consistently by almost the entire army. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Battle_flag

If that is its original purpose/meaning/use, why is it being used off of the battlefield?

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 19:47:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 20, 2016 19:16:23 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... What I would tell them is don't mix the abuse of the symbol with the original purpose/meaning/use of the symbol.

Here is one statement of its original purpose/meaning/use:

This flag was used by the soldiers of the Army as the de-facto flag as the official flag was too similar to the Union's flag. To avoid confusion on the battlefield, this flag was used consistently by almost the entire army. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Battle_flag

If that is its original purpose/meaning/use, why is it being used off of the battlefield?

It "represented the South". A person using it today still uses it to represent the South (and his/her pride in it)... if they are using it properly.

[billisonboard]

Jan 20, 2016 20:08:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 20, 2016 19:47:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Here is one statement of its original purpose/meaning/use:

This flag was used by the soldiers of the Army as the de-facto flag as the official flag was too similar to the Union's flag. To avoid confusion on the battlefield, this flag was used consistently by almost the entire army. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Battle_flag

If that is its original purpose/meaning/use, why is it being used off of the battlefield?

It "represented the South". A person using it today still uses it to represent the South (and his/her pride in it)... if they are using it properly.

No, it was a rallying point for soldiers on a battlefield.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 20:21:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 20, 2016 20:08:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It "represented the South". A person using it today still uses it to represent the South (and his/her pride in it)... if they are using it properly.

No, it was a rallying point for soldiers on a battlefield.

That was ONE use. It wasn't the ONLY use.

[dondub]

if they are using it properly.


As you mentioned yesterday some use it as a racist symbol and because of that others believe it is a racist symbol. And to those that use it as such it is, so those that believe it is are not wrong. They just have a different opinion than the rebel apologistas.

[Deleted]

A friend of mine that's from the South said that displaying the Confederate Flag is usually an indication of a trailer park or in breeding  

He can say that, he's from the south

[Deleted]

He can say that. Doesn't mean he's right though.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2016 23:09:01 GMT -5 dondub said:

if they are using it properly.


As you mentioned yesterday some use it as a racist symbol and because of that others believe it is a racist symbol. And to those that use it as such it is, so those that believe it is are not wrong. They just have a different opinion than the rebel apologistas.

If I use a fishing rod (technically, the line from the rod... but it's attached to a reel that's attached to a rod, so...) to "fish" wiring in a house I'm building... does that make all fishing rods only good for "fishing" wiring? What about that brand and model of rod? Just the line maybe?

Those that believe it's a racist symbol are, indeed wrong. Misuse of something doesn't make something only good for that use.

[billisonboard]

Jan 20, 2016 21:41:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 20, 2016 20:21:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

No, it was a rallying point for soldiers on a battlefield.

That was ONE use. It wasn't the ONLY use.

But it was the original purpose/meaning/use.

[fishy999]

Jan 20, 2016 23:12:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

A friend of mine that's from the South said that displaying the Confederate Flag is usually an indication of a trailer park or in breeding  

He can say that, he's from the south

Takes more that the flag alone- has to be at least two displays.  A Confederate flag plus truck nuts- for example   Foxworthy could settle it.  You might be a racist if............

[dondub]

Those that believe it's a racist symbol are, indeed wrong. Misuse of something doesn't make something only good for that use.



As you mentioned yesterday, some use it as a racist symbol and because of that others believe it is a racist symbol. And to those that use it as such it is, so those that believe it is are not wrong. They just have a different opinion than the rebel apologistas.

So if you don't want anybody to look at it as being a racist symbol perhaps you should concentrate on convincing the racists to stop using it as such. Until then, those that see it being used as a racist symbol will, in fact, be right that it is a racist symbol because racists are using it as such.

PS: good luck catching any fish in that house! What bait are you using?

[happyhoix]

Jan 20, 2016 23:53:21 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 20, 2016 23:09:01 GMT -5 dondub said:

if they are using it properly.


As you mentioned yesterday some use it as a racist symbol and because of that others believe it is a racist symbol. And to those that use it as such it is, so those that believe it is are not wrong. They just have a different opinion than the rebel apologistas.

If I use a fishing rod (technically, the line from the rod... but it's attached to a reel that's attached to a rod, so...) to "fish" wiring in a house I'm building... does that make all fishing rods only good for "fishing" wiring? What about that brand and model of rod? Just the line maybe?

Those that believe it's a racist symbol are, indeed wrong. Misuse of something doesn't make something only good for that use.

Richard I understand what you're saying and I sympathize. I appreciate your devotion to your flag. 

Unfortunately, racist people have seized on that flag and made it their symbol. Saying that shouldn't be so doesn't make it so. The confederate flag has become a victim of nasty racists.

Georgia's state flag is the Georgia confederate  battle flag with the state seal stuck in the center of the circle of stars. As far as I know, there hasn't been much controversy over the state using a confederate flag - because I don't think most people realize that's what it is. It hasn't been co-opted and made famous by racists. So maybe you could pick another Confederate flag - maybe the Tennessee 1st regiment flag - and fly that proudly at your house, like I do my Pennsylvania battle flag.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 0:14:04 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Jan 20, 2016 23:12:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

A friend of mine that's from the South said that displaying the Confederate Flag is usually an indication of a trailer park or in breeding  

He can say that, he's from the south

Takes more that the flag alone- has to be at least two displays.  A Confederate flag plus truck nuts- for example   Foxworthy could settle it.  You might be a racist if............

......You keep on looking for symbols to apply your racism to.  

[mmhmm]

This was the 3rd official flag of the Confederacy. The previous two designs were rejected because of confusion with the Union flag (1st design) and resembling a white flag of surrender (2nd flag). The one being used currently was never a flag of the Confederacy. It was a battle flag.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 1:41:39 GMT -5 dondub said:

Those that believe it's a racist symbol are, indeed wrong. Misuse of something doesn't make something only good for that use.



As you mentioned yesterday, some use it as a racist symbol and because of that others believe it is a racist symbol. And to those that use it as such it is, so those that believe it is are not wrong. They just have a different opinion than the rebel apologistas.

So if you don't want anybody to look at it as being a racist symbol perhaps you should concentrate on convincing the racists to stop using it as such. Until then, those that see it being used as a racist symbol will, in fact, be right that it is a racist symbol because racists are using it as such.

PS: good luck catching any fish in that house! What bait are you using?

Those that believe it to be a racist symbol, because racists are improperly using it, are wrong. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.

PS: wasn't fishing for fish... was fishing the walls for wiring.

[billisonboard]

Jan 21, 2016 19:09:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... Those that believe it to be a racist symbol, because racists are improperly using it, are wrong. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.

...

Who is to say which use is appropriate and which use is inappropriate. It was a flag used in battle as a reference for troops. All other uses for it have been created since that original usage.

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 19:16:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 21, 2016 19:09:24 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

... Those that believe it to be a racist symbol, because racists are improperly using it, are wrong. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.

...

Who is to say which use is appropriate and which use is inappropriate. It was a flag used in battle as a reference for troops. All other uses for it have been created since that original usage.

I don't argue that point. BUT... It was also a "Parade Standard" (not "walking down main street" parade... "Military formation" parade), as well as an encampment Division marker.

The point it made was "We are from The South. This our banner. It's who we are".

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2016 19:27:03 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 21, 2016 19:16:05 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Who is to say which use is appropriate and which use is inappropriate. It was a flag used in battle as a reference for troops. All other uses for it have been created since that original usage.

I don't argue that point. BUT... It was also a "Parade Standard" (not "walking down main street" parade... "Military formation" parade), as well as an encampment Division marker.

The point it made was "We are from The South. This our banner. It's who we are".

It isn't a banner that's indicative of the Confederacy as a whole. It's not "the banner of the South". If anything is it would be the flag of the Confederacy (first, second, or third). The one being bandied about is a flag of battle and was used by individual states (many states had banners that were very similar), not the Confederacy. I think that's the point people are trying to make. It would seem the flag of the Confederacy would better represent southern pride than a battle flag that was used (in several versions) by individual states.

[dondub]

Those that believe it to be a racist symbol, because racists are improperly using it, are wrong. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.


Because racists have used it as a racist symbol it has come to represent that racism. Thus, those that sense that it is a racist symbol are simply acknowledging that racist symbolism, done by racists promoting their racism, has made that flag a symbol of racism. Not too hard to figure out, it just differs from the opinion you happen to hold.


PS: wasn't fishing for fish... was fishing the walls for wiring.



So catch and release then?

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 19:39:30 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 21, 2016 19:27:03 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I don't argue that point. BUT... It was also a "Parade Standard" (not "walking down main street" parade... "Military formation" parade), as well as an encampment Division marker.

The point it made was "We are from The South. This our banner. It's who we are".

It isn't a banner that's indicative of the Confederacy as a whole. It's not "the banner of the South". If anything is it would be the flag of the Confederacy (first, second, or third). The one being bandied about is a flag of battle and was used by individual states (many states had banners that were very similar), not the Confederacy. I think that's the point people are trying to make. It would seem the flag of the Confederacy would better represent southern pride than a battle flag that was used (in several versions) by individual states.

I don't argue that point either.

The problem with using the TRUE "Flag(s) of the Confederacy" is most people now wouldn't know what you were trying to say you are proud of if you flew them.

Show 1,000 people The "Stars & Bars" (flag #1) and most people would say "State flag of... {and they'd name a state}" or "Alternative version of 'Old Glory'". There are even many in the south, that are proud southerners and non-racists, that don't know the Three Flags of the Confederacy.

[mmhmm]

Jan 21, 2016 20:38:04 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Jan 21, 2016 19:39:30 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

It isn't a banner that's indicative of the Confederacy as a whole. It's not "the banner of the South". If anything is it would be the flag of the Confederacy (first, second, or third). The one being bandied about is a flag of battle and was used by individual states (many states had banners that were very similar), not the Confederacy. I think that's the point people are trying to make. It would seem the flag of the Confederacy would better represent southern pride than a battle flag that was used (in several versions) by individual states.

I don't argue that point either.

The problem with using the TRUE "Flag(s) of the Confederacy" is most people now wouldn't know what you were trying to say you are proud of if you flew them.

Show 1,000 people The "Stars & Bars" (flag #1) and most people would say "State flag of... {and they'd name a state}" or "Alternative version of 'Old Glory'". There are even many in the south, that are proud southerners and non-racists, that don't know the Three Flags of the Confederacy.

In my opinion, if they're proud of the south and proud of their heritage they should be proud enough to learn something about it, including the flag(s) that actually represents the Confederacy. Ignorance is no excuse and shouldn't be entertained.

[fishy999]

Jan 21, 2016 14:30:20 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Jan 21, 2016 0:14:04 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Takes more that the flag alone- has to be at least two displays.  A Confederate flag plus truck nuts- for example   Foxworthy could settle it.  You might be a racist if............

......You keep on looking for symbols to apply your racism to.  

Redneck isn't a race.   It's a stereotype anyway- just as likely that some southern white man wearing a wifebeater drinking Budweiser in a confederate flag koozie is a racist as is the chance some inner city black male with low pants and a hoodie is a 'thug'. 

I reserve the right to bash rednecks   

[Deleted]

Jan 21, 2016 20:41:24 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jan 21, 2016 20:38:04 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I don't argue that point either.

The problem with using the TRUE "Flag(s) of the Confederacy" is most people now wouldn't know what you were trying to say you are proud of if you flew them.

Show 1,000 people The "Stars & Bars" (flag #1) and most people would say "State flag of... {and they'd name a state}" or "Alternative version of 'Old Glory'". There are even many in the south, that are proud southerners and non-racists, that don't know the Three Flags of the Confederacy.

In my opinion, if they're proud of the south and proud of their heritage they should be proud enough to learn something about it, including the flag(s) that actually represents the Confederacy. Ignorance is no excuse and shouldn't be entertained.

I agree that ignorance of self is no excuse... I don't agree that ignorance of others isn't an allowable exception to your proposition though... because due to the ignorance of others, The Battle Flag has come to be associated with the things worthy of Pride in that south, more-so than the actual "official flags of the Confederacy as a union".

I'm VERY well versed on which flags are for what and I specifically DON'T use the appropriate one(s) because too many people would be confused. So when I use the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, I do so because I know OTHERS see it as "representative of the South" (even if some of them also mistakenly see it as "representative of Southern racism")